Linux users - dpreview's lost tribe

newmikey said:

But I am aiming for tomorrow. I expect software to become truly platform independent. What use would it be to search for information on a certain RAW converter across three(or more) forums?

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newmikey said:

Is that too futuristic to ask for? Should we see a future OS with the versatility of Windows, the sturdiness and safety features of Linux and the slick interface of OSX? Why in heavens name not? Why are we pushed into this "my OS is bigger than yours" thing? Who benefits from that? Certainly not this community of photography professionals and hobbyists!

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Let's deal with today first. Linux is here right now. Asking Phil to modify dpreview on what "might" happen to technology isn't going to get very far. People genuinely use the Mac and PC Talk forums. Based on the 1000s of Linux posts already on this site, I have every expectation they'd use a Linux forum too.

Your criticims all centre around cutting the options for people to discuss issues by restricting forums. My suggestion is to add choice. Linux itself has always been about increasing choice. If people like the forums they will use them, if they don't they won't. But you want to dictate that choice up front, not only for Linux users, but also Mac and Windows users.

egrivel said:

I use Linux exclusively at home, but if I have Linux questions, dpreview wouldn't be my first place to go.

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Isn't that revealing? dpreview is not the first place to go for linux photography issues, and my contention is that the lack of a forum for linux is the reason for this.

http://linuxphoto.org/software.html

http://wiki.osphoto.org/index.php/The_big_picture

iksomodo said:

May I ask some Linux questions already of the assembled experts here?

(1) My 9-year-old son is about to open a new XO laptop. He hasn't
been pushing us about it because it isn't an Apple. He has some
curiosity about how to manipulate and display photos. I don't know
anything about Linux yet. What software should we try for
manipulating photos?

(2) Just in case I were to start wanting to use Linux too . . . what
Linux-based programs are recommended for opening and manipulating RAW
files, specifically Pentax PEF files?

(3) Back to that craving for apples, why are Macs supposed to be
better than Windows machines for anything involving visual or
auditory representation? (Imagine an art department with only Windows
PCs.) Is it the machines, the operating systems, or something else?
Where can Linux fit into the picture? A good alternative to the Macs,
or a good alternative to the second choice?

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Karl Piers said:

newmikey said:

With 3 different boards ("PC", MacOSX and Linux) the same questions
would have to be answered over and over again. It is time we, as
users, evolve and leave the OS as a defining factor behind us as
simply a matter of taste. We should not have to be concerned about
the OS, just about our chosen tools of the trade.

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This from someone running forums himself for "PCLinuxOS Digital
Photography Edition". To be consistent you should close down your
site, and go join a Windows/Mac group somewhere.

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Quite the opposite: I am waiting for them to join me ;-)

I do not think I expressed myself clearly until now: It is perfectly OK to have a PC forum, a Mac forum, a Dell forum and an HP forum..............just not on Dpreview because of the simple fact the software is not the main thing on this site and the fact it is but a means to an end.

Misconstrue that if you will. Honestly? Once KDE runs on Windows as well, you will most definitely see cross-platform forums on that as well.

--
http://www.pbase.com/newmikey
PCLinuxOS Digital Photography Edition
http://www.dfpe.pclinuxos.nl/

--
http://www.pbase.com/newmikey
PCLinuxOS Digital Photography Edition
http://www.dfpe.pclinuxos.nl/

iksomodo said:

May I ask some Linux questions already of the assembled experts here?

(1) My 9-year-old son is about to open a new XO laptop. He hasn't
been pushing us about it because it isn't an Apple. He has some
curiosity about how to manipulate and display photos. I don't know
anything about Linux yet. What software should we try for
manipulating photos?

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To my (unprofessional) eye, there is only one contender for the throne here: Digikam (www.digikam.org)

iksomodo said:

(2) Just in case I were to start wanting to use Linux too . . . what
Linux-based programs are recommended for opening and manipulating RAW
files, specifically Pentax PEF files?

Click to expand...

