Upgrade strategies?

DMillier said:

I don't police the forum, merely come across the posts from time to
time.

I also don't regard the D100 as a "status symbol" particularly as I
don't have much status to uphold!

The D100 is simply what it is - a superb value advance on what was
there before at that price point. Next year it will no longer be
and the year after it will be left behind. That's just the way it
is. Presumably we will reach a time when digicams stabilise and all
gradually grow to look the same but not yet.

Yet again you are persisting with your habit of attributing
motivations (wrongly) to me and yet again I must refute you. I
agreed that the pellicule approach is a valid and useful one (as I
said at great length, yet which I predicted you would simply ignore
as those facts don't fit your thesis (shades of Gould's technique
yet again!)).

And before you go on remember this is a thread about upgrading...

This contining acrimony is likely of little interest to others but
if anyone else is listening, I throw out a little challenge: do a
search on my posts over the last couple of months on this forum and
then do another search on Terry's responses. Then let me know which
one of us you think has provided the most reasonable information,
balanced views and useful contributions.

If the consensus is that Terry is right and I'm wrong I'll be happy
to retire gracefully from the forum...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

Ah Terry,

Your comments are just as absolutely, predictably, continously
wrong about me as Stephen Jay Gould's theories are about Natural
Selection...

I corrected an error - the pellicule approach is not an Olympus
innovation.

This is not attacking the E10 in anyway. Perhaps you should look
closely at your own psychological motivations for seeing every
comment that is not 100% positive as being 100% negative - there is
neutral ground you know.

As it happens, I like the E10 way of doing things - you avoid the
noise and vibaration of a moving mirror and you get the benefits of
LCD preview. Coupled with the movable LCD this is good - it allows
you to use the camera unobtrusively and from different viewpoints.

However it is not without compromise (like all engineering). You
lose a significant proportion of light so either the viewfinder is
less bright than it should be or the effective ISO is reduced (or
both).

Swings and roundabouts.

Now, of course, you are going to show what a sensible chap you are
by acknowledging the truth of what I have said and retracting your
sniping comment....aren't you?

Click to expand...

My point is that you feel you MUST not let anyone get away with
saying anything nice about the E-10/20 unless their spelling,
punctuation, and grammar is correct and they don't have their
"facts" exactly right according to your parameters. I don't see any
real excuse to your jumping on Mike's statements other than trying
to pour water on his enthusiasm. So what if the moving mirror is
used on cameras other than a 35mm? That insignificant point had
nothing to do with the gist of what he was saying. Do you really
believe that you alone knew that particular fact? I knew it and I'm
sure the others here did too. So what if Canon did use the same
basic technology as Olympus' prism? Did he STATE that it was an
Olympus innovation? Nope. There was no need to make such a
statement other than to throw water on a potential glowing ember of
Mike's enthusiasm for HIS camera. Don't you have anything BETTER to
do than to police the Olympus SLR Forum for "inaccuracies"? Why
aren't you out using that fabulous D100 of yours? Do you actually
use it or is it merely a status symbol?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jason Stoller said:

Jason

DMillier said:

I don't police the forum, merely come across the posts from time to
time.

I also don't regard the D100 as a "status symbol" particularly as I
don't have much status to uphold!

The D100 is simply what it is - a superb value advance on what was
there before at that price point. Next year it will no longer be
and the year after it will be left behind. That's just the way it
is. Presumably we will reach a time when digicams stabilise and all
gradually grow to look the same but not yet.

Yet again you are persisting with your habit of attributing
motivations (wrongly) to me and yet again I must refute you. I
agreed that the pellicule approach is a valid and useful one (as I
said at great length, yet which I predicted you would simply ignore
as those facts don't fit your thesis (shades of Gould's technique
yet again!)).

And before you go on remember this is a thread about upgrading...

This contining acrimony is likely of little interest to others but
if anyone else is listening, I throw out a little challenge: do a
search on my posts over the last couple of months on this forum and
then do another search on Terry's responses. Then let me know which
one of us you think has provided the most reasonable information,
balanced views and useful contributions.

If the consensus is that Terry is right and I'm wrong I'll be happy
to retire gracefully from the forum...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

Ah Terry,

Your comments are just as absolutely, predictably, continously
wrong about me as Stephen Jay Gould's theories are about Natural
Selection...

