Challenge 24 vote observation (problem ?)

My favorite was "ED" - I think it was

1ofUs! said:

technically the best and I don't know why, but I just liked it. At
the same time when making my entry decisions I knew that "Me" would
draw the most attention. And guess what? "ED" got neither comment
or vote. lol, while 'Me" placed.

Click to expand...

I thought that was funny, too.

I really liked the lighting and composition of ED.

ann
--
Canadian Ann
http://www.pbase.com/canadian_ann
http://www.stfchallenge.com
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html

Hi everyone,

I think this discussion is good, and one that has been brought up at least 2 or 3 times since the challenges began. Seems very cyclical. All are good points, but I think we need to be careful to not analyze how we are to "win" a challenge. When that started being done before it kind of took the spirit away.

Initially, 5 photos were submitted. It got to be too many, so we cut back to three. Participation also dropped, and there were a couple challenges that were on two pages of entries. Just a couple challenges ago the submissions were increased to 5 again. That definitely seems to be too many. Very hard to focus on them.

Above all else, we need to keep in mind that this is not a photo competition. Well, at least that wasn't the spirit in which the challenges were started. It's an opportunity to challenge ourselves and to shoot things that maybe we wouldn't normally shoot. Sometimes you'll like the subject, sometimes you won't. Sometimes people will like your shots, sometimes they won't.

It's also important to remember that we are amateurs judging amateurs. STF members are at a different "place" in their photography, and hence will look at photos differently. The more experienced, the more it may take to "wow". Some members won't vote for a photo if the technical elements aren't there, some will vote photo subject, disregarding the technical merits. This is all okay.

And interestingly, I'm not sure that photo placement has anything to do with whether a photo gets a vote. It will impact it's number of views, but not necessarily improve its odds of "winning". I think there have been several late entries that have won. Oddly, I had planned on voting on Dee's, but wanted to check the later entries. Then I forgot to go back to Dee's. In effect the opposite thing happened in my experience.

Anyway, I'm very tired and rambling, but wanted to throw my thoughts in.

Hope everyone had a nice weekend!

Jim

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

LOL! Really??? You don't lie awake at night dreaming them up????? LOLOLOLOL

I loved your eye for coke but couldn't figure out why I liked it, then I didn't like it because I didn't understand it. Then I wondered how you had such cooperative models! You must be a fun parent! Your kids (I hope they are your kids, opps!) join in the fun and support you so well!

I always look forward to see what you will come up with next, but alas, I don't always take the time to appreciate you....

Dee

Fremiet59632 said:

I also use the competition as a test ground for new concepts I am
thinking about (no, Dee I don't lie awake at night dreaming these
things up)

Click to expand...

This has been an interesting thread, and it's been interesting how the same topics, ideas and suggestions are brought out time after time. After almost 1.5 years I've seen people come and people go and it's amazing that the challenge and the spirit of the challenge has lasted this long!

The original intent of the challenges, as I understand it, was to have fun, to share ideas and concepts and to learn from each other.

When photo submission was limited, everyone was upset. They couldn't pick just one, they wanted to share more than one thought or direction they took in solving the challenge, it was too difficult for them to decide. So the "standard" limit has ranged from 3 to 5. The more entries makes it harder for the host to track and keep count of votes. Three is a good number, but I guess I was sort of hoping people would want to try different things with knives, forks and spoons. A traditional setting perhaps with beautiful old silverware, a store setting or antique shop setting, then a contemporary setting or an abstract type shot, a macro perhaps, or making knives, forks and spoons into an art form itself. For that reason I decided to allow 4 entries per gallery.

As for the anonymous posting that has been done before and it really doesn't make any difference. The challenge that was won by such an anonymous posting -- the dog with the shadow -- was so anonymous that someone else had to host the challenge because the anonymous poster couldn't be found until he came online after some time and saw that he'd won. So much for "fixed" or "favortism" in the voting....

As for me, personally, I don't care if my best friend posts a photo -- if I like something better, they know me well enough to know I'll vote for what I like, not who took the photo.

Since the spirit of the challenges is still FUN first, sharing and learning second I'd be opposed to limiting the pictures to only one entry. However, the next host is free to change the rules as he or she sees fit. And the host after that can change them back, or change them to something different.

It has always been a disappointment that more people don't vote. I even posted a link to the challenge in Samples and Galleries forum inviting people to vote -- no dice!

One can't force people to comment or to vote -- remember this is voluntary, it's supposed to be fun.

A suggestion is to post your photos on photosig or other photo sharing places and see what critiques and suggestions you get -- but then you have to do your part.

I've always felt that people are unsure about how to comment or how to judge a photo. I don't know how to give commenting/judging lessons to people and have yet to find a down to earth, truly practical site online that would help solve this dilema.

