Challenge 24 vote observation (problem ?)

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote. There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Hi Nuyah,

Welcome to the world of trying to psych out the challenges!

Of course earlier entries are viewed far more often than later entries! Early bird catches the worm? However, look at all the previous 20 or so challenges and you will find that the first entries are not necessarily the winners.

Before voting many voters "refresh" their memory by looking at the tumbnails.

Surprise, surprise, many of us have limited time, and worse yet, limited bandwidth, like dial up!!!! That's why I recommend everyone keep the images about 640 x 480 to 800 or 900 pixels wide. If your image doesn't take all day to come in more people will look at it.

Voting in the challenges (exhibition and eligible) can take up to 2 to 3 hours on a dial up modem. That is a LOT of time and that's why the people who take the time to vote are so appreciated.

Some people actually use a scoring system assigning points for technique, composition, etc. before picking their winning entries.

If your thumbnail does not make a good presentation a lot of people will not click on it to see a larger version.

Entries with a lot of comments do not always win.

I'm sure others can add more challenge-isms to this thread!

If you think your entry needs to be seen at full size you can add that to the title and hope that people will look. Sometimes people will post a comment in the challenge thread saying that this photo or that photo really needs to be seen at the original size (not the camera original size) to be appreciated.

A way to quickly judge your photo is to post it on photosig.com and see what kind of reaction it gets. Hmmm, what gets votes at photosig? (other than XXX and pretty girls) -- bright colors, saturated blue skies, good composition, unusual subject matter, ordinary subject matter photographed at a different angle, etc.

Sometimes a perfectly good photo will not win the challenge when it is compared to the other challenge entries. Other factors come into play. How well does the photo fit the challenge? How does the photo compare to other photos in the challenge? Is the thumbnail bright, colorful, and composed well? Is there too much detail, are colors too close to each other so there's no contrast in the thumbnail? Is the photo something that has been done to death and people are tired of that technique? How original is the photo and does it stand out as a unique solution to the challenge? Look at the Coke Can Challenge, for example.

Challenge entrants take the challenge seriously -- for it is supposed to be a challenge. I took over 600 photos for fountain challenge and got very little votes. I took less than 20 for the Signs/Graffiti challenge and won.

In a lot of cases (if not all) it's the "thinking" behind the photo that counts most, followed by composition, then technique. Others may disagree.

If you actually take the time to do a search in this forum you will see some threads and lots of discussions about thumbnails versus looking at the larger image in the challenges.

That said, remember that the challenges are supposed to be FUN...

Dee

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

nuyah said:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Click to expand...

I don't think this is a new thing. Many people have limited amounts of time to spend, especially with dial-up. The thumb has to be interesting or people won't open the original. This is especially true with large numbers of entries allowed per person.

MFC's stats show 306 photos by 77 photographers, an average of 4 (actually 3.9740259 for the math purists) photos per photog. That's a ton of photos. There is simply no way I could view each original on my dial-up. I don't have the time to spend.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/inbox

I had not considered the dial-up problem...........

In fact, even with high speed, it took a while to get
through all the mouse clicks.

If I were smart enough, I'd write myself a script (or whatever) to download a complete challenge while I have a cup of tea.

It would take a bit of disk space, but I could breeze through them and even save my favorites.

Kerry Pierce said:

nuyah said:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Click to expand...

I don't think this is a new thing. Many people have limited amounts
of time to spend, especially with dial-up. The thumb has to be
interesting or people won't open the original. This is especially
true with large numbers of entries allowed per person.

MFC's stats show 306 photos by 77 photographers, an average of 4
(actually 3.9740259 for the math purists) photos per photog. That's
a ton of photos. There is simply no way I could view each original
on my dial-up. I don't have the time to spend.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/inbox

Click to expand...

Yes, I noticed that since I entered the last three entries in the exhibition category. Two out of three were older POTD winners and only one of them got a vote. And the viewings on them were all less than five hits at the end of voting. I looked because I was the second to last voter too.

Since they were exhibition I didn't mind not getting votes, they were there to share over time, not just during the voting period. Since the voting has finished one of the photos has had about ten more hits so people have decided to at least look at it after the voting.

I also think some people pretty much already knew what they were going to vote for before all the entries were entered because they had been looking at the entries over time. I tend to procrastinate on the voting and the entering and sometimes miss the deadlines of either entering or even voting. That's my own fault, no one elses.