I corrected an error - the pellicule approach is not an Olympus
innovation.

This is not attacking the E10 in anyway. Perhaps you should look
closely at your own psychological motivations for seeing every
comment that is not 100% positive as being 100% negative - there is
neutral ground you know.

As it happens, I like the E10 way of doing things - you avoid the
noise and vibaration of a moving mirror and you get the benefits of
LCD preview. Coupled with the movable LCD this is good - it allows
you to use the camera unobtrusively and from different viewpoints.

However it is not without compromise (like all engineering). You
lose a significant proportion of light so either the viewfinder is
less bright than it should be or the effective ISO is reduced (or
both).

Swings and roundabouts.

Now, of course, you are going to show what a sensible chap you are
by acknowledging the truth of what I have said and retracting your
sniping comment....aren't you?

Click to expand...

My point is that you feel you MUST not let anyone get away with
saying anything nice about the E-10/20 unless their spelling,
punctuation, and grammar is correct and they don't have their
"facts" exactly right according to your parameters. I don't see any
real excuse to your jumping on Mike's statements other than trying
to pour water on his enthusiasm. So what if the moving mirror is
used on cameras other than a 35mm? That insignificant point had
nothing to do with the gist of what he was saying. Do you really
believe that you alone knew that particular fact? I knew it and I'm
sure the others here did too. So what if Canon did use the same
basic technology as Olympus' prism? Did he STATE that it was an
Olympus innovation? Nope. There was no need to make such a
statement other than to throw water on a potential glowing ember of
Mike's enthusiasm for HIS camera. Don't you have anything BETTER to
do than to police the Olympus SLR Forum for "inaccuracies"? Why
aren't you out using that fabulous D100 of yours? Do you actually
use it or is it merely a status symbol?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!

Click to expand...

DMillier said:

If your reading comprehension is as good as you think it is, you
might learn to spell my name correctly

I'm interested in this "damned by faint praise" idea though. If you
view neutrality through the wrong filter that it inevitably becomes
damned by faint praise, I suppose...

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

If your reading comprehension is as good as you think it is, you
might learn to spell my name correctly

I'm interested in this "damned by faint praise" idea though. If you
view neutrality through the wrong filter that it inevitably becomes
damned by faint praise, I suppose...

Click to expand...

You often say that the E-10/20 is a good camera but then you have
to add something to the effect of "BUT, it's not the best". Why do
that so much? Are you SCARED that someone might actually BELIEVE it
and not buy another camera? Like I've said before... WE KNOW it's
not the best but it suits many of us just fine. I don't mind seeing
it once in a while but it seems to be like a broken record here.
What IS the point of repeating one thing SO much? For people just
buying their E-10 or 20 and joining the forum, it's got to be a
rather anti-climatic experience to see all this chatter about
moving away from the cameras they just bought. I suppose we ought
to ask Phil to change the name of this forum to the "Upgrader's
Forum" or "I paid for Braggin' Rights Forum" since they seem to be
the most prominent posters here.

Click to expand...

DMillier said:

I don't police the forum, merely come across the posts from time to
time.

I also don't regard the D100 as a "status symbol" particularly as I
don't have much status to uphold!

The D100 is simply what it is - a superb value advance on what was
there before at that price point. Next year it will no longer be
and the year after it will be left behind. That's just the way it
is. Presumably we will reach a time when digicams stabilise and all
gradually grow to look the same but not yet.

Yet again you are persisting with your habit of attributing
motivations (wrongly) to me and yet again I must refute you. I
agreed that the pellicule approach is a valid and useful one (as I
said at great length, yet which I predicted you would simply ignore
as those facts don't fit your thesis (shades of Gould's technique
yet again!)).

And before you go on remember this is a thread about upgrading...

This contining acrimony is likely of little interest to others but
if anyone else is listening, I throw out a little challenge: do a
search on my posts over the last couple of months on this forum and
then do another search on Terry's responses. Then let me know which
one of us you think has provided the most reasonable information,
balanced views and useful contributions.