Most of us are Sony camera owners, not art students, not graphic artists, not fine artists, we aren't trained in criticism or how to see, how to judge, etc.

So where does that leave us? Vote for what you like. Vote for what moves you. Vote for what you would hang on your wall -- vote for what makes you laugh.

Me, if I see a picture and my gut feeling is, Oh my, I wish I had taken that photo -- that's probably the one that's going to get my vote.

Dee

Suggestion to the STF'ers who like the anonymous 1 entry idea. Post one entry under a nom-de-lens. I am going to do that in any event. It is within Dees guidelines and should make things fun and interesting....and MUCH easier for those with dial up, and those who have trouble taking the time to scrutinize all entries.

Any takers? ....of course you may want to stay even more anonymous and just do it.

Good luck.

Fremiet

Ann Chaikin said:

Actually the winning photo in ch24 was in fact quite subtle. This
also killed one of my "what gets votes" theories that bright colors
often win. Dee's entry was wonderfully subtle and made me glad to
see that subtle can win. Ann

Click to expand...

I wasn't really 'in' on Ch 24 Ann, (but I did take a peek ). I agree and disagree with you about Dee's entry (and perhaps this is what makes it a winner) - Dee's winner has both an immediate appeal in thumbnail (to me anyway) AND a subtlety which rewards closer inspection.

I think your theory remains more or less intact.

--
David Barker

Ann Chaikin said:

............ I'm putting
aside my frustration and chugging along into the next [challenge] ... Bring
me those utensils and let me have a go at it.

Click to expand...

As long as you mean cutlery, not utensils (see Dee's rules and replies to queries about interpretation thereof) ;-)

I can't help thinking Dee has missed a trick here - there are so many fascinating utensils and gadgets in kitchens around the place, and we won't get to see them :-(

--
David Barker

.McFly said:

... I am in full support of anonymous submissions-
although it will be difficult to monitor how many submissions each
artist has made, if those submissions are anonymous.

Click to expand...

Good point.

.McFly said:

Perhaps the Host could actually post the submissions.

Click to expand...

This could make winning a bit of a poisoned chalice...

.McFly said:

It took me over 3 hours to vote- and I have a cable modem.
I looked at each and every photograph, many several times over.
I cannot honestly say I can put this kind of time into voting each and
every challenge.

Click to expand...

Agreed - and this makes entering difficult if you would feel obliged to judge too.

--
David Barker

Jimmy Chen said:

Jimmy Chen said:

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,

Click to expand...

What do you expect? Early entries have had more exposure time for
people to look at. You cannot expect entries from the last day to
have as many views as those that has been in there for two week,
can you?

Click to expand...

You can if (as has been suggested) the photos are posted by the host. They could all 'go public' at more or less the same time. This would of course be after the entry deadline. The whole cycle might take a bit longer between challenges, as there would have to be enough viewing and voting time after all the photos became viewable.

Jimmy Chen said:

Everything you pointed out are good observations, but with that
said, everything you pointed out has also been discussed many many
many challenges ago, as far back as 5 or 6 I believe. You can
search the forum for old posts on these discussions ...

Click to expand...

Maybe it's time to do something about it then!

--
David Barker

David Cappello said:

... I was shocked at the number of entries vs. the
number of votes. Perhaps make it mandatory to vote. In other words
in order for your photo to be valid you have to submit a vote on the
rest of the challenge otherwise your photo gets moved to honorable
mention
spot. Sorry if this was/is a PFSI (Fast Frequently Suggested Idea)

Click to expand...

Whether new or old it sounds quite a good idea - I just feel sorry for the winners who have would have to remember to take all this stuff into account. I console myself with the thought that it's unlikely to be me. lol

--
David Barker

fremiet said:

Suggestion to the STF'ers who like the anonymous 1 entry idea.
Post one entry under a nom-de-lens. I am going to do that in any
event. It is within Dees guidelines and should make things fun and
interesting....and MUCH easier for those with dial up, and those
who have trouble taking the time to scrutinize all entries.

Click to expand...

I've just blown my cover out of the water, but I wanted to ask how this would make things easier for those with dial-up. Unless everyone takes this approach won't we still have a potential mountain of multiple entries from non-anonymous, non-single-entry members to wade through? (You can't wade through a mountain, but you know what I mean.)

I don't think I have understood fully.

--
David Barker

While I'd like to agree with you in principle, the fact is that voting MAKES it a competition...ergo...if we want it to truly be, as you say, Jim, "an opportunity to challenge ourselves and to shoot things that maybe we wouldn't normally

shoot" then maybe what should be considered is getting rid of the voting, and place more emphasis on comments (which, hopefully, would have real substantive value) on the actual photo pages.

