RAW and image editing choice

[Ysarex]

Hi all, thanks for your help - apologies for the delay replying, it's been a funny few weeks.

I decided in the end not to rush to get something, but to experiment more with Canon Digital Photo Professional (and perhaps an old edition of PS Elements) while thinking things through further.

I recently bought Affinity Photo 2 and I am quite impressed with its ease of use, features and maturity. It's inexpensive to buy and does all the things you mentioned and a lot more.

Sorry, Affinity Photo is a pixel level editor akin to Photoshop or GIMP - but it does very very poorly at RAW development. I would never advise anyone looking for basic image manipulation to use Affinity Photo in its current shoddy state of the RAW development persona.

It is probably not as capable in raw development as some other programs. I am currently learning the program and have so far got good results, including noise reduction for ISO 3200 images, slider and curve based level setting, perspective correction and other common tasks. I have used Capture One before and on balance Affinity can do most of the things I need to do. The OP has already some experience and can try Affinity himself to decide.

Affinity is the wrong tool for the job if you want to develop RAW photos. Most of its capabilities are tied to pixel editing with no way to change the basic RAW development later if you find out that you made wrong decisions early on. All "real" RAW converters do so parametrically - that means that if you find out that your initial development was not what you really needed you can revisit that development and adjust to remedy that. In Affinity you have to start over.

This is incorrect. That was true of Affinity version 1 but corrected in version 2. In the current version you have the option to work through the Develop Persona and pass to the main pixel editor 1) a pixel layer, 2) a RAW layer (embedded) or 3) a RAW layer (linked). In both options 2) and 3) the RAW layer will permit you to return to the Develop Persona and further adjust the raw conversion.

So: Do not use Affinity for RAW development, it's as if you use a hammer where a screwdriver is needed.

 

[ishwanu]

... Affinity is the wrong tool for the job if you want to develop RAW photos. Most of its capabilities are tied to pixel editing with no way to change the basic RAW development later if you find out that you made wrong decisions early on. All "real" RAW converters do so parametrically - that means that if you find out that your initial development was not what you really needed you can revisit that development and adjust to remedy that. In Affinity you have to start over.

This is incorrect. That was true of Affinity version 1 but corrected in version 2. In the current version you have the option to work through the Develop Persona and pass to the main pixel editor 1) a pixel layer, 2) a RAW layer (embedded) or 3) a RAW layer (linked). In both options 2) and 3) the RAW layer will permit you to return to the Develop Persona and further adjust the raw conversion.

Yep ... and if you choose the linked option, the .afphoto sidecar file that retains the parameters is tiny rather than a huge one that's created with the other options.

 

[Addlepate]

Hello @Zeee, thanks.

You make a strong case. I need to look into the subscription models (and trials, and cancellation) more, and I'm not dismissing it; to me the benefits would be the sort of things you list; the drawbacks, and what I'm wary of, the ongoing repeat costs for what for us would be intermittent use, and might not be use at all if partner doesn't get on with it. I suppose also it feels like hire purchase or leasing; I like to own what I buy!

It's not for everyone. Owning software is a myth to me. Most of the big players have annual upgrade cycles. The previous version is not supported so if you get a new camera it won't work. Many have replied that I don't buy a new camera every year which is true. Camera cycles are 2 to 4 years. If you read these forums people can hardly wait to get the new one. The day you can pre-order people are posting they had done it.

I upgraded every year when I had perpetual licenses so it's all the same thing to me. Note: I think that some companies have started providing at least RAW support for older versions but I can't name anyone. You'd have to check that out. It won't be 2 years later.

I think part of it is we are just not serious enough, at our current stage of photography, to be upgrading that often or to need to commit to the subscription model. TBH that old LR6 and a ten + year old PS Elements did everything I wanted to do, and more; though I'm sure new ones do it better. I think probably the way to go for us is experiment a bit and see how much more we get into it, then maybe think about subscription if the use justifies it.

 

[Zeee]

Hello @Zeee, thanks.

You make a strong case. I need to look into the subscription models (and trials, and cancellation) more, and I'm not dismissing it; to me the benefits would be the sort of things you list; the drawbacks, and what I'm wary of, the ongoing repeat costs for what for us would be intermittent use, and might not be use at all if partner doesn't get on with it. I suppose also it feels like hire purchase or leasing; I like to own what I buy!

