Upgrade strategies?

Terry Thorn said:

Jason Stoller said:

Yep, That must be it! I only speak well about the E-10 and E-20
because I am one of those upgraders! I only hang on to my E-100RS
because I am one of those upgraders! I cannot believe that anyone
would infer or assume that the only reason we would continue to
post in the Olympus forum is because we are upgraders and want to
rub that in the face or those who have not! I still remember and
love my old MGB but I do not own it anymore. You know Camera's
are just things, and who in the world is it really hurting to make
positive comments, esp if they are true about the E-10/E20N. I
personally do not care if anyone likes my opinion or not, but its
my opinion and I will continue to voice it. If the other person
reading it is not mature enough to handle it they certainly can
ignore my posts, because as far as I know, there is no one sitting
behind thier keyboard but them that is forcing them to read
anything on this forum. I guess since I am one of those upgraders
I really should not understand the way others feel. I really
should not expect people who are on this forum to have educated
themselves before they made their choice and purchase. As a former
user of these digital cameras, I guess I should not understand the
good points and bad points about the E-10/E20. God forbid that
upgraders post anything but happy and fluffy posts about the
E10/20. God forbid that we continue to share our knowledge about
these cameras to new people that purchase them or who are thinking
of purchasing them. Lord knows that many of us have spent
countless hours in this forum, sharing information and learning
from one another. Yes, upgraders are bad people and should be
banned from this forum, and not be allowed to hang around to
discuss and anticipate, the developement of any new Olympus
product, or debate and evaluate an existing one! Maybe one day,
all the small mindedness will stop, and maybe one day the world
will be perfect too! But I would not know because I am an
upgrader!!!! Peter Pan flies doesn't he? Or is he a she???

Jason

Click to expand...

Get real. No one is keeping you from helping others with their
Olympuses but is that what's really been going on? Nope. In fact,
we really haven't seen much from you here for a good while unless
it's in the discussions about other cameras v. Olympus. If people
here need information about Nikons or Canons (and especially how
they compare to the Olympuses), that's readily available yet the
posts asking for help aren't so enthusiastically responded to, if
at all, by these "upgraders". The opportunity to help and share you
r knowledge has ALWAYS been readily available to you but you
haven't been doing that lately. If I'm mistaken, please point out
the posts you've made in which you did this.

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

Jason Stoller said:

Yep, That must be it! I only speak well about the E-10 and E-20
because I am one of those upgraders! I only hang on to my E-100RS
because I am one of those upgraders! I cannot believe that anyone
would infer or assume that the only reason we would continue to
post in the Olympus forum is because we are upgraders and want to
rub that in the face or those who have not! I still remember and
love my old MGB but I do not own it anymore. You know Camera's
are just things, and who in the world is it really hurting to make
positive comments, esp if they are true about the E-10/E20N. I
personally do not care if anyone likes my opinion or not, but its
my opinion and I will continue to voice it. If the other person
reading it is not mature enough to handle it they certainly can
ignore my posts, because as far as I know, there is no one sitting
behind thier keyboard but them that is forcing them to read
anything on this forum. I guess since I am one of those upgraders
I really should not understand the way others feel. I really
should not expect people who are on this forum to have educated
themselves before they made their choice and purchase. As a former
user of these digital cameras, I guess I should not understand the
good points and bad points about the E-10/E20. God forbid that
upgraders post anything but happy and fluffy posts about the
E10/20. God forbid that we continue to share our knowledge about
these cameras to new people that purchase them or who are thinking
of purchasing them. Lord knows that many of us have spent
countless hours in this forum, sharing information and learning
from one another. Yes, upgraders are bad people and should be
banned from this forum, and not be allowed to hang around to
discuss and anticipate, the developement of any new Olympus
product, or debate and evaluate an existing one! Maybe one day,
all the small mindedness will stop, and maybe one day the world
will be perfect too! But I would not know because I am an
upgrader!!!! Peter Pan flies doesn't he? Or is he a she???

Jason

Click to expand...

