Improved Live View

Has anyone heard any reports as to whether the 2009 upgrade to the Rebel will include Live View improvements to address what Sony has done with the A300/A350? The Canon is clearly the superior camera, but the Live View feature is of enormous value to the way I shoot. I'll likely get the A350 unless waiting a few months will result in a Rebel with a live view that can focus in high speed. Curious if Canon has spoken at all about the new units. I have searched this forum and Google extensively and can't find anything useful on this.

I haven't heard anything specific, but I would bet that liveview will only get better in future models. What you want to keep track of is that Canon tends to update their cameras about every 18 months for the APS-C models, and about every 3 years for their 1 series and 5 series cameras.

If I were starting over in this hobby, I would still choose from Canon or Nikon offerings, but if you like Sony, then go for it.

Regards,

Jon

GrahamRobinson said:

Has anyone heard any reports as to whether the 2009 upgrade to the
Rebel will include Live View improvements to address what Sony has
done with the A300/A350? The Canon is clearly the superior camera,
but the Live View feature is of enormous value to the way I shoot.
I'll likely get the A350 unless waiting a few months will result in a
Rebel with a live view that can focus in high speed. Curious if
Canon has spoken at all about the new units. I have searched this
forum and Google extensively and can't find anything useful on this.

Click to expand...

nothing announced yet

you can follow speculation at canonrumors.com

These Sony cameras are using very different technology for Liveview, which has advantages and disadvantages. I don't think Canon will go in that direction. Of course, Liveview on the Rebels will evolve as even Canon admits that it has important limitations in its current incarnation.

technic said:

These Sony cameras are using very different technology for Liveview,
which has advantages and disadvantages. I don't think Canon will go
in that direction. Of course, Liveview on the Rebels will evolve as
even Canon admits that it has important limitations in its current
incarnation.

Click to expand...

--

Onee the shot is taken, it is the picture that counts. Personally, for the price, I think Canon's image quality including at higher ISO is ahead of the Sonys and Pentax's of this world. I would rather have the image quality than the improved Live View. But, thats just me

Oly did it with the E-330 and then Sony with the A-3x0, but in both cases there were compromises with the viewfinder. So I'm not sure Canon are keen to go there.

What type of live view is best depends on what you want to do. If I had to choose, I'd take the imager type since it is superior for accurate focussing and preview. If you prefer the second-sensor type, then maybe you should get a Sony. Unless you can wait for PMA to see if Canon surprises us.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
--
Stop the bit-depth race!

I've got a 400d and recently a friend got a 450d and I must say that the live view made me want to rush out and upgrade immediately. I like taking shots from low angles so live view will make composing shots a much less muddy matter for me.

Can some explain what it is that is wrong / the limitations of the 450d's live view system (in simple terms please!) so I can decide whether it would be an issue for me or not and whether to wait for the next model.

Thanks,

Matt

mattswain said:

I've got a 400d and recently a friend got a 450d and I must say that
the live view made me want to rush out and upgrade immediately. I
like taking shots from low angles so live view will make composing
shots a much less muddy matter for me.

Click to expand...

A tilt LCD would make that easier.

mattswain said:

Can some explain what it is that is wrong / the limitations of the
450d's live view system (in simple terms please!) so I can decide
whether it would be an issue for me or not and whether to wait for
the next model.

Click to expand...

AF is sluggish since it uses contrast-detect AF. The AF in the Sonys and the E-330 uses phase detect, the standard fast AF of a DSLR, so it is fast and can thus be used hand held easier. But Canon's is better than Sony's for tripod work.

Contrast detect AF can be made fast, but it may take new lenses and a new contact in the lens mount.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden

--
beth

Ehrik said:

mattswain said:

I've got a 400d and recently a friend got a 450d and I must say that
the live view made me want to rush out and upgrade immediately. I
like taking shots from low angles so live view will make composing
shots a much less muddy matter for me.

Click to expand...

A tilt LCD would make that easier.

Ehrik said:

Can some explain what it is that is wrong / the limitations of the
450d's live view system (in simple terms please!) so I can decide
whether it would be an issue for me or not and whether to wait for
the next model.

Click to expand...

AF is sluggish since it uses contrast-detect AF. The AF in the Sonys
and the E-330 uses phase detect, the standard fast AF of a DSLR, so
it is fast and can thus be used hand held easier. But Canon's is
better than Sony's for tripod work.

Contrast detect AF can be made fast, but it may take new lenses and a
new contact in the lens mount.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden

Click to expand...

Agreed - the contrast detect AF in the Olympus E-420 is faster than the Canon EOS 1000D's version, for example (I name these two as I am familiar with both in use); it also offers multiple AF points in contrast detect mode if required (the Canons do not) - but at the cost of only being compatible with some lenses (though all can be used with a hybrid version of the AF,which acts like contrast AF whilst in live view but then does a quick mirror-flip phase-detect cycle when you press the shutter release all the way). On the other hand, in non-live view use (or if optionally using it in live view, which you can on Canon or Olympus) the Olympus's phase detect (normal DSLR AF) isn't as fast as Canon's and has only 3 points.

The major oddity of the Canon system (I find) is the divorcing of the AF actuation in live view from the shutter release button. As most will know, it's on the right thumb-actuated * button instead. I find this counterintuitive, and Canon also seems to have chosen (if you opt to use phase-detect in live view) to keep the mirror down (blocking live view) after achieving an AF lock until you let go of the * button. Taking the Olympus as a comparison again, its contrast-detect (and hybrid) AF systems are actuated by half-pressure on the shutter release, though to be fair, its phase-detect is also separated to a back-panel button in live view - though it does automatically return live view once AF is achieved, rather than waiting for you to stop pressing that button.

