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GH1 is visionary contribution to photography in general

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--If you read the press release, GH1 captures 1920x1080 at 24p(NTSC) and 25p(PAL) and records over 60i and 50i respectively. It is so called PSF-progressive segmented frame for backwards compatibility with all old interlaced displays. It is not true that 1080/60i/50i capture is the HD standard. Interlace capture creates numerous artifacts that cannot be easily dealt with in postproduction. (any FX, blubox etc become a nightmare). The standard toward which HD moves slowly is 1080/60p/50p, but that's double the datastream and many years away. Again, there is nothing to gain from interlaced capture and lots to lose. There is no technical problem for a camera that captures at 24/25p to do it at 50i/60i. Data streams are almost the same. If Panasonic disabled this possibility (I don't know that for sure) maybe they did it for the reason of avoiding all nasty interlace artefacts on all modern progressive diplays (LCD, plasma). The chance of GH1 user working on CRT interlaced display is close to null.
 
tameside said:
The dynamic range of this sensor and 720p/60 will absolutely
fantastic imo, more than good enough for what most need.
Click to expand...
That's my feeling too. 1080p seems over kill for now.
--
JonathanF
Oly E-510, 11-22, 35, 14-54, 18-180, TCON-17, FL-36
Canon S1IS, Casio QV-3000
 
May be bandwith related (huge sensor!).
24fps is better for storage purposes.
1080p at true 60p is a storage hog.
Of course 1080p 60fps it will be pretty standard years from now.
 
florinandrei said:
1080p24 is nice. 720p60 is nice from a frame rate perspective, but
it's junk from a resolution perspective.

The glaring omission here is 1080i60. I don't want to shoot my movies
in 24 fps, because I have no use for the "film look". And 720 is just
not enough. Most HD camcorders today support 1080i60, which is pretty
much the de-facto standard for digital HD.

This is a deal-breaker for me and possibly for many other people.

My guess is - something, maybe the sensor, maybe the electronics, is
stretched to the max, and they were just barely able to squeeze in
the 1080p24 and 720p60, but the whole thing collapsed when they tried
1080i60. So maybe the next generation will be able to support 1080i60.

I was curious about 1080p60 (which can be easily processed into
1080i60, 720p or just about anything else) but it's probably a moot
point. :-)

--
Click to expand...
where do you come up with 1080i60 as the end all?
interlaced formats stink

why would you even want to convert 1080p60 into 1080i60??

2k broadcast tends to be 1080i25 or 30 and that was set because equipment was not powerful enough back when they created the standards and could only reasonable handle, they thought, 1920x1080i30 or 1280x720p60.

the defacto HD standard is 1080p24 for HD disc content
or p30 or p60 for other stuff
 
--Again, 1080/24/25p and 720/60p are two different beasts. Data streams are almost the same, but target users are different. Lower resolution (1280x720) but at higher progressive refresh rate (60p=60 full frames per second) are better for all applications connected with movement. Sports, military and medical movement imaging etc.

In fact it's called higher temporal resolution than 24/25p=24 or 25 full frames per second. Lower temporal but higher spatial resoliution of the 1920x1080/24p/25p pictures is better for more static applications: photography presentation, drama movies, big non-sport events with lots of detail. Hence as a compromise US HDTV (ATSC) supports both standards (among 16 or so) and stations were free to chose in which one to broadcast. Europeans were initially for 720/60p (EBU recommendation) but finally 1080/25p seems to have won because of the closer route to the holy grail of 1080/50p.

Now delivery in interlaced 50i/60i is a hangover from the old days of standard definition (NTSC 525i and PAL 625i). To maintain compatibility with old CRT interlaced displays the recording medium and broadcast datastream uses interlaced half-frames/fields to carry both progressively and interlaced captured/recorded material. If original material was captured progressively, the frame is divided into two fields wherre every second line is shown over 50 or 60 hertz (fields=half frames per second). It is called PSF=progressive segmented frame delivery. Human brain puts the two fields together into one full frame captured in the same moment of time.

Whenever possible capture should be however progressive (The whole frame at once and not half frame=field at a time) because it avoids all nasty interlace artefacts.

When capture is interlaced, say 50Hz or 50 half frames=fields per second, the moving subject is rendered as blurry-it simply moved between the moment of capturing field one and field two of the same frame.

The topic is complicated and calls for more explanations. I can only assure that Panasonic made an excellent choice with capture standards, unlike Canon 5dm2 which offers only 30p.
 
That's what I was trying to say--I guess. I just don't want a 10x zoom--one lens for all, but its a great lens for the first timer who may not like or feel comfortable changing lenses--or be sure when to do that. Usually optics are better in shorter zooms--but there are a few very good big zooms. I'm expecting this will be a nice one--but if it is--also pricey.