If the consensus is that Terry is right and I'm wrong I'll be happy
to retire gracefully from the forum...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

Ah Terry,

Your comments are just as absolutely, predictably, continously
wrong about me as Stephen Jay Gould's theories are about Natural
Selection...

I corrected an error - the pellicule approach is not an Olympus
innovation.

This is not attacking the E10 in anyway. Perhaps you should look
closely at your own psychological motivations for seeing every
comment that is not 100% positive as being 100% negative - there is
neutral ground you know.

As it happens, I like the E10 way of doing things - you avoid the
noise and vibaration of a moving mirror and you get the benefits of
LCD preview. Coupled with the movable LCD this is good - it allows
you to use the camera unobtrusively and from different viewpoints.

However it is not without compromise (like all engineering). You
lose a significant proportion of light so either the viewfinder is
less bright than it should be or the effective ISO is reduced (or
both).

Swings and roundabouts.

Now, of course, you are going to show what a sensible chap you are
by acknowledging the truth of what I have said and retracting your
sniping comment....aren't you?

Click to expand...

My point is that you feel you MUST not let anyone get away with
saying anything nice about the E-10/20 unless their spelling,
punctuation, and grammar is correct and they don't have their
"facts" exactly right according to your parameters. I don't see any
real excuse to your jumping on Mike's statements other than trying
to pour water on his enthusiasm. So what if the moving mirror is
used on cameras other than a 35mm? That insignificant point had
nothing to do with the gist of what he was saying. Do you really
believe that you alone knew that particular fact? I knew it and I'm
sure the others here did too. So what if Canon did use the same
basic technology as Olympus' prism? Did he STATE that it was an
Olympus innovation? Nope. There was no need to make such a
statement other than to throw water on a potential glowing ember of
Mike's enthusiasm for HIS camera. Don't you have anything BETTER to
do than to police the Olympus SLR Forum for "inaccuracies"? Why
aren't you out using that fabulous D100 of yours? Do you actually
use it or is it merely a status symbol?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Okay Folks,
All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

I'm in no rush--I don't think. Unless the shutter goes on the E
again, I think I can wait 'til the 'Angel of No-Coiincidences'
signals me that it's time..the right camera has come along!

My brother thinks I should buy into a used D30 as a stop-gap, but
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. The smoothness of the D30
image is tempting, but spending $1000 (or more) on a camera that
marginally improves what I can do with the E makes little sense to
me. He's thinking a D30 will make it easier for me to wait for the
'right' camera to come along.

I'm hoping to hold onto the E and get the kind of service out of it
that will make it possible for me to wait several months to a
couple of years if necessary.

I'm hoping that Oly comes out with something tempting! If it does,
I can wait for the price to drop some, I think.

Anyone else thinking long and hard about upgrades too? What are YOU
thinking? Care to share?

Beth

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

Brian Semotiuk said:

Here is what I did...

Sold my E-10 locally to a friend for $650 USD.

I bought a used D30 off of Ebay, and it was in Mint condition! I
paid $1300 USD for it.

I bought the following lenses so far:

28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM $450 USD
50mm f/1.8 $80

And flash...

420EX - $200

The difference was less than $1200 USD... not so bad really. But I
did not have a FL-40 for my E-10, so it is probably more fair to
exclude the flash in this comparison... so let's say $1000
difference and you could get into a useable D30 system. Also, one
could probably do a bit better on the prices than I did (I bought
some things locally that I could have ordered in cheaper)... maybe
save another hundred!

What do I think of it? Do I think I made the right choice? Yes!

The D30 is a far better camera than the E-10. It is MUCH more than
a marginal improvement. There is no comparison... I could go on
about it, but you have to actually experience it yourself to fully
appreciate it. Others have already explained this in greater detail
and I would just be redundant.

The only thing I can suggest is to try to find someone with a D30
and try or borrow it. Maybe a local shop has D60 in stock so go try
it in the store(D30 is similar in operation/control).

Beth said:

Okay Folks,
All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

I'm in no rush--I don't think. Unless the shutter goes on the E
again, I think I can wait 'til the 'Angel of No-Coiincidences'
signals me that it's time..the right camera has come along!