Loren

Shutter said:

Hi everyone,

Above all else, we need to keep in mind that this is not a photo
competition. Well, at least that wasn't the spirit in which the
challenges were started. It's an opportunity to challenge
ourselves and to shoot things that maybe we wouldn't normally
shoot. Sometimes you'll like the subject, sometimes you won't.
Sometimes people will like your shots, sometimes they won't.
Jim

Click to expand...

http://www.pbase.com/lorenbc/
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=4994

David Barker91965 said:

You can if (as has been suggested) the photos are posted by the
host. They could all 'go public' at more or less the same time.

Click to expand...

This is totally different then the current method, isnt it?

David Barker91965 said:

Maybe it's time to do something about it then!

Click to expand...

And people have been. Owner names, no owner names, voting this way, voting that way, allow major photo editing, dont allow major photo editing, and many others have gone thru its love-and-hate periods ...

Since the final rules of the given challange is set by the host, what is disallowed under one host may come right back and be allowed by the next host.

--
jc
F707 w/ Nikon 5T/6T
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Jimmy Chen said:

Jimmy Chen said:

You can if (as has been suggested) the photos are posted by the
host. They could all 'go public' at more or less the same time.

Click to expand...

This is totally different then the current method, isnt it?

Click to expand...

Yes - that's the whole point of it. There would be problems of course...

Jimmy Chen said:

Jimmy Chen said:

Maybe it's time to do something about it then!

Click to expand...

And people have been. Owner names, no owner names, voting this way,
voting that way, allow major photo editing, dont allow major photo
editing, and many others have gone thru its love-and-hate periods
...

Since the final rules of the given challange is set by the host,
what is disallowed under one host may come right back and be
allowed by the next host.

Click to expand...

It might. Over time what works best will prevail.

--
David Barker

Mcfly, I'm with you, one photo, anonymous submission, makes it fair for everyone............and another one for good measure.....anyone voting must have examined the photo and not the thumbnail !

.McFly said:

I too would really enjoy anonymous submissions. Being a newcomer
to this forum, I found it extremely intimidating to submit pictures
to a group I am just getting to know, not to mention submitting
comments when I had no idea how they would be absorbed. The tribal
patterns within this group are strong and no doubt can influence
the voting.

This challenge was frustrating, as the subject matter was broad and
maybe even a bit separated. I found that some folks were strongly
pulled towards the 'graffiti' pics, while others were more
approving of traditional 'Signs' photographs. This made the voting
that much more fragmented in my opinion. In addition, I felt that
in some cases, people were voting more for the artwork in the
graffiti, as opposed to the effort put into the photograph itself.
In essense, this was a TOUGH challenge all the way! In any event,
it was indeed fun, and I am looking forward to future challenges.

As stated above, I am in full support of anonymous submissions-
although it will be difficult to monitor how many submissions each
artist has made, if those submissions are anonymous. Perhaps the
Host could actually post the submissions. It took me over 3 hours
to vote- and I have a cable modem. I looked at each and every
photograph, many several times over. I cannot honestly say I can
put this kind of time into voting each and every challenge.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.fototime.com/inv/757AE7C15569148
You only live once ,and always suck the lemon.

have a nice day and don't loose your head, it will show your lack of maturity and your age.

You're right David. However things have to start somewhere. If I cut down my entries by 4, that's a start....and it will be good for me to have to make MY hard choice. If everyone who expressed an interest in doing it actually did it the entries would be down by, what, up to 40? The anonymity sounds like a lot of fun and seems to answer the concern some have about names influencing voting. So, yes it's a drop in the bucket....but drops add up ...as my water bill from the last month with a leaky faucet painfully demonstrated....this, of course, would be pain free and, with luck somewhat painkilling

Fremiet

David Barker said:

fremiet said:

Suggestion to the STF'ers who like the anonymous 1 entry idea.
Post one entry under a nom-de-lens. I am going to do that in any
event. It is within Dees guidelines and should make things fun and
interesting....and MUCH easier for those with dial up, and those
who have trouble taking the time to scrutinize all entries.

Click to expand...

I've just blown my cover out of the water, but I wanted to ask how
this would make things easier for those with dial-up. Unless
everyone takes this approach won't we still have a potential
mountain of multiple entries from non-anonymous, non-single-entry
members to wade through? (You can't wade through a mountain, but
you know what I mean.)

I don't think I have understood fully.

--
David Barker

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/fremiet

fremiet said:

If I
cut down my entries by 4, that's a start....and it will be good for
me to have to make MY hard choice. If everyone who expressed an
interest in doing it actually did it the entries would be down by,
what, up to 40? The anonymity sounds like a lot of fun and seems
to answer the concern some have about names influencing voting.
So, yes it's a drop in the bucket....but drops add up

Click to expand...