Diane
-----------------------
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic
 
florinandrei said:
not enough. Most HD camcorders today support 1080i60, which is pretty
much the de-facto standard for digital HD.
Click to expand...
1080i takes the same bandwidth as 720/30p. So, they shoot 1080i because its ALL they can.

Nobody wants 1080i-- it offers nothing of value. Its really just a spec that lets people say "full hd".
florinandrei said:
This is a deal-breaker for me and possibly for many other people.
Click to expand...
It shouldn't be, because 1080/24p is much better quality wise than 1080i. Its about 4 times the bandwidth of 1080i!
florinandrei said:
My guess is - something, maybe the sensor, maybe the electronics, is
stretched to the max, and they were just barely able to squeeze in
the 1080p24 and 720p60, but the whole thing collapsed when they tried
1080i60. So maybe the next generation will be able to support 1080i60.
Click to expand...
Nope, doesn't make sense. 720/30p and 1080i are about the same bandwidth. 1080/24p is much higher bandwidth.

They could do 1080i and I'm not sure why they didn't have it, and 30p and other options that seem possible given that the camera can do 1080/24p. But they chose not to.

For instance, why 720/60p and not 720/30p? I don't know why they made that decision, but they did. Probably to make the camera less complicated.
florinandrei said:
I was curious about 1080p60 (which can be easily processed into
1080i60, 720p or just about anything else) but it's probably a moot
point. :-)
Click to expand...
No prosumer or consumer cameras do 1080/60p. In fact, I'm not aware of any cameras that do that.

60p would be more than double the bandwidth of 24p, and that probably does exceed the specs. But no big deal, I think.

Also, realize that with 24p you get %20 more bandwidth to each frame as compared to 30p, and thus each frame will be higher quality than 30p at the same bitrate.
 
Never understood why they didn't just record at 1080/24p, which is in the AVCHD spec.... but now I see-- its so that you can plug the camera into a 1080i monitor and watch the footage.

It makes it a hassle in post as you have to do the pulldown before editing your footage.... but at least I understand why they made that tradeoff now.

Thanks!
nugat said:
--If you read the press release, GH1 captures 1920x1080 at 24p(NTSC)
and 25p(PAL) and records over 60i and 50i respectively. It is so
called PSF-progressive segmented frame for backwards compatibility
with all old interlaced displays. It is not true that 1080/60i/50i
capture is the HD standard. Interlace capture creates numerous
artifacts that cannot be easily dealt with in postproduction. (any
FX, blubox etc become a nightmare). The standard toward which HD
moves slowly is 1080/60p/50p, but that's double the datastream and
many years away. Again, there is nothing to gain from interlaced
capture and lots to lose. There is no technical problem for a camera
that captures at 24/25p to do it at 50i/60i. Data streams are almost
the same. If Panasonic disabled this possibility (I don't know that
for sure) maybe they did it for the reason of avoiding all nasty
interlace artefacts on all modern progressive diplays (LCD, plasma).
The chance of GH1 user working on CRT interlaced display is close to
null.
Click to expand...
 
I'm quoting the below to highlight this excellent explanation:
nugat said:
--Again, 1080/24/25p and 720/60p are two different beasts. Data
streams are almost the same, but target users are different. Lower
resolution (1280x720) but at higher progressive refresh rate (60p=60
full frames per second) are better for all applications connected
with movement. Sports, military and medical movement imaging etc.
In fact it's called higher temporal resolution than 24/25p=24 or 25
full frames per second. Lower temporal but higher spatial resoliution
of the 1920x1080/24p/25p pictures is better for more static
applications: photography presentation, drama movies, big non-sport
events with lots of detail. Hence as a compromise US HDTV (ATSC)
supports both standards (among 16 or so) and stations were free to
chose in which one to broadcast. Europeans were initially for 720/60p
(EBU recommendation) but finally 1080/25p seems to have won because
of the closer route to the holy grail of 1080/50p.
Now delivery in interlaced 50i/60i is a hangover from the old days
of standard definition (NTSC 525i and PAL 625i). To maintain
compatibility with old CRT interlaced displays the recording medium
and broadcast datastream uses interlaced half-frames/fields to carry
both progressively and interlaced captured/recorded material. If
original material was captured progressively, the frame is divided
into two fields wherre every second line is shown over 50 or 60 hertz
(fields=half frames per second). It is called PSF=progressive
segmented frame delivery. Human brain puts the two fields together
into one full frame captured in the same moment of time.
Whenever possible capture should be however progressive (The whole
frame at once and not half frame=field at a time) because it avoids
all nasty interlace artefacts.
When capture is interlaced, say 50Hz or 50 half frames=fields per
second, the moving subject is rendered as blurry-it simply moved
between the moment of capturing field one and field two of the same
frame.
The topic is complicated and calls for more explanations. I can only
assure that Panasonic made an excellent choice with capture
standards, unlike Canon 5dm2 which offers only 30p.
Click to expand...
 
A lot of confusion.