My brother thinks I should buy into a used D30 as a stop-gap, but
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. The smoothness of the D30
image is tempting, but spending $1000 (or more) on a camera that
marginally improves what I can do with the E makes little sense to
me. He's thinking a D30 will make it easier for me to wait for the
'right' camera to come along.

I'm hoping to hold onto the E and get the kind of service out of it
that will make it possible for me to wait several months to a
couple of years if necessary.

I'm hoping that Oly comes out with something tempting! If it does,
I can wait for the price to drop some, I think.

Anyone else thinking long and hard about upgrades too? What are YOU
thinking? Care to share?

Beth

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jason Stoller said:

Yep, That must be it! I only speak well about the E-10 and E-20
because I am one of those upgraders! I only hang on to my E-100RS
because I am one of those upgraders! I cannot believe that anyone
would infer or assume that the only reason we would continue to
post in the Olympus forum is because we are upgraders and want to
rub that in the face or those who have not! I still remember and
love my old MGB but I do not own it anymore. You know Camera's
are just things, and who in the world is it really hurting to make
positive comments, esp if they are true about the E-10/E20N. I
personally do not care if anyone likes my opinion or not, but its
my opinion and I will continue to voice it. If the other person
reading it is not mature enough to handle it they certainly can
ignore my posts, because as far as I know, there is no one sitting
behind thier keyboard but them that is forcing them to read
anything on this forum. I guess since I am one of those upgraders
I really should not understand the way others feel. I really
should not expect people who are on this forum to have educated
themselves before they made their choice and purchase. As a former
user of these digital cameras, I guess I should not understand the
good points and bad points about the E-10/E20. God forbid that
upgraders post anything but happy and fluffy posts about the
E10/20. God forbid that we continue to share our knowledge about
these cameras to new people that purchase them or who are thinking
of purchasing them. Lord knows that many of us have spent
countless hours in this forum, sharing information and learning
from one another. Yes, upgraders are bad people and should be
banned from this forum, and not be allowed to hang around to
discuss and anticipate, the developement of any new Olympus
product, or debate and evaluate an existing one! Maybe one day,
all the small mindedness will stop, and maybe one day the world
will be perfect too! But I would not know because I am an
upgrader!!!! Peter Pan flies doesn't he? Or is he a she???

Jason

Click to expand...

Michael Brown said:

To Terry:
Thanks for defending me but I think you might have overreacted a
little on this one. I didn't find anything to object to in
DMillier's post myself and it didn't contradict what I said about
the E-10.

Click to expand...

David M. said:

The whole upgrade discussion going on here is getting tired, and
the forum could indeed use a little peace.
I don't see anything wrong with such discussions. They actually
are informative to a point, as well as even entertaining. But the
issue going on here I believe is that so much of this "upgrade"
discussion is going on here coupled with ex-Exx owners coming back
so much to flog the Exx with their new toys that it's made current
and satisfied Exx owners a little defensive.
Sometimes it just gets old too. We all know the weaknesses of the
Exx and what we'd like to see improve. It's been drilled into our
heads actually. Shutter speed, read/write/review times, among some
others. Some of us can live with them, some of us can't. But the
thing that's funny is a year ago and more on this forum, people
were having a great time with their cameras, and posting awesome
pics. Now that there are "affordable" systems with more robust
features than the Oly, people no longer feel able to continue
having fun here or to create the same great photography? That's
what I don't understand about it all. I know that's not entirely
the case.....people develop skills and desires and yearn for better
things to keep up with them. And that's very cool. But then
should'nt we all just move on then gracefully, whilst leaving the
forum to the satisfied ones and newcomers who still find a large
amount of satisfaction? Why the endless drilling it in?
When someone spends over a grand (or two) on a cam system and
couples that with a large investment of time and study, they tend
to feel a sense of pride and joy about it. Then to see people
constantly harangue the cam on it's obvious faults and talk of the
overwhelming need to upgrade, etc, only exacerbates an already
volatile atmosphere. The upgraders and critics know this yet they
persist. The satisfied owners know this and persist. And so we
have this......threads which degrade into argumentativeness,
defensiveness, hard feelings and flames. And it does'nt have to be.
I think (hope actually) that after Photokina that what's to be
introduced will be exposed finally and people will know at last
what their future strategies should be aimed for. And then there
really won't be much of a point anymore in these types of
discussions, they'll be worn out. Then a couple months after that
we'll have the inevitable posts from owners of the new systems
coming back to go on about how much better their new toy is. Then,
hopefully, it'll all die down and we can get back to fruitful and
relevant discussion about our passions.....the Olympus SLR and our
photography.
In the meantime, there's a great search engine on this forum that
newcomers can use fortunately that will bring up all the knowledge
and information that's been shared here before. And hopefully they
can overlook all the upgrade talk from those who need to keep up
with the Jones's and won't feel that they just bought a piece of
junk. And us regulars can instead of bickering and feeling
slighted here can instead rely on that too, and instead of sitting
here drooling over what's around the next corner will be out taking
pictures and enjoying our photography!!
Ok, back to the regularly scheduled rants.....
D.