Get real. No one is keeping you from helping others with their
Olympuses but is that what's really been going on? Nope. In fact,
we really haven't seen much from you here for a good while unless
it's in the discussions about other cameras v. Olympus. If people
here need information about Nikons or Canons (and especially how
they compare to the Olympuses), that's readily available yet the
posts asking for help aren't so enthusiastically responded to, if
at all, by these "upgraders". The opportunity to help and share you
r knowledge has ALWAYS been readily available to you but you
haven't been doing that lately. If I'm mistaken, please point out
the posts you've made in which you did this.

Click to expand...

Michael Brown said:

To DMillier:
I took your post in the way it was meant (I think my reply shows
that). However, I didn't claim that the pellicule approach was an
Olympus innovation, but I did imply that it couldn't work with 35mm
cameras which it obviously can - and you corrected that. Whereas
in 35mm it's primary advantage is silent operation, in digital it
also allows live preview, something which I think makes it more
valuable in digital.

Anyway - lets have some peace here! It's bad enough with everyone
leaving without the rest of us killing each other!

Michael.

DMillier said:

I don't police the forum, merely come across the posts from time to
time.

I also don't regard the D100 as a "status symbol" particularly as I
don't have much status to uphold!

The D100 is simply what it is - a superb value advance on what was
there before at that price point. Next year it will no longer be
and the year after it will be left behind. That's just the way it
is. Presumably we will reach a time when digicams stabilise and all
gradually grow to look the same but not yet.

Yet again you are persisting with your habit of attributing
motivations (wrongly) to me and yet again I must refute you. I
agreed that the pellicule approach is a valid and useful one (as I
said at great length, yet which I predicted you would simply ignore
as those facts don't fit your thesis (shades of Gould's technique
yet again!)).

And before you go on remember this is a thread about upgrading...

This contining acrimony is likely of little interest to others but
if anyone else is listening, I throw out a little challenge: do a
search on my posts over the last couple of months on this forum and
then do another search on Terry's responses. Then let me know which
one of us you think has provided the most reasonable information,
balanced views and useful contributions.

If the consensus is that Terry is right and I'm wrong I'll be happy
to retire gracefully from the forum...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

Ah Terry,

Your comments are just as absolutely, predictably, continously
wrong about me as Stephen Jay Gould's theories are about Natural
Selection...

I corrected an error - the pellicule approach is not an Olympus
innovation.

This is not attacking the E10 in anyway. Perhaps you should look
closely at your own psychological motivations for seeing every
comment that is not 100% positive as being 100% negative - there is
neutral ground you know.

As it happens, I like the E10 way of doing things - you avoid the
noise and vibaration of a moving mirror and you get the benefits of
LCD preview. Coupled with the movable LCD this is good - it allows
you to use the camera unobtrusively and from different viewpoints.

However it is not without compromise (like all engineering). You
lose a significant proportion of light so either the viewfinder is
less bright than it should be or the effective ISO is reduced (or
both).

Swings and roundabouts.

Now, of course, you are going to show what a sensible chap you are
by acknowledging the truth of what I have said and retracting your
sniping comment....aren't you?

Click to expand...

My point is that you feel you MUST not let anyone get away with
saying anything nice about the E-10/20 unless their spelling,
punctuation, and grammar is correct and they don't have their
"facts" exactly right according to your parameters. I don't see any
real excuse to your jumping on Mike's statements other than trying
to pour water on his enthusiasm. So what if the moving mirror is
used on cameras other than a 35mm? That insignificant point had
nothing to do with the gist of what he was saying. Do you really
believe that you alone knew that particular fact? I knew it and I'm
sure the others here did too. So what if Canon did use the same
basic technology as Olympus' prism? Did he STATE that it was an
Olympus innovation? Nope. There was no need to make such a
statement other than to throw water on a potential glowing ember of
Mike's enthusiasm for HIS camera. Don't you have anything BETTER to
do than to police the Olympus SLR Forum for "inaccuracies"? Why
aren't you out using that fabulous D100 of yours? Do you actually
use it or is it merely a status symbol?