It's not for everyone. Owning software is a myth to me. Most of the big players have annual upgrade cycles. The previous version is not supported so if you get a new camera it won't work. Many have replied that I don't buy a new camera every year which is true. Camera cycles are 2 to 4 years. If you read these forums people can hardly wait to get the new one. The day you can pre-order people are posting they had done it.

I upgraded every year when I had perpetual licenses so it's all the same thing to me. Note: I think that some companies have started providing at least RAW support for older versions but I can't name anyone. You'd have to check that out. It won't be 2 years later.

I think part of it is we are just not serious enough, at our current stage of photography, to be upgrading that often or to need to commit to the subscription model. TBH that old LR6 and a ten + year old PS Elements did everything I wanted to do, and more; though I'm sure new ones do it better. I think probably the way to go for us is experiment a bit and see how much more we get into it, then maybe think about subscription if the use justifies it.

There are people out there who do that and there is nothing wrong with that. As long as the OS supports it great. Part of hobby includes getting a new camera release. I’ve been updating with the latest cameras since 2005. Affinity v1 won’t support my two current camera and I was under the impression it would. I didn’t even get a year out of another one.

So it will last a lifetime if you keep your camera gear for life. It won’t if you replace your camera/s often. The only reason I brought this up because people who don’t like subscription (and there is nothing wrong with that) use that general statement and it’s not true.

--
I roll with pleasing colour

 

[Zeee]

Hello @Zeee, thanks.

You make a strong case. I need to look into the subscription models (and trials, and cancellation) more, and I'm not dismissing it; to me the benefits would be the sort of things you list; the drawbacks, and what I'm wary of, the ongoing repeat costs for what for us would be intermittent use, and might not be use at all if partner doesn't get on with it. I suppose also it feels like hire purchase or leasing; I like to own what I buy!

It's not for everyone. Owning software is a myth to me. Most of the big players have annual upgrade cycles. The previous version is not supported so if you get a new camera it won't work. Many have replied that I don't buy a new camera every year which is true. Camera cycles are 2 to 4 years. If you read these forums people can hardly wait to get the new one. The day you can pre-order people are posting they had done it.

I upgraded every year when I had perpetual licenses so it's all the same thing to me. Note: I think that some companies have started providing at least RAW support for older versions but I can't name anyone. You'd have to check that out. It won't be 2 years later.

I think part of it is we are just not serious enough, at our current stage of photography, to be upgrading that often or to need to commit to the subscription model. TBH that old LR6 and a ten + year old PS Elements did everything I wanted to do, and more; though I'm sure new ones do it better. I think probably the way to go for us is experiment a bit and see how much more we get into it, then maybe think about subscription if the use justifies it.

There are people out there who do that and there is nothing wrong with that. As long as the OS supports it great. Part of hobby includes getting a new camera release. I’ve been updating with the latest cameras since 2005. Affinity v1 won’t support my two current camera and I was under the impression it would. I didn’t even get a year out of another one.

So it will last a lifetime if you keep your camera gear for life. It won’t if you replace your camera/s often. The only reason I brought this up because people who don’t like subscription (and there is nothing wrong with that) use that general statement and it’s not true.

Here you go. The new system made older versions unusable. This is inevitable for both Mac and Windows.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68075807

 

[VidJa]

Happy new year.

try something ‘new’, get rid of any subscription? Open source is the way to.



DarkTable just released version 5, works fine on Windows, Mac and Linux. No fancy AI (yet, some are working on it)

darktable

darktable is an open source photography workflow application and raw developer

darktable.org

Krita is offers similar tools as Affinity and is way beyond older versions of photoshop

https://krita.org/en/

Gimp just released version 3rc2. According to some its difficult, but not any more difficult than the latest version of photoshop

GIMP

GIMP - The GNU Image Manipulation Program: The Free and Open Source Image Editor

gimp.org

once you have learned these tools you are free. No need for subscriptions, good use of older hardware.

the only thing you have to invest is time, time to learn a few new things, which can be done in a couple of evenings.

have fun in the new year

 

[Ysarex]

Happy new year.

try something ‘new’, get rid of any subscription? Open source is the way to.

