NY Times on MP counts and today's new cameras

Henry E

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From the article:
Another advantage of a larger sensor is the ability to produce images
where only a relatively small portion of the subject is in
focus. Completely understanding how this works may require a degree in
physics, but in general, cameras with small sensors tend to produce
images where almost everything appears to be in focus.
I can think of about half a dozen ways to word that better. And then he jumps into Phil's quote about "chroma and luminance noise" and dynamic range without bothering to explain what any of those terms mean. Just shows that there is little or no fairness in terms of who's lucky enough to get paid for their writing. I remember visiting the NY Times as a kid during a school field trip in the 70's, when they were in the last few years of "hot type" and just starting to get computers. Now that was something to see...
 
This is a link to a story in today's November 13th 2008 NY Times
regarding rising MP counts and the effect, or "lack of benefit", on
photos in new camera releases. DP review is a prominent source of
information. I found it interesting, and thought it germane for
others to be aware of, and have the opportunity to read for
themselves.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/technology/personaltech/13basics.html?_r=1&8dpc&oref=slogin
Sounds to me like someone is attempting to justify their opinions by getting those opinions printed in a major news paper.

Really good journalism will try to represent both sides of the story equally.

It's interesting that nothing was mentioned about the uproar Dpreview's review has caused amongst 50D users, and the general lack of agreement many of those users have over the opinions expressed in that review.

Reading that NYT article kind of reminded of watching the Fox News Channel - I got the distinct feeling that it was a very deliberate atempt at agenda reporting where only one side of the story was being represented, and of course, that represented side was the ONLY side that really mattered. To heck with the REST of the facts. ;)

--
bryan
--------
http://bryanw.zenfolio.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oakandacorns/sets/



Canon 50D Images: http://bryanw.zenfolio.com/p949109255
 
This is a link to a story in today's November 13th 2008 NY Times
regarding rising MP counts and the effect, or "lack of benefit", on
photos in new camera releases. DP review is a prominent source of
information. I found it interesting, and thought it germane for
others to be aware of, and have the opportunity to read for
themselves.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/technology/personaltech/13basics.html?_r=1&8dpc&oref=slogin
Sounds to me like someone is attempting to justify their opinions by
getting those opinions printed in a major news paper.
Agreed.
Really good journalism will try to represent both sides of the story
equally.
Agreed. Something the Liberal media NEVER does.
It's interesting that nothing was mentioned about the uproar
Dpreview's review has caused amongst 50D users, and the general lack
of agreement many of those users have over the opinions expressed in
that review.
Interesting? Yes. Surprising? No.

I'm really curious to see how Phil will paint the picture when the inevitable D400 comes out and has say 16MP? He's going to tout the whole "the Nikon is best camera, look at how it trumps the Canon's resolution." I'm just waiting for that.
Reading that NYT article kind of reminded of watching the Fox News
Channel - I got the distinct feeling that it was a very deliberate
atempt at agenda reporting where only one side of the story was being
represented, and of course, that represented side was the ONLY side
that really mattered. To heck with the REST of the facts. ;)
Sorry, but do you think CNN and MSNBC and NBC and CBS (probably the worst of all) and ABC News (although a little better than the rest of the aforementioned) are TRULY non-partisan? Come On! You can choose to not watch FOX News, but don't be so naive and carry the party line against the 1 opposing opinion being voiced.

This country was built on the premise that we have a right to our opinions. Republicans and Democrats (and even the Green, and Reform parties too). 98% of the media outlets are strong leftist Democrat pundits and have conditioned you to talk down against the one opposing voice on the TV - FOX News. You as a good lemming follow the line... right off the proverbial cliff. Don't be that way. If you don't like Fox News - CHANGE THE CHANNEL. I think Katie Couric is a f*cking ******, who couldn't sign her name without a cue-card and an assistant, so I simply don't watch her.

-Alan
 
Why don't you guys start your own forum, or quit your crying. If the results of one camera review cause you to have these kind of reactions, then IMHO your lives are pretty shallow.

Get out there and use your cameras.