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--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

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Beth said:

They weight almost the same...or at least FEEL like it. They handle
in similar ways. (Perhaps I'm not discerning enough?) The controls
are different. I wasn't used to the wheel on the back of the D30,
but am sure that with more time would get used to it. Anyway, the
difference in controls and my unwillingness to learn them 'cause I
knew I wasn't going to use the camera for more than an hour or two
made it feel uncomfortable. That was me--not the camera.

On our journey through the back roads of Maine, we came across some
heron in a salt marsh, then a red fox sneaked through the same
marsh. The E10 couldn't BEGIN to reach those animals. My brother
took his D30 and shot some nice shots of both. (with his 100-400
IS) (He'd have missed the fox if I hadn't been along with my
second set of eyes looking while he shot!) I didn't even try to
shoot them with the 10 which didn't stand a chance!

We then stopped at an old church which had been converted to an art
gallery and shot the exterior and bellfry. We laughed when we got
home and looked at our shots, 'cause though we were shooting the
same structure, we got very different images. We concluded that it
was partly due to the fact that he's about 6 inches taller than I.

Later my brother took the shots I had done of the same scene and
the two cameras and did a comparison. I posted the links to those
comparisons a few days ago. My brother saw more difference than I
did, I think. He has quite an investment in his D30 and lenses.

When comparing the difference is price between the two cameras, I
thought mine a bargain when comparing picture quality. The
differences were so minor (to my eye) that I was thrilled! I COULD
see a difference, but not $1500 worth of difference!

If I were to buy a D30 now, I'd spend at least $1000.00 that I
could be saving to put toward a D60 or some other camera yet to be
announced. I think I'll wait. I'm glad you are enjoying your D30
and i'm sure you're getting glorious shots with it! It is a
wonderful camera.

Brian Semotiuk said:

Here is what I did...

Sold my E-10 locally to a friend for $650 USD.

I bought a used D30 off of Ebay, and it was in Mint condition! I
paid $1300 USD for it.

I bought the following lenses so far:

28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM $450 USD
50mm f/1.8 $80

And flash...

420EX - $200

The difference was less than $1200 USD... not so bad really. But I
did not have a FL-40 for my E-10, so it is probably more fair to
exclude the flash in this comparison... so let's say $1000
difference and you could get into a useable D30 system. Also, one
could probably do a bit better on the prices than I did (I bought
some things locally that I could have ordered in cheaper)... maybe
save another hundred!

What do I think of it? Do I think I made the right choice? Yes!

The D30 is a far better camera than the E-10. It is MUCH more than
a marginal improvement. There is no comparison... I could go on
about it, but you have to actually experience it yourself to fully
appreciate it. Others have already explained this in greater detail
and I would just be redundant.

The only thing I can suggest is to try to find someone with a D30
and try or borrow it. Maybe a local shop has D60 in stock so go try
it in the store(D30 is similar in operation/control).

Beth said:

Okay Folks,
All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

I'm in no rush--I don't think. Unless the shutter goes on the E
again, I think I can wait 'til the 'Angel of No-Coiincidences'
signals me that it's time..the right camera has come along!

My brother thinks I should buy into a used D30 as a stop-gap, but
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. The smoothness of the D30
image is tempting, but spending $1000 (or more) on a camera that
marginally improves what I can do with the E makes little sense to
me. He's thinking a D30 will make it easier for me to wait for the
'right' camera to come along.

I'm hoping to hold onto the E and get the kind of service out of it
that will make it possible for me to wait several months to a
couple of years if necessary.

I'm hoping that Oly comes out with something tempting! If it does,
I can wait for the price to drop some, I think.

Anyone else thinking long and hard about upgrades too? What are YOU
thinking? Care to share?

Beth

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

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Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

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John W. said:

--
John W

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DMillier said:

D

John W. said:

--
John W

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DMillier said:

Beth

If you already have some experience with the D30 you already have
your answer.

The D30 offers a different handling experience to the E10 - some
will prefer it some will not. But, whilst the images show a lot
less noise, they are still 3+ MP resolution.

