From Pentax: Full Frame Camera in Development!

SpaceDoc said:

If ever one wants to consider those salesperson's words for granted
... just read 'em that way:

• Pentax full format dSLR in 2008 = NO [that's at Photokina, end of

september, in Cologne, Germany]

Click to expand...

It is the K1000D that's coming at Photokina, we already know this. This is the third model that Rice-High is talking about.

SpaceDoc said:

• Pentax full format dSLR in 2009 = YES [that's at PMA in early spring]

Click to expand...

No, Pentax 24x36 earliest at PMA in 2010.
The K1D, APS-C pro leveln at PMA 2009.

Note that K1D has been in development for quite a while now. Pentax representatives has already acknowledged that they are developing a new flagship, a step above the current K-serie. This was what they were already talking about in interviews made fall 2007. Pentax were working on the successors of the K10D and K100D (that become the K20D and K200D) and a new flagship above those - the K1D.

Note that Pentax are planning the development of a 24x36. This wording means that the 24x36 is further away than the K1D, which should be released in prototype form this fall. So, PMA 2010 the earliest for the 24x36. The pro-level APS-C will come earlier.

The timeline we come up with is therefore...

Fall 2008: K1000D.

Spring 2009: K1D, and perhaps the announcement of K30D and K300D (for market release later).
Fall 2009: Market release of the K30D and K300D
Spring 2010: The 24x36 and the K2000D.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

The 24x36 from Pentax is not coming soon.

It will NOT come this year. It is the new low-end K1000D that Pentax will release at the Photokina, and most probably be showing a prototype for the K1D, the APS-C pro level that will ship in spring 2009.
So not a 24x36 from Pentax this year.

It can be released as a prototype mock-up in fall 2009 for the earliest and market release at PMA 2010.

Then what Samsung is doing can be quite different. Samsung and Pentax are not following each other 100%. Samsung released the GX-20 yes, but they haven't released their version of the K200D. Seems like they are following more and more their own path now, and they may very well be releasing a 24x36 earlier than Pentax - I don't know. I don't know about Samsung.
But from Pentax, a 24x36 is still quite some time away.
And it will be made instead of the digital medium format.

APS-C digital has already replaced 24x36 film, and 24x36 digital will replace medium format film. So the 24x36 won't come cheap.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

and relative small numers of pixels.
All this space, it costs nothing but all this backing up.... Necessary evil...
--

Member said:

The difference between genius and LBA is that genius has its
limits.

• Janneman ( adaptation of the Kings quote from Albert Einstein)

Click to expand...

*isteve said:

2010 would be about right. Sadly that will spell the end of dedicated
APS lenses like the 50-135.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say so.
APS-C and 24x36 can and will happily co-exist for many years.
Pentax has invested, and are continuing investment, of APS-C lenses.

I see digital 24x36 as a replacement for film medium format.

While one could use medium format lenses on 24x36 bodies, this did not kill the 24x36 lenses. So I don't see how a future 24x36 lens lineup could kill the APS-C lens lineup.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

Franka,

you should know that posts like this one are bound to be ignored... . ;-)

Franka T.L. said:

Well, reading the original interview in Chinese, I had to say, the
wording used by Pentax means actually " We noted the trend also, and
we are now in the process of statring to plan for the R&D of such
line of products. Still, in the near to short term, we will be
focusing on APS-C sized product. .... "

If you understand Japanese and Chinese, you would understand such
wording do not mean that there is an actual plan or any firm action
to do such product yet. More a prep or feasibility study instead.

--

• Franka -

Click to expand...

--
Andreas

Rupert60 said:

Don't do that again, those Samsung engineers are all ROFLTAO at your
post, and we need them to concentrate on taking more test photos with
their FF prototype.

Click to expand...

Rupert.
the chinese article was about Pentax plans.
Not Samsung.
Pentax and Samsung is not the same.

Rupert60 said:

Shortage of money? Franka, Samsung is bigger than
the entire economy of most nations on earth, do you really think they
can't afford a FF camera?

Click to expand...

Franka was talking about Pentax, not Samsung!

Rupert60 said:

Maybe you don't want them to succeed at
this camera business, but lots of people didn't want them to succeed
at phones, televisions and other electrical devices either, and it
didn't seem to slow them one iota, so I doubt that your skepticism
will bring them to their knees. And BTW, the world is not flat
anymore either.

Click to expand...

Again, Franka was commenting on Pentax not Samsung!

Whatever Samsung are doing, this does not mean that Pentax is doing it and vice versa. Samsung released the GX-20 yes, their adoption of K20D. But Samsung has not released their version of K200D.