DarkTable just released version 5, works fine on Windows, Mac and Linux. No fancy AI (yet, some are working on it)

https://darktable.org

Krita is offers similar tools as Affinity and is way beyond older versions of photoshop

https://krita.org

Gimp just released version 3rc2. According to some its difficult, but not any more difficult than the latest version of photoshop

https://gimp.org

once you have learned these tools you are free.

No you're stuck with poor preforming tools that fail constantly and/or lack important features.

No need for subscriptions, good use of older hardware.

the only thing you have to invest is time, time to learn a few new things, which can be done in a couple of evenings.

Time is money. DarkTable is the most expensive raw processing software available. Let's do a for instance; One critical function of a raw processing app that I rely on is highlight reconstruction. So how does DarkTable compare then with say Capture One?

What do I have to do in Capture One to apply highlight reconstruction?

Step one: Open the file. Done.

How good is it? Best in the industry hands down.

That was easy now on to DarkTable.

Step One: Where is highlight reconstruction in DarkTable? One of the heavier used modules in DarkTable is filmic rgb and OK there's a reconstruct tab. Click that and there's a check box for highlight reconstruction. Check the box and nothing..... Well there's four sliders below the box; threshold, transition, texture, and bloom. Sliders don't seem to help -- in fact threshold is making it worse.

Bleep bleep off to the internet to see if I can figure out what I'm missing. PIXLS.US has a forum question, "Reconstructing blown highlights; "darktable 4.0 user manual states that: A better alternative [to using the highlight reconstruction module] is to disable highlight reconstruction and instead use the reconstruct tab on the filmic rgb module.... Which one should I prefer?"

There's a highlight reconstruction module? OK, but the manual says use the filmic rgb option which I've tried and isn't working. Read through the thread. Watch linked video -- not applicable. Keep reading... posters are arguing about which option to use. Best advice: "Just try the different methods and see which works best on the individual image."

Back to DarkTable and look at the highlight reconstruction module. Bleep bleep bleep! There's a drop menu for method and four different options, BLEEP! Look at the four options and one of them has three sliders plus another drop menu with with seven options. BLEEP! OK the inpaint opposed method only has one slider and it is working -- doing a mediocre job. The clip highlights method just gives up and nukes the highlights. The reconstruct in LCh method has one slider and also works but inpaint opposed works better (at least for this image).

The segmentation based method also works but has three sliders and that seven option drop menu -- so what 10,000 permutations?... be back in a while....

Oh dear Lord the seven drop menu choices each have two additional sliders! BLEEP!

OK, the segmentation based method works as well as inpaint opposed and possibly a little better after you start to understand the sliders and menu options.

How good is DarkTable then at highlight reconstruction? Mediocre if and when you can figure out how to do it, compared with Capture One not nearly as good.

A license for C1 is $299 with less expensive upgrade options becoming available after that initial purchase. I would gladly pay that $299 once a year every year rather than have to use something as expensive as DarkTabke. That was just highlight reconstruction, shall we move on to noise? BLEEP!

have fun in the new year

 

[VidJa]

Happy new year.

try something ‘new’, get rid of any subscription? Open source is the way to.

DarkTable just released version 5, works fine on Windows, Mac and Linux. No fancy AI (yet, some are working on it)

https://darktable.org

Krita is offers similar tools as Affinity and is way beyond older versions of photoshop

https://krita.org

Gimp just released version 3rc2. According to some its difficult, but not any more difficult than the latest version of photoshop

https://gimp.org

once you have learned these tools you are free.

No you're stuck with poor preforming tools that fail constantly and/or lack important features.

No need for subscriptions, good use of older hardware.

the only thing you have to invest is time, time to learn a few new things, which can be done in a couple of evenings.

Time is money. DarkTable is the most expensive raw processing software available. Let's do a for instance; One critical function of a raw processing app that I rely on is highlight reconstruction. So how does DarkTable compare then with say Capture One?

What do I have to do in Capture One to apply highlight reconstruction?

less than one click, part of the base modules. If needed you can go further using the color rgb module, tone curve and other module that would fit your need, tailored to the underlying image

Step one: Open the file. Done.

How good is it? Best in the industry hands down.

• That was easy now on to DarkTable.