If you really want to see an important difference that justifies
the cash, buy a D60, D100, S2, SD9 (probably!), or D1x. Otherwise
you may as well stick with the E10 and Neat Image...

Click to expand...

DMillier said:

Hello again Terry

I wonder whether you have another post in you beyond the: "Oh look
here is another ex- oly owner come to brag about their new super
cam" and " Oh look, we haven't seen you around here for a while,
you must have come bag to brag about your new super cam" and "Oh
everyone is so depressed - they have just bought an new E10,E20 and
the old guys have come back to tell them how much better the
100/S2/D60/SD9/Olydak/etc etc is..."

Click to expand...

Michael Brown said:

...which no DSLR has:

1) Live preview LCD - I don't use it much but when I do, mainly as
a waist level viewfinder, it's such a great feature.

2) Almost silent operation. After using 35mm SLRs for 20 years the
quiteness of the E10 has really impressed me.

The Exx manages to have these features whilst still being a DSLR in
all other respects (particularly proper optical viewfinder).

If I 'upgraded' to a D-something I would really miss these two
features. The whole moving mirror concept just isn't really needed
anymore for digital SLRs and I hope that the OlyDak manages to make
do without this 35mm anachronism aswell.

Click to expand...

Michael Brown said:

For the time being I'm very, very happy with my E-10 and am not
planning an upgrade any time soon.

Click to expand...

John Burns said:

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Spell checker! I need a spell checker.

That "I am not" should read "I am now".

Take care,

--
TonyK

Click to expand...

--
John

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TonyK_in_Texas said:

Michael Brown said:

...which no DSLR has:

1) Live preview LCD - I don't use it much but when I do, mainly as
a waist level viewfinder, it's such a great feature.

2) Almost silent operation. After using 35mm SLRs for 20 years the
quiteness of the E10 has really impressed me.

The Exx manages to have these features whilst still being a DSLR in
all other respects (particularly proper optical viewfinder).

If I 'upgraded' to a D-something I would really miss these two
features. The whole moving mirror concept just isn't really needed
anymore for digital SLRs and I hope that the OlyDak manages to make
do without this 35mm anachronism aswell.

Click to expand...

This is not a 35mm only thing as has been pointed out. Medium
format SLR types have this (moving mirror). In fact any camera
made to an SLR means of operation can suffer this problem of noise
and vibration. I remember old 110 SLR systems (yes, 110 SLR).

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

It also presumes that a prisim is just as good as a mirror. I
prefer a very bright view finder and a prisim produces a slightly
darker one. As there are benefits to a mirror, this statement
alone could cause some folks to go astray when looking at higher
end DSLR systems.

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

Hello again Terry

I wonder whether you have another post in you beyond the: "Oh look
here is another ex- oly owner come to brag about their new super
cam" and " Oh look, we haven't seen you around here for a while,
you must have come bag to brag about your new super cam" and "Oh
everyone is so depressed - they have just bought an new E10,E20 and
the old guys have come back to tell them how much better the
100/S2/D60/SD9/Olydak/etc etc is..."

Click to expand...

No, Jason is griping that he can't help people here because he's an
"upgrader" yet he's made little or NO attempt to do that. He's more
than welcome to help people with their Olys if he so chooses but
he's apparently too caught up challenging everyone to take as good
an image with their Olys that he can with his Canon 1D. I must
thank him for providing the perfect example of what I've been
talking about though. He IS telling everyone just how much better
his camera is than either the E-10 or E-20.

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Beth wrote:

I don't quite understand what the beef is. There are as many
subjects on this board as there are people willing to select the
"New Message" button. No one is stopping anyone from posting about
the Olympus SLR and photography. In fact, I think there are quite a
few posts running parallel to this one about Camedia Pro 4.0,
focusing issues, microdrives, studio lights, the Lipo, etc. There
are even a couple of posts that showcase photos!