Nothing in their deal states that the must make the same camera but under two names. Samsung may very well have a 24x36 sensor in the works and they may very well have advanced plans on a future high-end 24x36 body and they may very well have a prototype 24x36 for testing and they may very well release it this year or next year.

But this does not automatically means that Pentax are cloning this body. Can you accept this?

The GX-20 is a clone of the K20D which was a development of the K10D. Samsung input on the K10D was about 10%. It was 90% Pentax. Now, if Samsung comes out with a 24x36 it may very well be 90% Samsung and only 10% Pentax in it.

And when Pentax comes out with their 24x36, it may very well be 90% Pentax and 10% Samsung in it.

It is pointless for both makers to release the same camera under two different names. Sensor and image processing technology will surely be the same, but with different algorithms (as today). But there's much more to a camera than that.

Sony and Nikon makes cameras with the same chip too, but they are still quite different...

For the pro-market, I think it is indeed very important for Samsung and Pentax to have products with more differencies between them than the consumer bodies has.

I also have my doubts about Samsung releasing their version of the K1D, Pentax pro-level APS-C. It seems to me that Samsung may skip the pro-level APS-C and goes directly to pro-level 24x36 instead.

Pentax and Samsung are co-developing DSLR technologies yes, but they don't have to make the same camera... Same or similar technologies can be used in quite different bodies and they can be made by different factories too.

I do believe that the Samsung 24x36 will be manufactured by Samsung and not Pentax. Samsung factories, not Pentax factories. (Pentax does not have enough resources). The Samsung 24x36 will be a Samsung, not a Pentax clone. A Samsung original product with some co-developed technologies.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

Roland Mabo said:

I do believe that the Samsung 24x36 will be manufactured by Samsung
and not Pentax. Samsung factories, not Pentax factories. (Pentax does
not have enough resources). The Samsung 24x36 will be a Samsung, not
a Pentax clone. A Samsung original product with some co-developed
technologies.

Click to expand...

So if Pentax is developing new AF, exposure and shutter systems then these could theortetically appear in a Samsung 24x36 camera before the K1D hits the market? Interesting. Samsung would need a new mirror box for its camera anyway and I doubt they'd want to use SAFOX VIII if they could help it and be stuck at 3fps and 1/4000 shutter speed. And Pentax is the logical choice for a source of updated components (assuming they'd be ready of course).

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/charleycoleman

Roland Mabo said:

The timeline we come up with is therefore...

Fall 2008: K1000D.
Spring 2009: K1D, and perhaps the announcement of K30D and K300D (for
market release later).
Fall 2009: Market release of the K30D and K300D
Spring 2010: The 24x36 and the K2000D.
--

Click to expand...

I get a kick out of those who take statements about "planning to plan" items as proof that said items will be out shortly...say this fall, or even fall 2009.

Still, I have two interests for next year: the K1D and its features and price; the K30D and its features and price. I'm assuming, possibly wrongly, that both will use the 14MP sensor with swiveling live view, and diverge from that point (no on camera flash for the K1D, for instance, with a heavier, more durable body and a shutter designed for about 250,000 clicks). Bigger buffer? Faster AF? More FPS? Possibility of using two different memory cards?

I'm about spent out for this year, and probably well into next year, but I'm still curious. The 50-135 is due this week, and the Dell 2408FP is due today or tomorrow. I probably won't get any real work done either week.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

Caat said:

So if Pentax is developing new AF, exposure and shutter systems then
these could theortetically appear in a Samsung 24x36 camera before
the K1D hits the market?

Click to expand...

Theoretically yes, but it may very well be so that Samsung develops new AF and exposure systems instead of using those from Pentax, and it may be so that Pentax may use Samsung's AF and exposure system later in a future body.

Caat said:

Interesting. Samsung would need a new mirror
box for its camera anyway and I doubt they'd want to use SAFOX VIII
if they could help it and be stuck at 3fps and 1/4000 shutter speed.

Click to expand...

A Samsung 24x36 would need improved technologies in those areas yes.

Caat said:

And Pentax is the logical choice for a source of updated components
(assuming they'd be ready of course).

Click to expand...

Or Samsung makes their own.

It could very well be so that Samsung will concentrate on speed, and Pentax on image quality (Pentax has already stated that image quality is their prime concern). Meaning that future Samsung bodies will be faster than Pentax = being for sports shooters, and Pentax bodies will have superior image quality = being for the others.