I wonder why Canon chose to design it this way? I would have thought it is the result of their choice on how one should use live view (in a considered way, and only when necessary, I assume) rather than them being actually unable to provide AF functiionality on the shutter release button for live view.

mattswain said:

I've got a 400d and recently a friend got a 450d and I must say that
the live view made me want to rush out and upgrade immediately. I
like taking shots from low angles so live view will make composing
shots a much less muddy matter for me.

Can some explain what it is that is wrong / the limitations of the
450d's live view system (in simple terms please!) so I can decide
whether it would be an issue for me or not and whether to wait for
the next model.

Thanks,

Matt

Click to expand...

Aside from the other replies on other points (including my own) it's perhaps worth pointing out, for the record, that only the Sony A300/A350 (and the discontinued Olympus E-330) with their secondary-sensor AF systems allow continuous AF to be used in live view mode (the only other current digital camera that's not a compact digicam to allow this is the Panasonic G1, but it's not a DSLR, exactly). In live view on DSLRs except those the choice is single-shot AF or manual focus only.

I bought Panasonic G1 for this reason, but decided to return it because I like Canon image quality much better. If they improve Live View, I'd the first in line.

technic said:

Of course, Liveview on the Rebels will evolve as
even Canon admits that it has important limitations in its current
incarnation.

Click to expand...

And not much on the benefit side. How many users really find it of such value that it should take R&D resources.

Helen said:

Agreed - the contrast detect AF in the Olympus E-420 is faster than
the Canon EOS 1000D's version

Click to expand...

The lenses make a huge difference for the contrast AF. USM lenses focus noticably quicker and the old arc-form drive lenses (e.g. 35mm f/2) can be very slow.

Helen said:

The major oddity of the Canon system (I find) is the divorcing of the
AF actuation in live view from the shutter release button. As most
will know, it's on the right thumb-actuated * button instead. I find
this counterintuitive,

Click to expand...

It's not counterintuitive if you've ever used the feature than can assign AF to the * button for normal shooting. When you get used to it, its quite handy to separate AF from AE or other shutter presses.

Helen said:

I wonder why Canon chose to design it this way?

Click to expand...

At least for the "quick mode" AF, I suspect Canon thinks that it may be more confusing to hear the camera click like it's taken a photo when it's only focusing. Also since focusing is slower, focusing each time you press the shutter increases the shutter lag significantly.

--
Erik

Erik Magnuson said:

Member said:

I wonder why Canon chose to design it this way?

Click to expand...

At least for the "quick mode" AF, I suspect Canon thinks that it may
be more confusing to hear the camera click like it's taken a photo
when it's only focusing. Also since focusing is slower, focusing
each time you press the shutter increases the shutter lag
significantly.

Click to expand...

That's a persuasive explanation.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden

maybe it does not have much on the benefit side YET, for the average user. However, to me LV is valuable already in its current form, e.g. because one can check/get accurate focus, which seems impossible with many 450D bodies using normal AF. And it can help in other situations where normal viewfinder/AF does not work well (e.g. astro/photomicro/remote photography). I think future LV versions , with more advanced sensor/Digic technology, will improve AF function, making it useful for normal photography as well.

If they add a flipout LCD like the Pana G1 that would be great even if it updates slowly (most of all for shots low to the ground, as in macro/nature photography), but not likely they will add that for the lowcost Rebel series

Live view would be GREAT if it was faster AND used the actual image sensor (sony uses a seperate sensor). Focusing would be very accurate is why I am for better/faster live-view.

My recollection is that Canon said they are working on faster live view when interviewed a few (6-9) months ago.

technic said:

maybe it does not have much on the benefit side YET, for the average
user. However, to me LV is valuable already in its current form, e.g.
because one can check/get accurate focus, which seems impossible with

Click to expand...

yes, the Sony LV system has the potential to introduce new AF problems. In budget DSLRs (with probably less exact mechanics/optics assembly) this is not a good idea.

I think Canon made the right decision to use the main sensor for LV, and I remember reading they are working on AF speed. Could take some time though, and maybe changes in the lenses / lens mount are required to get acceptable speed (check what is going on with other cameras like the Pana G1).

GrahamRobinson said:

Has anyone heard any reports as to whether the 2009 upgrade to the
Rebel will include Live View improvements to address what Sony has
done with the A300/A350? The Canon is clearly the superior camera,
but the Live View feature is of enormous value to the way I shoot.
I'll likely get the A350 unless waiting a few months will result in a
Rebel with a live view that can focus in high speed. Curious if
Canon has spoken at all about the new units. I have searched this
forum and Google extensively and can't find anything useful on this.

Click to expand...

Several weeks ago I had a conversation with someone at Canon Factory Service who had spent the morning shooting with the XSi to familiarize himself with it out in the real world. He said he was impressed by LIve View, but agreed the focus was too slow to be generally useful. He said that it was likely to be a candidate for improvement with a firmware upgrade of the XSi, but didn't give a any hints as to when. He said the next model in the line would definitely improve on this.

I put this in the unconfirmed rumor category. My suspicion is that they will wait until the next model to really speed it up, maybe to compete a bit with the G1 in that regard, and to entice people to buy a new camera. Contrast autofocus appears to be significantly more accurate than methods that use phase, and the G1 proves it can be done very quickly.

Joe