I think it's pretty easy to sense when the discussion is getting
testy. Maybe that's the time to ignore a thread, if it bothers you.
Some people seem to enjoy a lively debate. Great! Let it be! It
takes all kinds.
Beth

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Member said:

Member said:

If I 'upgraded' to a D-something I would really miss these two
features. The whole moving mirror concept just isn't really needed
anymore for digital SLRs and I hope that the OlyDak manages to make
do without this 35mm anachronism aswell.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Beth said:

All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

Click to expand...

• dual-slot, dual-format flash memory (Fuji S2 Pro has this... everyone

• silent operation (no mirror slap... not sure how quiet other SLR's

• live LCD preview (great for doing framing low- or high-angle shots that

• no mirror blackout (great for tracking high-speed objects for a panning

• flash sync at any shutter speed (flash fill works great even in bright

• fast 35-140mm f/2.0-2.4 zoom lens (surely Canon or Nikon or Sigma or

Terry Thorn said:

My point is that you feel you MUST not let anyone get away with
saying anything nice about the E-10/20

Click to expand...

Brian said:

Beth said:

All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

Click to expand...

When I bought my E-10 back in 2000 (I still remember the excitement
like it was yesterday... November 7 2000), I knew I would have to
soon fight off the symptoms of "upgraditis". ;-) I had just
upgraded from a Fuji MX-700 point-and-shoot, and I knew that in the
E-10 was a digital camera that was finally affordable and gave you
photographic controls and flexibility to the point where it was now
I, the photographer, who was the limiting factor.

While the DSLRs from Fuji, Nikon and Canon are all extremely nice
and can do many things the E-10 cannot, the Olympus has some unique
features that I wish other manufacturers would implement:

• dual-slot, dual-format flash memory (Fuji S2 Pro has this...

everyone
else only has a single memory slot)

• silent operation (no mirror slap... not sure how quiet other SLR's

"silent mode" really is)

• live LCD preview (great for doing framing low- or high-angle

shots that
would have been hit or miss without the feature)

• no mirror blackout (great for tracking high-speed objects for a

panning
shot, or watching a scene during long exposures)

• flash sync at any shutter speed (flash fill works great even in

bright
daylight and high shutter speeds... don't have to futz with
"high-speed
flash sync" or other nonsense)

• fast 35-140mm f/2.0-2.4 zoom lens (surely Canon or Nikon or Sigma or

Tamron or Tokina or whoever can produce a single lens with similar
range
and maximum aperture?)
When I stepped up from the MX-700 to the E-10, I made virtually no
compromises. Okay, the MX-700 could do this neat rapid multishot
sequence where 16 images were arranged on single JPEG... big deal.
;-) I didn't want to spend a lot more money on the E-10 and then
discover things that the MX-700 could do better. The E-10 was in
every aspect a better camera and truly rekindled my interest in
photography.

I don't think I can quite say the same about an upgrade today. The
D30 was a revolutionary camera when it appeared on the market, and
the D60 addresses many of the D30's shortcomings, but neither has
any of the six features I list above. Not to mention that my
proposed D60 kit would run me close to $8000 (Canadian), and I
would still have to deal with certain compromises in functionality.
I figure if I'm going to spend 2 to 3 times as much on a new camera
system, it better outperform the old camera by 2 to 3 times in
every respect (and I don't mean "6 times better" in one area, and
only "half as good" in another ;-)).

I like Canon's lens lineup and their track record for feature and
usability innovation (IMHO, Canon beats Nikon in both areas). So
if my E-10 were to get run over by a steamroller or sink to the
bottom of Lake Ontario, my first camera replacement choice would be
a D60 with an assortment of lenses to cover the same range as my
current set of E-10 lenses. However, my E-10 has not been
flattened and has not drowned ;-), which is why I'm not on anyone's
D60 waiting list.

Like many others, I'm waiting for Photokina to see what
manufacturers have up their sleeves. If there is a compelling
product announcement at the show, I would be willing to wait
another six to twelve months for that camera to be available and
for other people to get used to it and provide some experienced
feedback with it. There are certainly better cameras than the E-10
available now (I sure hope so... other companies have had more than
2 years to figure out how to beat it ;-)), but it doesn't mean the
E-10 has somehow gotten worse over time.

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