This could be a logical diversification between them.
This way they wouldn't be competing directly with each other.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

Roland Mabo said:

The 24x36 from Pentax is not coming soon.
It will NOT come this year. It is the new low-end K1000D that Pentax
will release at the Photokina, and most probably be showing a
prototype for the K1D, the APS-C pro level that will ship in spring
2009.
So not a 24x36 from Pentax this year.
It can be released as a prototype mock-up in fall 2009 for the
earliest and market release at PMA 2010.

Click to expand...

That would a complete marketing suicide. Nikon can manage to sell the D300, Pentax can't. Pentax answer for a high-end APS camera is the K20D. It offers image quality over speed at an atractive price.

What Pentax need in a flagship model is something that get attention. At a time where all flagship models are about FF, releasing a APS model above the K20D will seal its fate into anonymity.

Roland Mabo said:

Note that K1D has been in development for quite a while now. Pentax
representatives has already acknowledged that they are developing a
new flagship, a step above the current K-serie. This was what they
were already talking about in interviews made fall 2007. Pentax were
working on the successors of the K10D and K100D (that become the K20D
and K200D) and a new flagship above those - the K1D.

Click to expand...

We do not know the spec for this camera. It could be FF?

Roland Mabo said:

Note that Pentax are planning the development of a 24x36. This
wording means that the 24x36 is further away than the K1D, which
should be released in prototype form this fall. So, PMA 2010 the
earliest for the 24x36. The pro-level APS-C will come earlier.

Click to expand...

The wording means absolutely nothing, It is a completely uncomitical comment on a question about FF. What else are they going to say?

Charles Self said:

I get a kick out of those who take statements about "planning to
plan" items as proof that said items will be out shortly...say this
fall, or even fall 2009.

Click to expand...

The only thing they have said is that they are aware of the trend. The rest is speculation on a uncommitical comment.
Remember that Nikon said that they had no plans of FF 6 months before the D3....

Roland Mabo said:

Come on now, the reality is that the market is NOT headed in the
direction towards 24x36. APS-C, 24x36 and medium format can and will
co-exist for many, many years. A 24x36 is not a competition to APS-C.
24x36 will not kill APS-C.

Click to expand...

Heading in that direction doesn't mean that other format will be killed. The high-end is definitely heading towards FF. The D3, D700, D900, A900, D5MkII will all soon be here. The interest of a high-end APS will diminish quickly in this company, as all focus in the high-end, among media and photographers alike is firmly at FF.

Roland Mabo said:

And do note that planning for a 24x36 development is not the same has
having one in development. From the wording, the 24x36 from Pentax
may come in 2010.

Click to expand...

The wording is meaningless. This is not Nostradamus phrophesies or the Bible; it is a comment from someone who doesn't want to say anything. They are not goin to tell you up front when they will release an FF camera.

Roland Mabo said:

Do note that Pentax are still expanding their APS-C business.
More lenses and more bodies.

Click to expand...

Sure. APS is here to stay in the low and mid end for the foreseeable future.

Roland Mabo said:

And we are still waiting for the K1D, which also is a camera in
development.
However, the new K1D flagship is NOT the 24x36. It is a new APS-C
pro-level.

Click to expand...

That is your guess...

Roland Mabo said:

So, basically, Pentax are not planning for a 24x36 to take over APS-C.

Click to expand...

Nobody are...

Voff said:

That would a complete marketing suicide. Nikon can manage to sell the
D300, Pentax can't. Pentax answer for a high-end APS camera is the
K20D. It offers image quality over speed at an atractive price.
What Pentax need in a flagship model is something that get attention.
At a time where all flagship models are about FF, releasing a APS
model above the K20D will seal its fate into anonymity.

Click to expand...

Posts like this makes me wonder why some people are so blinded by their own wishes that can see nothing further. Let me explain why:

1) When K20D was out I saw a lot of whinning: "oh, only 3fps, same AF system, same 1/4000 shutter, well for sure this isn't an upgrade only a sensor change. I would of buy it and payied some more for those but since it hasn't any I won't buy it". Now you can have the oportunity to buy such a camera and with K20D hovering arround 1000 USD body only a price of 1400-1500 USD is feasable.

2) Many people are heavily invested in APS-C lens and maybe wish for a better camera to use all that glass with. Some other could enter the Pentax system because of the fact that they can buy along with medium priced / high quality glass a semi-pro body. Think about weather sealing at a significantly lower price than C or N for example. And even more so think about building a semi pro system with a lower priced body and vastly lower priced quality lens. Yes, we still have holes in the lens range but just wait for the next roadmap and lens release.

3) If FF is the pinnacle of digital photo what about MF then? Why think that if you have no FF camera your system just sucks? I say it's more of a personal complex than any technical related thing.