And thanks for voting my Rockies Finale as a tie for third place in the exhibition. That would have been my just under the wire entry except that MFC had just extended the deadline. Also seeing McFly's Mile High Glow entry is what reminded me about my Rockies sign. So special thanks to McFly for giving me the idea to enter it.

Lisa

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

--
My gallery: http://silvercharm.digitalphotochat.com/gallery
POTDs at DPC: http://www.digitalphotocontest.com/profile.asp?pid=11986

I do think the challenges place a huge demand on people if they are to vote with care and thoroughness. And it's true that there's a fall-off in hits as an image nears the end of the entry list. People get "full" pretty quickly! Especially if there are bandwidth problems.

That said, I cannot for the life of me figure out what it takes to win a Challenge. Not that the winners aren't usually fine photos, of course they are. But like Lisa I've had POTD winners draw virtually no votes in the Challenges. Clearly, some different standard is being applied... but what it is, I don't have a clue and am getting pretty frustrated over it. But the good news is that if one DOESN'T have it all psyched out, the opportunities for entering just for the sake of the learning experience in shooting something out of your beaten track is very worthwhile.

So I'm determined to get over the fustration and just work on taking shots I think are technically and artistically worthwhile on the Challenge theme.. . and forget winning/losing as much as possible.

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

I was making an observation and did not want to have a "fun" event take on a controversial note............

Perhaps we could have a challenge once in a while that limited the number of entries per person to one ot two.

That would make viewing all of the entries easier for the bandwidth deprived.

erichocinc said:

That said, I cannot for the life of me figure out what it takes to
win a Challenge. Not that the winners aren't usually fine photos,
of course they are. But like Lisa I've had POTD winners draw
virtually no votes in the Challenges. Clearly, some different
standard is being applied... but what it is, I don't have a clue
and am getting pretty frustrated over it. But the good news is
that if one DOESN'T have it all psyched out, the opportunities for
entering just for the sake of the learning experience in shooting
something out of your beaten track is very worthwhile.

So I'm determined to get over the fustration and just work on
taking shots I think are technically and artistically worthwhile on
the Challenge theme.. . and forget winning/losing as much as
possible.

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

Click to expand...

nuyah said:

I was making an observation and did not want to have a "fun" event
take on a controversial note............

Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong or controversial with your observation or the posts that followed, IMO. People should feel free to express themselves on the matter.

nuyah said:

Perhaps we could have a challenge once in a while that limited the
number of entries per person to one ot two.

That would make viewing all of the entries easier for the bandwidth
deprived.

Click to expand...

I don't think it's simply a matter of bandwidth limitations, although that is certainly a good part of it. It's also a matter of logistics. Wading through 300+ photos with the intent of evaluating each one is a daunting task, with or without cable. The fact that there were 77 photogs and only 42 people cast votes is interesting stat. Why didn't the 35 or so photogs vote?

I see the same thing on photosig. Lots of photos, very few are viewed by many people, even fewer are given comments. Why? Dunno. Part of it is that there are a lot of people who want people to comment on the photos they submit, but they don't want to be bothered with commenting on the photos submitted by others.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/inbox

Well, I think you're missing the key statistic on your graph, namely number of votes. There are many many reasons why people vote certain ways. The way I see it you're asking two questions:

1. Does order affect votes?
2. Does viewing size affect votes?

Why don't you load the votes per photo into that graph and see how that looks. It doesn't really matter how many people look at a picture full on, they may vote for it just by the thumbnail. And one could say that people vote more for the pictures at the end because they are fresh in the mind.

Just some thoughts.
red

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

Ahhh.... I think what you guys are describing is called "subjective!"

erichocinc said:

That said, I cannot for the life of me figure out what it takes to
win a Challenge. Not that the winners aren't usually fine photos,
of course they are. But like Lisa I've had POTD winners draw
virtually no votes in the Challenges. Clearly, some different
standard is being applied... but what it is, I don't have a clue
and am getting pretty frustrated over it. But the good news is
that if one DOESN'T have it all psyched out, the opportunities for
entering just for the sake of the learning experience in shooting
something out of your beaten track is very worthwhile.

So I'm determined to get over the fustration and just work on
taking shots I think are technically and artistically worthwhile on
the Challenge theme.. . and forget winning/losing as much as
possible.

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

Click to expand...

Its a good discussion. "as iron sharpens iron, so one man to another" Makes things better and brings up a good topic.