Step One: Where is highlight reconstruction in DarkTable? One of the heavier used modules in DarkTable is filmic rgb and OK there's a reconstruct tab. Click that and there's a check box for highlight reconstruction. Check the box and nothing..... Well there's four sliders below the box; threshold, transition, texture, and bloom. Sliders don't seem to help -- in fact threshold is making it worse.

tou definitely have not checked DT recently. Filmic is replaced my sigmoid, hl reconstruction is mostly automatic

Bleep bleep off to the internet to see if I can figure out what I'm missing. PIXLS.US has a forum question, "Reconstructing blown highlights; "darktable 4.0 user manual states that: A better alternative [to using the highlight reconstruction module] is to disable highlight reconstruction and instead use the reconstruct tab on the filmic rgb module.... Which one should I prefer?"

There's a highlight reconstruction module? OK, but the manual says use the filmic rgb option which I've tried and isn't working. Read through the thread. Watch linked video -- not applicable. Keep reading... posters are arguing about which option to use. Best advice: "Just try the different methods and see which works best on the individual image."

At least you have the options. All the above, albeit obsolete, can still be used if you like

Back to DarkTable and look at the highlight reconstruction module. Bleep bleep bleep! There's a drop menu for method and four different options, BLEEP! Look at the four options and one of them has three sliders plus another drop menu with with seven options. BLEEP! OK the inpaint opposed method only has one slider and it is working -- doing a mediocre job. The clip highlights method just gives up and nukes the highlights. The reconstruct in LCh method has one slider and also works but inpaint opposed works better (at least for this image).

The segmentation based method also works but has three sliders and that seven option drop menu -- so what 10,000 permutations?... be back in a while....

Oh dear Lord the seven drop menu choices each have two additional sliders! BLEEP!

OK, the segmentation based method works as well as inpaint opposed and possibly a little better after you start to understand the sliders and menu options.

How good is DarkTable then at highlight reconstruction? Mediocre if and when you can figure out how to do it, compared with Capture One not nearly as good.

yet again, I don’t recognise any of your rants. Clearly you are lightyears behind with your dt version

A license for C1 is $299 with less expensive upgrade options becoming available after that initial purchase. I would gladly pay that $299 once a year every year rather than have to use something as expensive as DarkTabke. That was just highlight reconstruction, shall we move on to noise? BLEEP!

Profiled noise reduction is one click, fully adjustable. Thge diffuse and sharpen module gives you another versatile denoise option based on physics

$299 is a 85mm af-s f/1.8 in superb condition on MPB

Using LR ánd C1 since 2007 via my employer I can surely say that if you need more time in DT,compared to the other options, you should spend more time with it.

if you are a pro, license costs are nothing and you shouldn’t even spend time responding

have fun in the new year

 

[Ysarex]

Happy new year.

try something ‘new’, get rid of any subscription? Open source is the way to.

DarkTable just released version 5, works fine on Windows, Mac and Linux. No fancy AI (yet, some are working on it)

https://darktable.org

Krita is offers similar tools as Affinity and is way beyond older versions of photoshop

https://krita.org

Gimp just released version 3rc2. According to some its difficult, but not any more difficult than the latest version of photoshop

https://gimp.org

once you have learned these tools you are free.

No you're stuck with poor preforming tools that fail constantly and/or lack important features.

No need for subscriptions, good use of older hardware.

the only thing you have to invest is time, time to learn a few new things, which can be done in a couple of evenings.

Time is money. DarkTable is the most expensive raw processing software available. Let's do a for instance; One critical function of a raw processing app that I rely on is highlight reconstruction. So how does DarkTable compare then with say Capture One?

What do I have to do in Capture One to apply highlight reconstruction?

less than one click, part of the base modules. If needed you can go further using the color rgb module, tone curve and other module that would fit your need, tailored to the underlying image

No, That's what you have to do in DarkTable, not C1.

Step one: Open the file. Done.

How good is it? Best in the industry hands down.

• That was easy now on to DarkTable.

Step One: Where is highlight reconstruction in DarkTable? One of the heavier used modules in DarkTable is filmic rgb and OK there's a reconstruct tab. Click that and there's a check box for highlight reconstruction. Check the box and nothing..... Well there's four sliders below the box; threshold, transition, texture, and bloom. Sliders don't seem to help -- in fact threshold is making it worse.

tou definitely have not checked DT recently.