4) Of course Pentax will not sell the volumes of D300 regardless of their camera qualities because they simply are not Nikon in terms of marketing, brand awareness and market share. But an upper than K20D camera will solve very well two problems: one, will bring K20D's price further down to battle the D90 and 40D and two, will provde an upgrade path for many people (especially) with K10Ds and (less) with K20Ds who want something better.

5) The dual launch in the next half year both on the lower end of the range and in the top will provide for Pentax the best chance to absorb new customers on price and quality/performance.

6) The price of the K1D will be for sure lower than D300 but for someone to buy such a camera means quite often some new lens buy too which will generate more income. More so, Pentax could bundle atractivelly (with some discounts) the new camera with higher end zooms such as DA 17-70 or DA*s and make it a better commercial value than D300 body only.

7) The mentality that Pentax cannot compete with the big guys is what brought us to the under 5% market share. If they want to succede in this they MUST CHANGE THAT and deliever the best cameras they can for the lowest price possible.

8) This higher end camera will be the testing ground for new systems that will find place in the future FF camera too thus sharing R&D costs and increasing the total number produced at lower costs.

9) FF it's not a panaceum it won't stop GW, wars and hunger and will see pretty soon at Sony that it won't help them rise their market share that much either. Our lower end K2000D camera will bring maybe ten times more people into K mount system than Sony's FF into theirs and I don't think than many pros will switch to Sony either.

My 2 cents,
Radu

We all know that the major players in the DSLR camera market are thinking of marketing a FF DSLR soon or later.

Today, Canon and Nikon. Next Sony, Pentax/Samsung, Leica, Olympus, Sigma, .... more?

Something new?

richardplondon said:

Todd Ka said:

So they are actively in the process of developing a plan to develop a
FF camera, so the process of developing a FF camera has begun. How
is that not "in Development"?

Click to expand...

Most governments have actively planned what to do in a major
earthquake. There's a flood plan, asteroid strike plan, virulent
athlete's foot infection plan.

Click to expand...

Absolutely not true. There was no plan to cope of the flood of New Orleans when it happened. There was no acknowledgement that there was even a disaster from the head of the governmental agency dealing with disasters.

richardplondon said:

Despite these horrifying prospects, we are mostly still alive and
many of our toes remain pleasing to the eye and nose. The disaster
plan turns out not to be the beginning of a disaster process.

Click to expand...

Earthquakes and floods are rare, but they do happen. Just look at the floods that affected the Midwestern US this year. What governmental plan prevented the floods? There is no plan that can prevent an earthquake and no plan that can prevent a flood.

richardplondon said:

You plan so that you are ready in case something happens, such as a
decision to proceed. Without knowing what proceeding with a plan
might consist of, you can't even make a decision to proceed. So of
course you need a plan, for every possible turn your business might
take in the foreseeable future.

RP

Click to expand...

It is better to hear that Pentax has a plan for a full frame than to hear that it has no plan for a full frame. If Pentax has no plan, then it would not be good news for Pentax users. It would probably be disastrous for Pentax marketing because we may see people switching to other brands en mass.

Charles Self said:

That is if one assumes "planning for development" ever moves into
actual development. In truth, I'd far rather see a rationally price
645D to add to my APS-C Pentaxes than I would a so-called full frame.

Click to expand...

There is a higher probability for an affordable full frame DSLR than an affordabe 645D. Besides, you must first learn to walk before you learn to run. Samsung has to first master the art of making full frame sensors before attempting to deal with medium format sensors and their huge files.

Medium format cameras are great for macro and landscapes, because they are not as limited by diffraction as smaller sensors. But they are practically useless for wildlife and sports because of their slow frame rates and awkward handling characteristics. A 645D is not a substitute for a full frame.

ropen said:

Posts like this makes me wonder why some people are so blinded by
their own wishes that can see nothing further. Let me explain why:

1) When K20D was out I saw a lot of whinning: "oh, only 3fps, same AF
system, same 1/4000 shutter, well for sure this isn't an upgrade only
a sensor change. I would of buy it and payied some more for those but
since it hasn't any I won't buy it". Now you can have the oportunity
to buy such a camera and with K20D hovering arround 1000 USD body
only a price of 1400-1500 USD is feasable.
2) Many people are heavily invested in APS-C lens and maybe wish for
a better camera to use all that glass with. Some other could enter
the Pentax system because of the fact that they can buy along with
medium priced / high quality glass a semi-pro body. Think about
weather sealing at a significantly lower price than C or N for
example. And even more so think about building a semi pro system with
a lower priced body and vastly lower priced quality lens. Yes, we
still have holes in the lens range but just wait for the next roadmap
and lens release.