I would be open to limiting the submissions. 300 pics was a lot to go through. It took me a long time and I was using a 100meg connection. Even though the pictures come up fast, there were many that I didn't open because they didn't look that interesting. I'm sure that happened with mine too. And, I do think it has to do with the thumbnails, not with the order. If the colors stand out or the subject is unique I'm more likely to open it. Maybe that's not really fair, but my time is limited.

nuyah said:

Perhaps we could have a challenge once in a while that limited the
number of entries per person to one ot two.

That would make viewing all of the entries easier for the bandwidth
deprived.

erichocinc said:

That said, I cannot for the life of me figure out what it takes to
win a Challenge. Not that the winners aren't usually fine photos,
of course they are. But like Lisa I've had POTD winners draw
virtually no votes in the Challenges. Clearly, some different
standard is being applied... but what it is, I don't have a clue
and am getting pretty frustrated over it. But the good news is
that if one DOESN'T have it all psyched out, the opportunities for
entering just for the sake of the learning experience in shooting
something out of your beaten track is very worthwhile.

So I'm determined to get over the fustration and just work on
taking shots I think are technically and artistically worthwhile on
the Challenge theme.. . and forget winning/losing as much as
possible.

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I'm pleased this thread was started, because it has helped me to consolidate some half-formed thoughts.

I haven't entered any challenges since Entrances and Exits (I think that was the title), partly because of being away from home quite a bit this summer, but mostly because I knew how much time would need to be devoted to looking through the photos for judging. I wouldn't feel comfortable about entering without putting in the effort to look properly at the other entries.

However, I couldn't help feeling that some of the more subtle photos were being overlooked in favour of those with more immediacy of impact at thumbnail size. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with this in a way - there is after all nothing to stop us all taking this into consideration when shooting our eligible photos, but personally I am against this approach.

My suggestion would be to limit the number of entries to one per member. This would enable everyone to judge all the entries at full size without taking up too much time.

--
David Barker

I think basically you have to remember that the ones who vote pick the winner........that does not mean the best photo wins.............................it simply means that those who vote pick the winner.

Being only new to this forum I have noticed the tribal tendencies and alliances that exist and to some extent this can have an influence on voting patterns.

The challenge in itself is a good idea but if photos are to be judged accurately and without favour you need a small panel, maybe 3 or 5 people with plenty of technical experience or professional background judging the winners.But we can't afford their time, nor do they probably have the time to participate in this type of thing.

Now, as we are not playing for a sheep station or a cattle ranch, we have to accept that this is a fun thing and voted on by those who want to vote, and it is those people who decide the winner.

So, when we enter, forget about how good you think your photo is , or how good you were told it was, or the amount of work you may have put in, and just accept that the photo will win if enough of the people who vote , actually vote for your entry.

Not everyone who views, votes, so just remember its like an election in the USA you don't need the majority of the population voting for you to become President, you just need the majority of those who are interested enough to vote.

ruddyone said:

1. Does order affect votes?
2. Does viewing size affect votes?

Why don't you load the votes per photo into that graph and see how
that looks. It doesn't really matter how many people look at a
picture full on, they may vote for it just by the thumbnail. And
one could say that people vote more for the pictures at the end
because they are fresh in the mind.

Just some thoughts.
red

nuyah said:

I think the pics that won the challenge are great and the rightful
winners.

That being said, I perceive an interesting trend in the
judging/voting which is indicated by the plot which I have taken
the liberty to upload to the end of the challenge 24 exhibition
gallery (see below).

My conclusions, based on the data, are:

• earlier entries are viewed far more than later entries,
• many voters only view the thumbnails of images before they vote.

There were 78 photos with fewer TOTAL viewings than the total
number of voters !

This is an observation, not a criticism. I think the challenge idea
is wonderfull and the winning submissions make me jealous given my
lack of artistry. My question is:

Should you view all photos in a way which allows judgement of
composition, exposure, color, etc prior to voting ?

Comments please...

http://www.pbase.com/image/4606267

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.fototime.com/inv/757AE7C15569148
You only live once ,and always suck the lemon.

have a nice day and don't loose your head, it will show your lack of maturity and your age.

Well can pbase be set to load the latest entries at the beginning? That would help offset the time of entry disadvantage.

Less entries would help - even with broadband it is too hard to give a credible viewing to all entries. That being said, several challenges had much lower entires so the hosts allowed more. It is hard to predict how many to allow.

As far as fewer voting - seems like a cumbersome system in general - big time committment. This time neither Sarah nor I voted. We had a wind storm knock our satellite receiver off just a hair. This resulted in intermittent and slow service when we did have it, with long blackouts in between. It stabilized near the end of the voting, by then we were behind on other pressing business and didn't have time to view the galleries enough to vote responsibly.