--
Jim from Cambridge Canada

Canon EOS 30D Sigma 18-200 3.5-6.3 OS Canon Speedlite 430EX
 
n/t
 
It's too bad he used only the opinions of Phil Askey and did not do further research before printing the article. A few minutes spent with the "comparometer" at Imaging Resource would have presented a different story but that was not the intent of the article. The author simply used the one example he knew of that supported his agenda.

Nothing to see here so please move along.

Bob
--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
My PBASE page is new and growing so please be patient.
 
This kind of article is what we expect to get from the mass media these days.

I think there are some good points made in that article, particularly with respect to the size of the sensors affecting the "look" of the images we get.

The point about that "video" look is a very valid one.

For many many years, I've always been able to tell immediately, while watching TV, whether a show was shot on video tape or film.

I think there are a number of visual cues, one of which is the presence or lack of the need for frame-rate conversion. And then there's auto exposure and other details.

But clearly, one big "tell" has been the much deeper DOF that we typically see in a video recording versus what might have been seen in something shot on 35mm film.

As for the megapixel thing....

I think that overall, the article was correct. For the typical P&S shooter, anything over about 6 megapixels is probably a waste. Yet we see P&S cameras showing up with ever increasing numbers of pixels, and to the untrained masses, that's a big selling point.

Ohh, it's got 14 megapixels, it's got to be a better camera than that one with only 12 megapixels!

We all know there's a LOT more to it than that, and it's reasonable for someone to come out and say it.

But the same oversimplification that leads to people thinking that more pixels is always better can go the other way with people stating that more pixels is now automatically bad.

As has been seen on this form for the last few weeks, this is NOT a trivial subject, and even very intelligent and informed people can end up with different ideas about this. And even a highly-regarded source such as DPR can find themselves stepping into a deeper swamp than they anticipated, and even making mistakes when it comes to evaluating today's amazing cameras.

That article would have needed to be very long to really cover the pros and cons and to go into the real details of this. And it would have required some serious research on the part of the writer, too.

That article was not well researched, not balanced, and not extremely tech-savvy.

Then again, it was not aimed at people who really care about any of this.

Still, it's disappointing to see people being somewhat mislead by an oversimplified and poorly researched article.

This forum is full of serious camera nerds. We can't expect the typical consumer or the typical periodical to put the kind of effort into this that we feel is necessary or appropriate.

Am I the only one here who watches "Deconstructed" and finds numerous factual errors in each and every episode? I'll bet not!

Nerds, nerds, nerds!!!!

--
Jim H.
 
But clearly, one big "tell" has been the much deeper DOF that we
typically see in a video recording versus what might have been seen
in something shot on 35mm film.
The other, at least to my eyes, has always been the 3D, pop-out look of objects in videos (vs. films) due to the sharpening halo (often implemented by analog electronics in the "older" days).

David
 
Why don't you guys start your own forum, or quit your crying. If the
results of one camera review cause you to have these kind of
reactions, then IMHO your lives are pretty shallow.

Get out there and use your cameras.
There are several patient people in these forums who try very hard to separate fact from myth and to keep today's myths from becoming tomorrow's false "common sense," influencing how people perceive products and thus how manufacturers design them. This doesn't even take into account having basic values that prioritize thinking and doing proper research and analysis before publishing results that others may regard as expert-approved fact.

Unfortunately, the crowd dynamics of internet forums is such that such people are typically drowned out, not only by those who argue for the wrong reasons (simply blind brand loyalty) but by posts like yours that put down the concept of education altogether.

David
 
It's always been very amazing to me at how obvious and immediately noticeable video versus film can look, even when you're viewing it on a crummy, small analog TV.

I suspect you're right that some of the analog signal processing that is/was used also has a lot to do with it.

Now, with some sources being HD and others being film and still others being lower resolution analog video, we're treated to a horrible hodge-podge of strange video problems.

It seems to be getting worse instead of better here.

I may end up needing to go to one of the satellite services to get away from what may well be problems with the local broadcasters and the local cable company. They just can't seem to get things right.

--
Jim H.
 
--
Fred

 
Your right David. Sometimes I talk too quickly. If the unhappy 50d owners will give the camera a chance, I'm sure they will be quite satisfied with the outcome.