1920x1080=2,073,600 pixels

times 24p (24 frames/sec) =49,766,400 pixels/sec
times 60i/30p (60 fields/half frames/sec) =62,208,000 pixels/sec

NTSC legacy land: 1080/60i datastream is 20%+ bigger than 1080/24p datastream (all other parameters like sampling equal).

1280x720=921,000 pixels
times 60p (60 frames/sec) = 55, 260,000 pixels/sec

MORE THAN 1080/24p, less than 1080/60i

To round it off for PAL land
2,073,600x50hz (25p or 50 i)= 51,840,000 pixels/sec

For all practical purposes visual datastreams that differ by ca 20% are comparable.

The difference in perception comes only from the manner of capture: proressice is inherently better than interlaced.
LizaWitz said:
florinandrei said:
not enough. Most HD camcorders today support 1080i60, which is pretty
much the de-facto standard for digital HD.
Click to expand...
1080i takes the same bandwidth as 720/30p. So, they shoot 1080i
because its ALL they can.

Nobody wants 1080i-- it offers nothing of value. Its really just a
spec that lets people say "full hd".
LizaWitz said:
This is a deal-breaker for me and possibly for many other people.
Click to expand...
It shouldn't be, because 1080/24p is much better quality wise than
1080i. Its about 4 times the bandwidth of 1080i!
Click to expand...
LizaWitz said:
LizaWitz said:
My guess is - something, maybe the sensor, maybe the electronics, is
stretched to the max, and they were just barely able to squeeze in
the 1080p24 and 720p60, but the whole thing collapsed when they tried
1080i60. So maybe the next generation will be able to support 1080i60.
Click to expand...
Nope, doesn't make sense. 720/30p and 1080i are about the same
bandwidth. 1080/24p is much higher bandwidth.

They could do 1080i and I'm not sure why they didn't have it, and 30p
and other options that seem possible given that the camera can do
1080/24p. But they chose not to.

For instance, why 720/60p and not 720/30p? I don't know why they
made that decision, but they did. Probably to make the camera less
complicated.
LizaWitz said:
I was curious about 1080p60 (which can be easily processed into
1080i60, 720p or just about anything else) but it's probably a moot
point. :-)
Click to expand...
No prosumer or consumer cameras do 1080/60p. In fact, I'm not aware
of any cameras that do that.

60p would be more than double the bandwidth of 24p, and that probably
does exceed the specs. But no big deal, I think.

Also, realize that with 24p you get %20 more bandwidth to each frame
as compared to 30p, and thus each frame will be higher quality than
30p at the same bitrate.
Click to expand...
 
penn_boysen said:
I read it was a 12 mp not a 14 mp sensor
Click to expand...
The sensor is 14 MP in order to support multiple aspect ratios, each of which gives you 12 MP. Thus for 16:9, you use the full width but not the full height of the sensor. For 4:3, you use the full height but not the full width.

--
john carson
 
didida do da do da do da said:
Panasonic you get my €, hopefully it won't be much more expensive in
Europe than in the States.
Click to expand...
The German site (digitalkamera.de) mentioned for the GH1&14-140 bundle a price of €1550, reporting the lens alone was about €900; for the 7-14 lens, €1250.
This means the GH1 will be in-between the €650-700 range, I guess.

Best regards,
Pedro
 
SteB said:
If Panasonic really want this system to sell in the way they suggest
in sales projections just after the announcement of m4/3 it will have
to get much, much cheaper. Initially Panasonic will be able to sell a
reasonable amount of the GH1 at high prices. However, ultimately the
price will have to be competitive with entry level DSLRs and decent
camcorders or else m4/3 cameras will never sell in the volume
predicted by Panasonic. You only have to look at early VCRs, CD
players then recorders, DVD players and recorders etc, etc to know
the way pricing works with these things.
Click to expand...
Since they eliminated much of the mechanical parts I believe the ultimate price can be a lot cheaper than of a DSLR. Once the design is perfected and yields are good, electronics can become extremely cheap. I don't know about the lens, but in any case it should not be more expensive than a similar zoom.

This does not mean Panasonic will lower price if they can get away with keeping it high, but potentially they will have a much better margin on the product.
GabiM
 
I am sure most of the other DSLR will get all these soon. We are just stepping into DSLR video capabilities. Its not much of a surprise on the video capabilities as its similar to a digital camcorder?
--

What camera do I have? I rather you look at my photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinz
 
Not sure about that.

It may take a long time before other (non 4:3) companies can get to the point where GH1 is now !

In addition ... why would Canon/Nikon/Sony hurry ? They will sure anger their large customer base once they switch to a new HD mount (and require new HD lenses).
Their investment in a proprietary DSLR system is just too big.
 
That's my thinking. I think the EVF was probably expensive to produce at first but that like all electronic components the production costs will fall rapidly once sales increase. As you point out the electronic nature of this type of camera is far more amenable to mass production than the complex mechanical designs of DSLRs.
 
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