Click to expand...

I agree with the above but that is best done for the K20D replacement; the K30D. Making a fast K20D along with the K20D will just erode both cameras sales. Thats something Pentax can't afford. Their current problem marketingwise, is that the K200D and K20D are too close top each other. The least they need is another 14,6mp camera unless it is dirt cheap. The need space between the model. Besides, theres no room for a five model line-up Pentax K-mount system. That will be spreading the resources too thinly. Note that majority of Pentax users bought into Pentax nowadays because it was cheap: not because it was identical to a Nikon body.

ropen said:

3) If FF is the pinnacle of digital photo what about MF then? Why
think that if you have no FF camera your system just sucks? I say
it's more of a personal complex than any technical related thing.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone have said FF is the pinnacle of digital so I don't know why you bring it up. Les just agree that APS is certainlky not the pinnacle of anything. Therefore Pentax pinnacle should be in larger formats. Which is in tune with their heritage.

ropen said:

4) Of course Pentax will not sell the volumes of D300 regardless of
their camera qualities because they simply are not Nikon in terms of
marketing, brand awareness and market share. But an upper than K20D
camera will solve very well two problems: one, will bring K20D's
price further down to battle the D90 and 40D and two, will provde an
upgrade path for many people (especially) with K10Ds and (less) with
K20Ds who want something better.

Click to expand...

It will not bring the K20D further down. The Pentax sales are sluggish already and lowering the price further mean losses. The last Pentax need is a higher end model with slow sales, that in addition erode sales of other models, and have zero marketing value. Pentax need a top model that has maximum advertising and status value. Pentax need to be seen as a player and to do that nowadays means FF (or MF digital or preferable both)

ropen said:

5) The dual launch in the next half year both on the lower end of the
range and in the top will provide for Pentax the best chance to
absorb new customers on price and quality/performance.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, but one of them needs to be FF....

ropen said:

7) The mentality that Pentax cannot compete with the big guys is what
brought us to the under 5% market share. If they want to succede in
this they MUST CHANGE THAT and deliever the best cameras they can for
the lowest price possible.

Click to expand...

True, but all the competition goes FF these days and Pentax needs to do that too.

ropen said:

8) This higher end camera will be the testing ground for new systems
that will find place in the future FF camera too thus sharing R&D
costs and increasing the total number produced at lower costs.

Click to expand...

Why not the other way around? An FF camera that can provides elements for the K20D replacement late next year?

justin23 said:

Have to agree. a FF dSLR would make very little money for Pentax.

Click to expand...

I disagree. FF DSLR cameras have higher profit margins than APS-C DSLR cameras.

justin23 said:

A
medium format camera however would win the market share and provide
even better IQ than FF. then canon and nikon would be playing catchup.

Click to expand...

Medium format is dominated by Hasselblad, Mamiya and Phase One digital backs. Resolution is now up to around 50-60mp. Pentax would need to compete against these guys, not Nikon or Canon with its first medium format camera. There is no assurance that a 645D would sell, even if it is lower in price than the market leaders.

justin23 said:

The only issue with the MF digital is to get it in at a cheap price
IMO below $5k initially. now if that mean using a Samsung FF sensor
to start in the first body then getting them to make a samsung MF
sensor later I'd be happy.

Click to expand...

Even if it is $5K, it is still out of the reach of a vast majority of photographers. Personally I would much rather buy a full frame for less than $2,000 than to buy a medium format DSLR even if it is "only" $5K.

Anastigmat said:

There is a higher probability for an affordable full frame DSLR than
an affordabe 645D. Besides, you must first learn to walk before you
learn to run. Samsung has to first master the art of making full
frame sensors before attempting to deal with medium format sensors
and their huge files.

Click to expand...

The FF cameras are already affordable. THe Nikon D700 is affordable and it is not housed in a cheap body. The price is the same as for the first mass market amateus Canon DSLR that sold in shiploads.

With todays low dollar, $3000 is peanuts. Besides, consumers are willing to pay a lot more for digital camera gadgets...

Anastigmat said:

Medium format cameras are great for macro and landscapes, because
they are not as limited by diffraction as smaller sensors. But they
are practically useless for wildlife and sports because of their slow
frame rates and awkward handling characteristics. A 645D is not a
substitute for a full frame.

Click to expand...

I agree that MF digital is no substitute for FF, but Anbdy Rouse used Pentax 645NII for wildlife and praised its AF system and metering; the latter better than on any Canon according to his book...