Hosts should make sure everybody knows that anybody belonging to DPreview can (is encouraged to) vote too - not just those who entered.

Just a few thoughts. Cindy

--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...

Perhaps limiting the entries to one or two per person would make a big difference... certainly, it would force each of us to be really discriminating in what work we choose to enter. That in itself is a learning.

1ofUs! said:

Well can pbase be set to load the latest entries at the beginning?
That would help offset the time of entry disadvantage.

Less entries would help - even with broadband it is too hard to
give a credible viewing to all entries. That being said, several
challenges had much lower entires so the hosts allowed more. It is
hard to predict how many to allow.

As far as fewer voting - seems like a cumbersome system in general

• big time committment. This time neither Sarah nor I voted. We

had a wind storm knock our satellite receiver off just a hair.
This resulted in intermittent and slow service when we did have it,
with long blackouts in between. It stabilized near the end of the
voting, by then we were behind on other pressing business and
didn't have time to view the galleries enough to vote responsibly.

Hosts should make sure everybody knows that anybody belonging to
DPreview can (is encouraged to) vote too - not just those who
entered.

Just a few thoughts. Cindy

--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...

Click to expand...

--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

Could not agree more with erichocinc's first post and Eric Noacks post with regard to what makes a winner.

If you enter to win you will find it a humbling experience. People like what they like, and what they like today they may not tomorrow. I have not tried to figure this thing out at all, given that my work tends to the offbeat and my assumption from the start was that each piece would tickle a random nerve and furrow more than one brow.

I also use the competition as a test ground for new concepts I am thinking about (no, Dee I don't lie awake at night dreaming these things up) I have said before, that the most helpful thing for me is the comments and I have no idea where they will go or from whom they will come. They just arrive on the screen and I study them. That is enough for me; I learn a lot that way. It's a bit like a think tank. One entry I made this time I thought would draw a lot of comments ( based on the comments from Joan, my wife and my kids...one of whom I hope will begin entering some of his shots soon) it got none. I'm never surprised here and always grateful for the time people take to write....helps me grow.

Fremiet

erichocinc said:

1ofUs! said:

Well can pbase be set to load the latest entries at the beginning?
That would help offset the time of entry disadvantage.

Less entries would help - even with broadband it is too hard to
give a credible viewing to all entries. That being said, several
challenges had much lower entires so the hosts allowed more. It is
hard to predict how many to allow.

As far as fewer voting - seems like a cumbersome system in general

• big time committment. This time neither Sarah nor I voted. We

had a wind storm knock our satellite receiver off just a hair.
This resulted in intermittent and slow service when we did have it,
with long blackouts in between. It stabilized near the end of the
voting, by then we were behind on other pressing business and
didn't have time to view the galleries enough to vote responsibly.

Hosts should make sure everybody knows that anybody belonging to
DPreview can (is encouraged to) vote too - not just those who
entered.

Just a few thoughts. Cindy

--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...

Click to expand...

--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/fremiet

erichocinc said:

Perhaps limiting the entries to one or two per person would make a
big difference... certainly, it would force each of us to be really
discriminating in what work we choose to enter. That in itself is
a learning.

Click to expand...

I agree (as I wrote earlier). I think one entry per person would be a good improvement. The standard of judging could be high without the task being onerous and (too) time-consuming.

I vote for one entry per person.

--
David Barker

You make a good point.

There are, unfortunately, too many photos entered to fairly look at every single one.

Perhaps in future challenges, people should be limited to only two photos in each category? Or maybe two photos in the Eligible category and one photo in the Exhibition category.

ruddyone said:

2. Does viewing size affect votes?

Click to expand...

I think that people should resize their photos to around 800 x 600. If a photo opens and it's really tiny, it's hard to make out how good it is. And if it opens as a huge photo, then this would be very annoying for people without high speed internet. I have high speed, and I find it annoying anyway.

erichocinc said:

Perhaps limiting the entries to one or two per person would make a
big difference... certainly, it would force each of us to be really
discriminating in what work we choose to enter. That in itself is
a learning.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think that we will have to go this way. It is so hard though to decide what to enter. In this last challenge I entered the aspen carving pics. My favorite was "ED" - I think it was technically the best and I don't know why, but I just liked it. At the same time when making my entry decisions I knew that "Me" would draw the most attention. And guess what? "ED" got neither comment or vote. lol, while 'Me" placed.

--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...