You know so much about me! I'm using version 5.0

Filmic is replaced my sigmoid,

In version 5.0 filmic is the base module that activates in the scene referred workflow. Sigmoid isn't even included in the scene referred workflow.

hl reconstruction is mostly automatic

The highlight reconstruction module activates as a base module in the scene referred workflow but how do you know the mediocre default result is the best method? Why are so many methods available? Why is there another method available in an entirely different module? It should just work. If you don't do anything other than accept the default you're left with a mediocre result that doesn't compare with commercial software.

Bleep bleep off to the internet to see if I can figure out what I'm missing. PIXLS.US has a forum question, "Reconstructing blown highlights; "darktable 4.0 user manual states that: A better alternative [to using the highlight reconstruction module] is to disable highlight reconstruction and instead use the reconstruct tab on the filmic rgb module.... Which one should I prefer?"

There's a highlight reconstruction module? OK, but the manual says use the filmic rgb option which I've tried and isn't working. Read through the thread. Watch linked video -- not applicable. Keep reading... posters are arguing about which option to use. Best advice: "Just try the different methods and see which works best on the individual image."

At least you have the options.

That's part of the problem. Highlight reconstruction (do you know what it is?) shouldn't need to provide options if it's done right. This is the kind of thing that's wrong with DarkTable.

All the above, albeit obsolete, can still be used if you like

Back to DarkTable and look at the highlight reconstruction module. Bleep bleep bleep! There's a drop menu for method and four different options, BLEEP! Look at the four options and one of them has three sliders plus another drop menu with with seven options. BLEEP! OK the inpaint opposed method only has one slider and it is working -- doing a mediocre job. The clip highlights method just gives up and nukes the highlights. The reconstruct in LCh method has one slider and also works but inpaint opposed works better (at least for this image).

The segmentation based method also works but has three sliders and that seven option drop menu -- so what 10,000 permutations?... be back in a while....

Oh dear Lord the seven drop menu choices each have two additional sliders! BLEEP!

OK, the segmentation based method works as well as inpaint opposed and possibly a little better after you start to understand the sliders and menu options.

How good is DarkTable then at highlight reconstruction? Mediocre if and when you can figure out how to do it, compared with Capture One not nearly as good.

yet again, I don’t recognise any of your rants. Clearly you are lightyears behind with your dt version

Version 5.0

A license for C1 is $299 with less expensive upgrade options becoming available after that initial purchase. I would gladly pay that $299 once a year every year rather than have to use something as expensive as DarkTabke. That was just highlight reconstruction, shall we move on to noise? BLEEP!

Profiled noise reduction is one click, fully adjustable. Thge diffuse and sharpen module gives you another versatile denoise option based on physics

Compared it lately with DXO PL8? PL8 noise filtering is lightyears ahead of DT.

What about input profiles? DT offers basically nothing. Yes, you can go get your own. That's another thing that's wrong with DT. You have to go get your own.

What if you want to do what all the pros in the industry do for exported images that require further editing and export to the ProPhotoRGB color space? DarkTable's linear ProPhoto is not ProPhotoRGB.

$299 is a 85mm af-s f/1.8 in superb condition on MPB

Using LR ánd C1 since 2007 via my employer I can surely say that if you need more time in DT,compared to the other options, you should spend more time with it.

if you are a pro, license costs are nothing and you shouldn’t even spend time responding

have fun in the new year

 

[ATP62]

I don't use darktable. So I wonder , how good is it with highlight recovery shadow lifting and noise reduction.

Link to a RAW file from another thread :

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e7qd...pumdqmo4gkqmxicenmfy67ty&e=1&st=2datago8&dl=0

 

[Ysarex]

I don't use darktable. So I wonder , how good is it with highlight recovery shadow lifting and noise reduction.

Link to a RAW file from another thread :

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e7qd...pumdqmo4gkqmxicenmfy67ty&e=1&st=2datago8&dl=0

For reference here it is processed in DXO PL8 with default DeepPrime XD noise filtering.



If I process it in DarkTabke I'll probably get accused of bias so maybe our friend, VidJa, can show us what Darktabke can do. If not I'll go ahead and do it.