Click to expand...

Tessa Car said:

Is there any point of waiting little bit longer for upgrade to D60
or something like that - due to maybe announcment of new cameras
and drop in price for Canon.

Or Canon will stay stable in price?

Tessa

Click to expand...

Beth said:

Okay Folks,
All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

I'm in no rush--I don't think. Unless the shutter goes on the E
again, I think I can wait 'til the 'Angel of No-Coiincidences'
signals me that it's time..the right camera has come along!

My brother thinks I should buy into a used D30 as a stop-gap, but
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. The smoothness of the D30
image is tempting, but spending $1000 (or more) on a camera that
marginally improves what I can do with the E makes little sense to
me. He's thinking a D30 will make it easier for me to wait for the
'right' camera to come along.

I'm hoping to hold onto the E and get the kind of service out of it
that will make it possible for me to wait several months to a
couple of years if necessary.

I'm hoping that Oly comes out with something tempting! If it does,
I can wait for the price to drop some, I think.

Anyone else thinking long and hard about upgrades too? What are YOU
thinking? Care to share?

Beth

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

David M. said:

The whole upgrade discussion going on here is getting tired, and
the forum could indeed use a little peace.
I don't see anything wrong with such discussions. They actually
are informative to a point, as well as even entertaining. But the
issue going on here I believe is that so much of this "upgrade"
discussion is going on here coupled with ex-Exx owners coming back
so much to flog the Exx with their new toys that it's made current
and satisfied Exx owners a little defensive.
Sometimes it just gets old too. We all know the weaknesses of the
Exx and what we'd like to see improve. It's been drilled into our
heads actually. Shutter speed, read/write/review times, among some
others. Some of us can live with them, some of us can't. But the
thing that's funny is a year ago and more on this forum, people
were having a great time with their cameras, and posting awesome
pics. Now that there are "affordable" systems with more robust
features than the Oly, people no longer feel able to continue
having fun here or to create the same great photography? That's
what I don't understand about it all. I know that's not entirely
the case.....people develop skills and desires and yearn for better
things to keep up with them. And that's very cool. But then
should'nt we all just move on then gracefully, whilst leaving the
forum to the satisfied ones and newcomers who still find a large
amount of satisfaction? Why the endless drilling it in?
When someone spends over a grand (or two) on a cam system and
couples that with a large investment of time and study, they tend
to feel a sense of pride and joy about it. Then to see people
constantly harangue the cam on it's obvious faults and talk of the
overwhelming need to upgrade, etc, only exacerbates an already
volatile atmosphere. The upgraders and critics know this yet they
persist. The satisfied owners know this and persist. And so we
have this......threads which degrade into argumentativeness,
defensiveness, hard feelings and flames. And it does'nt have to be.
I think (hope actually) that after Photokina that what's to be
introduced will be exposed finally and people will know at last
what their future strategies should be aimed for. And then there
really won't be much of a point anymore in these types of
discussions, they'll be worn out. Then a couple months after that
we'll have the inevitable posts from owners of the new systems
coming back to go on about how much better their new toy is. Then,
hopefully, it'll all die down and we can get back to fruitful and
relevant discussion about our passions.....the Olympus SLR and our
photography.
In the meantime, there's a great search engine on this forum that
newcomers can use fortunately that will bring up all the knowledge
and information that's been shared here before. And hopefully they
can overlook all the upgrade talk from those who need to keep up
with the Jones's and won't feel that they just bought a piece of
junk. And us regulars can instead of bickering and feeling
slighted here can instead rely on that too, and instead of sitting
here drooling over what's around the next corner will be out taking
pictures and enjoying our photography!!
Ok, back to the regularly scheduled rants.....
D.