I'm right with you, voting with my feet as it were. I will try to make a point of entering - anonymously - and hope others do likewise.

--
David Barker

If you enter an entry as "someone" or anonymous for this current challenge, you will have to reveal your name the last day of the challenge in order for your entry to be considered for voting. I can not in good conscience announce that "someone" won the challenge and then wait for "someone" to come forth.

The next host can decide to do an anonymous one entry per person challenge if they wish.

Remember you don't have to post 4 entries -- I didn't the last challenge.

It's been pretty repeatable that there are more photographers who post photos than actually vote. Voting is open to anyone in dpreview, and anyone who is in STF and it's always been this way.

My take on the challenges is that people who don't enter, don't want to vote.

Part of my philosophy on this challenge is that it is a learning and sharing challenge and the more we see how others solve the challenge the more we learn as individuals.

I limited the challenge to knives, forks and spoons for a reason. The next winner can do cutlery or what ever topic they choose. Can't think of what to do with knives, forks and spoons? Well, that's the challenge. Start thinking!

I just wish some of you would do some searching and read some of the suggestions posted since the challenges began. Many different tactics were tried. Fortunately the challenges are still working today -- and hopefully they are still fun and educational to us as photographers, no matter where we are on the curve, newbie, beginner, intermediate, advanced or pro.

Happy Clicking!

Dee

Dee, I am only interested in working within the original rules you stipulated, and you made no stipulation about entering under another "handle".

When I write of a nom de lens I simply mean that I will substitute another name for my own. Whether I write John Potter, or Anthony B does not really matter, what would matter is that "Fremiet" would be missing.

Part of the goal for me is to see whether I can put up something which people do not recognize as my work, that might be quite a challenge in itself. If somehow you know it is mine, feel free to disqualify it on the last day, that way you will have your way AND I wil have discovered how the experiment went.

As always in STF others will do as they please, within the rules including entering under their own names. I'm not sure mandating that people reveal who they are does anything other than allow previously held notions about a person's style to percolate into the interpretation of the new piece, and this experiment for me is a really intersting one. I'd feel much better if you'd OK it.

I figured you'd feel OK about the one entry thing.....that decision is for others, the nom de lens obviously for me. Thanks for responding.

Fremiet

Dee Golden said:

If you enter an entry as "someone" or anonymous for this current
challenge, you will have to reveal your name the last day of the
challenge in order for your entry to be considered for voting. I
can not in good conscience announce that "someone" won the
challenge and then wait for "someone" to come forth.

The next host can decide to do an anonymous one entry per person
challenge if they wish.

Remember you don't have to post 4 entries -- I didn't the last
challenge.

It's been pretty repeatable that there are more photographers who
post photos than actually vote. Voting is open to anyone in
dpreview, and anyone who is in STF and it's always been this way.

My take on the challenges is that people who don't enter, don't
want to vote.

Part of my philosophy on this challenge is that it is a learning
and sharing challenge and the more we see how others solve the
challenge the more we learn as individuals.

I limited the challenge to knives, forks and spoons for a reason.
The next winner can do cutlery or what ever topic they choose.
Can't think of what to do with knives, forks and spoons? Well,
that's the challenge. Start thinking!

I just wish some of you would do some searching and read some of
the suggestions posted since the challenges began. Many different
tactics were tried. Fortunately the challenges are still working
today -- and hopefully they are still fun and educational to us as
photographers, no matter where we are on the curve, newbie,
beginner, intermediate, advanced or pro.

Happy Clicking!

Dee

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/fremiet

I agree with Ann, Dee's winner was subtle in the colors. Now about the other theory, do you remember if she entered it early on in the contest?

Lisa

Ann Chaikin said:

David Barker said:

I'm pleased this thread was started, because it has helped me to
consolidate some half-formed thoughts.

I haven't entered any challenges since Entrances and Exits (I think
that was the title), partly because of being away from home quite a
bit this summer, but mostly because I knew how much time would need
to be devoted to looking through the photos for judging. I wouldn't
feel comfortable about entering without putting in the effort to
look properly at the other entries.

However, I couldn't help feeling that some of the more subtle
photos were being overlooked in favour of those with more immediacy
of impact at thumbnail size. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with
this in a way - there is after all nothing to stop us all taking
this into consideration when shooting our eligible photos, but
personally I am against this approach.

My suggestion would be to limit the number of entries to one per
member. This would enable everyone to judge all the entries at full
size without taking up too much time.

--
David Barker

Click to expand...

--
also known as PT Kitty > ^..^

http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries

Click to expand...

--
My gallery: http://silvercharm.digitalphotochat.com/gallery
POTDs at DPC: http://www.digitalphotocontest.com/profile.asp?pid=11986