 

[Digital Nigel]

I don't use darktable. So I wonder , how good is it with highlight recovery shadow lifting and noise reduction.

Link to a RAW file from another thread :

Dropbox

For reference here it is processed in DXO PL8 with default DeepPrime XD noise filtering.

PL8 can do much better than that:




PL8 with DO XD2s

If I process it in DarkTabke I'll probably get accused of bias so maybe our friend, VidJa, can show us what Darktabke can do. If not I'll go ahead and do it.

 

[Ysarex]

I don't use darktable. So I wonder , how good is it with highlight recovery shadow lifting and noise reduction.

Link to a RAW file from another thread :

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e7qd...pumdqmo4gkqmxicenmfy67ty&e=1&st=2datago8&dl=0

For reference here it is processed in DXO PL8 with default DeepPrime XD noise filtering.

PL8 can do much better than that:

View attachment 3503390
PL8 with DO XD2s

PL8 can do much better than that. There was a specific request for how far highlight recovery and shadow lifting could go. I'm a C1 user but I did a little more tweaking on it in PL8 and responded to the request.

If I process it in DarkTabke I'll probably get accused of bias so maybe our friend, VidJa, can show us what Darktabke can do. If not I'll go ahead and do it.

 

[Digital Nigel]

I don't use darktable. So I wonder , how good is it with highlight recovery shadow lifting and noise reduction.

Link to a RAW file from another thread :

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e7qd...pumdqmo4gkqmxicenmfy67ty&e=1&st=2datago8&dl=0

For reference here it is processed in DXO PL8 with default DeepPrime XD noise filtering.

PL8 can do much better than that:

View attachment 3503390
PL8 with DO XD2s

PL8 can do much better than that. There was a specific request for how far highlight recovery and shadow lifting could go. I'm a C1 user but I did a little more tweaking on it in PL8 and responded to the request.

How did you use DeepPRIME XD on that image in PL8? It’s no longer available in PL8.

If I process it in DarkTabke I'll probably get accused of bias so maybe our friend, VidJa, can show us what Darktabke can do. If not I'll go ahead and do it.

 

[Ysarex]

I don't use darktable. So I wonder , how good is it with highlight recovery shadow lifting and noise reduction.

Link to a RAW file from another thread :

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e7qd...pumdqmo4gkqmxicenmfy67ty&e=1&st=2datago8&dl=0

For reference here it is processed in DXO PL8 with default DeepPrime XD noise filtering.

PL8 can do much better than that:

View attachment 3503390
PL8 with DO XD2s

PL8 can do much better than that. There was a specific request for how far highlight recovery and shadow lifting could go. I'm a C1 user but I did a little more tweaking on it in PL8 and responded to the request.

How did you use DeepPRIME XD on that image in PL8? It’s no longer available in PL8.

Looks like I missed typing the 2.

If I process it in DarkTabke I'll probably get accused of bias so maybe our friend, VidJa, can show us what Darktabke can do. If not I'll go ahead and do it.

 

[VidJa]

I’m travelling for work this week, so go ahead.

don’t forget to publish a copy of your sidecar file for reproducibility

 

[StrugglingforLight]

I don't use darktable. So I wonder , how good is it with highlight recovery shadow lifting and noise reduction.

Link to a RAW file from another thread :

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e7qd...pumdqmo4gkqmxicenmfy67ty&e=1&st=2datago8&dl=0

For reference here it is processed in DXO PL8 with default DeepPrime XD noise filtering.



If I process it in DarkTabke I'll probably get accused of bias so maybe our friend, VidJa, can show us what Darktabke can do. If not I'll go ahead and do it.

Darktable can't compete with any of the AI denoise tools, plain and simple. It's likely to never make it's way into Darktable at that. No AI masking either.

I love open source software but wish the developers would focus their efforts on one main project. You got Rawtherapee and it's main fork ART and Dartkable and it's main fork Ansel. IIRC the forks are split offs from one of the previous developers. None of them are as intuitive to use as LrC or DxO, etc.

 

[Ysarex]

I’m travelling for work this week, so go ahead.

You're the DarkTable expert -- we can wait.

don’t forget to publish a copy of your sidecar file for reproducibility