Click to expand...

Charles L. Mims said:

Beth said:

Okay Folks,
All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

I'm in no rush--I don't think. Unless the shutter goes on the E
again, I think I can wait 'til the 'Angel of No-Coiincidences'
signals me that it's time..the right camera has come along!

My brother thinks I should buy into a used D30 as a stop-gap, but
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. The smoothness of the D30
image is tempting, but spending $1000 (or more) on a camera that
marginally improves what I can do with the E makes little sense to
me. He's thinking a D30 will make it easier for me to wait for the
'right' camera to come along.

I'm hoping to hold onto the E and get the kind of service out of it
that will make it possible for me to wait several months to a
couple of years if necessary.

I'm hoping that Oly comes out with something tempting! If it does,
I can wait for the price to drop some, I think.

Anyone else thinking long and hard about upgrades too? What are YOU
thinking? Care to share?

Beth

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

I work at a Lincoln store and I drive a used Grand Marquis. I love
everyone hot to upgrade their expensive toys. I wait 18 months and
buy my stuff 30 -50 cents on the dollar. My new computer is an
"old" 1.3 Athelon on a "closeout" raid motherboard with a closeout
19 inch old style tube monitor. I guess I am just cheap. I have not
bought a new camera in 25 years. The one I did (M645 1000s) I still
have. I understand all my old lenses will work on the new digital
Mamiya. Oh well maybe by 2005 I can buy a used one. I still to a
lot of commercial work. Cheap in San Antonio.
--
charleslmims

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Spell checker! I need a spell checker.

That "I am not" should read "I am now".

Take care,

--
TonyK

Click to expand...

DMillier said:

I think it is fairer to prospective purchasers to provide a
balanced view of the camera's capabilities and where it stands in
the hierarchy of goodness than to over-egg its capabilities.

Realistically, anyone who has bought one already and taken any
pictures already has a good idea of what it can do and shouldn't be
relying on me or you to talk it up (or down).

And as you frequently point out there are a number of people
considering upgrading who can benefit from people's experience of
the E series compared to newer cams.

The E series always sold on its value for money rather than its
absolute performance so there is no change here. In fact if
anything with the new pricing the E10 is just about better value
than any other cam I can think of (but the accessories are not - in
Europe anyway). But please don't kid yourself that there isn't
better performance available elsewhere or that some people aren't
interested in upgrading.

One day of course you'll decide you fancy an upgrade and then
you'll suddenly want to hear everything you can about the available
options and how they compare to the old model...

ps

I have just thought of something negative about my D100. Generally,
the AF seems better than the E10 ( a little) but sometimes it won't
focus on infinity. I was shooting on the beach the other evening
and it just refused to admit the sky or distant hills were there. I
had to switch to manual focus(and without the benefit of that
lovely E10 chunk of aluminium switchgear either). This is not the
first time it has had problems doing this. The E10 never had
problems getiing an infinity lock.

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

If your reading comprehension is as good as you think it is, you
might learn to spell my name correctly

I'm interested in this "damned by faint praise" idea though. If you
view neutrality through the wrong filter that it inevitably becomes
damned by faint praise, I suppose...

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You often say that the E-10/20 is a good camera but then you have
to add something to the effect of "BUT, it's not the best". Why do
that so much? Are you SCARED that someone might actually BELIEVE it
and not buy another camera? Like I've said before... WE KNOW it's
not the best but it suits many of us just fine. I don't mind seeing
it once in a while but it seems to be like a broken record here.
What IS the point of repeating one thing SO much? For people just
buying their E-10 or 20 and joining the forum, it's got to be a
rather anti-climatic experience to see all this chatter about
moving away from the cameras they just bought. I suppose we ought
to ask Phil to change the name of this forum to the "Upgrader's
Forum" or "I paid for Braggin' Rights Forum" since they seem to be
the most prominent posters here.

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