It takes a while to get the kinks out.

Jim
--
Jim from Cambridge Canada

Canon EOS 30D Sigma 18-200 3.5-6.3 OS Canon Speedlite 430EX
 
This kind of article is what we expect to get from the mass media
these days.

I think there are some good points made in that article, particularly
with respect to the size of the sensors affecting the "look" of the
images we get.

The point about that "video" look is a very valid one.

For many many years, I've always been able to tell immediately, while
watching TV, whether a show was shot on video tape or film.

I think there are a number of visual cues, one of which is the
presence or lack of the need for frame-rate conversion. And then
there's auto exposure and other details.

But clearly, one big "tell" has been the much deeper DOF that we
typically see in a video recording versus what might have been seen
in something shot on 35mm film.

As for the megapixel thing....

I think that overall, the article was correct. For the typical P&S
shooter, anything over about 6 megapixels is probably a waste. Yet
we see P&S cameras showing up with ever increasing numbers of pixels,
and to the untrained masses, that's a big selling point.

Ohh, it's got 14 megapixels, it's got to be a better camera than that
one with only 12 megapixels!

We all know there's a LOT more to it than that, and it's reasonable
for someone to come out and say it.

But the same oversimplification that leads to people thinking that
more pixels is always better can go the other way with people stating
that more pixels is now automatically bad.

As has been seen on this form for the last few weeks, this is NOT a
trivial subject, and even very intelligent and informed people can
end up with different ideas about this. And even a highly-regarded
source such as DPR can find themselves stepping into a deeper swamp
than they anticipated, and even making mistakes when it comes to
evaluating today's amazing cameras.

That article would have needed to be very long to really cover the
pros and cons and to go into the real details of this. And it would
have required some serious research on the part of the writer, too.

That article was not well researched, not balanced, and not extremely
tech-savvy.

Then again, it was not aimed at people who really care about any of
this.

Still, it's disappointing to see people being somewhat mislead by an
oversimplified and poorly researched article.

This forum is full of serious camera nerds. We can't expect the
typical consumer or the typical periodical to put the kind of effort
into this that we feel is necessary or appropriate.

Am I the only one here who watches "Deconstructed" and finds numerous
factual errors in each and every episode? I'll bet not!

Nerds, nerds, nerds!!!!

--
Jim H.
The truth of the matter is, if the article had supported your viewpoint. You would have praised his "fair and balanced" view. Then sung his praises.
--
Respond to rudeness with civility, it really annoys them.

Regards,

JR
 
Matter of fact there are not that many, if at all, unhappy 50D owners I know of but rather many unhappy 50D non-users. Go figure
Your right David. Sometimes I talk too quickly. If the unhappy 50d
owners will give the camera a chance, I'm sure they will be quite
satisfied with the outcome.

It takes a while to get the kinks out.

Jim
--
Jim from Cambridge Canada

Canon EOS 30D Sigma 18-200 3.5-6.3 OS Canon Speedlite 430EX
 
Sean Hannity and Billo the Clown true paragons of unbiased reporting. You lost, deal with it.
 
... and I liked the article. I've been shooting film SLR's since the mid-70's and dSLR's since the 10D was new. and before that a G3. I have always understood the pixel / sensor issue, but have never been able to explain it to anyone in simple terms (my only kind !). I thought the author of the article gave the basics very well for non-nerds, who are a little more camera savvy than the basic p/s shooter, as well as for the latter..

carolyn
--
Ranger a.k.a chammett
http://www.pbase.com/chammett

'elegance is simplicity'
 
The truth of the matter is, if the article had supported your
viewpoint. You would have praised his "fair and balanced" view. Then
sung his praises.
--
How do you arrive at that conclusion? It wasn't a very "civil" thing to say.

Who are you to say what I'd do or say or in some theoretical situation?

I guess, since you know my "viewpoint" so well, I can just leave it to you to speak for me in all future cases.

Thanks. That'll save me a lot of time.

Just be sure to remember to post for me whenever you see anything on here that I'd normally respond to on my own.

Thanks again!

--
Jim H.
 

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