I am a K100DS user myself and I use RawTherapee, but mostly UFraw (and its batchmode)

iksomodo said:

(3) Back to that craving for apples, why are Macs supposed to be
better than Windows machines for anything involving visual or
auditory representation? (Imagine an art department with only Windows
PCs.) Is it the machines, the operating systems, or something else?
Where can Linux fit into the picture? A good alternative to the Macs,
or a good alternative to the second choice?

Click to expand...

To both.

--
http://www.pbase.com/newmikey
PCLinuxOS Digital Photography Edition
http://www.dfpe.pclinuxos.nl/

newmikey said:

iksomodo said:

May I ask some Linux questions already of the assembled experts here?

(1) My 9-year-old son is about to open a new XO laptop. He hasn't
been pushing us about it because it isn't an Apple. He has some
curiosity about how to manipulate and display photos. I don't know
anything about Linux yet. What software should we try for
manipulating photos?

Click to expand...

To my (unprofessional) eye, there is only one contender for the
throne here: Digikam (www.digikam.org)

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Digikam is probably a good choice for common manipulation tasks. For the more feature-hungry people Gimp and Krita are probably worth a look as well.

newmikey said:

newmikey said:

(2) Just in case I were to start wanting to use Linux too . . . what
Linux-based programs are recommended for opening and manipulating RAW
files, specifically Pentax PEF files?

Click to expand...

I am a K100DS user myself and I use RawTherapee, but mostly UFraw
(and its batchmode)

Click to expand...

Both of these are OK, and if commercial software is not an issue, there is also Bibble / Bibble Pro, which I mostly use today for my own RAW conversion needs. The Linux version seems to have some stability issues on some configurations, but it's not been overwhelmingly annoying to me. It seems to support a good number of Pentax cameras as well.

I understood "manipulate" as "organize" which is why I suggested Digikam. Although ShowPhoto, Digikam's image editor is reasonably capable and extendable with Kipi plugins, it is not really a full pixel-based image editor.

I agree with you that for that, Gimp is excellent. Let's not forget Cinepaint and Krita for 16-bit work. Gimp 2.6 will do 16-bit as well.

I did try both Bibble and Lightzone, but never got comfortable with either. I suppose I want my RAW converter to convert RAW and my image editor to edit image. The newer RAW programs are a cross between a converter and an editor.

--
http://www.pbase.com/newmikey
PCLinuxOS Digital Photography Edition
http://www.dfpe.pclinuxos.nl/

We need a Linux Talk forum.

--
Alien

It could be interesting. I use Linux on my laptops (one at work and one at home). However, at the moment my photography work is carried out on my windows desktop.

I do try to find and read the Linux posts so that if/when I change exclusively to Linux I will have a bit of a head start. At the moment the only manipulation I do using Linux is when I am away on trips with the laptop.

newmikey said:

It is perfectly OK to have a PC forum, a Mac forum, a Dell forum and an HP forum..............just not on Dpreview because of the simple fact the software is not the main thing on this site and the fact it is but a means to an end.

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dpreview deals with both stages of photography, as is clear from its range of forums. Now you want to redesign this site to focus merely on cameras.

newmikey said:

Karl, we need to agree to disagree

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The problem is, you disgree with yourself, as your site proves.

Recommending s/w that isn't actually available, isn't very helpful. If you want to do 16-bit image manipulation, cinepaint is the best option.

newmikey said:

I agree with you that for that, Gimp is excellent. Let's not forget
Cinepaint and Krita for 16-bit work. Gimp 2.6 will do 16-bit as well.

Click to expand...

Karl Piers said:

Recommending s/w that isn't actually available, isn't very helpful.
If you want to do 16-bit image manipulation, cinepaint is the best
option.

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Have you made it your business to nag me Karl? I did write "will do" as in "future plans"...

--
http://www.pbase.com/newmikey
PCLinuxOS Digital Photography Edition
http://www.dfpe.pclinuxos.nl/

LeRentier said:

Your statement is correct provided everyone runs a double boot
environment but this is not the case for everyone.

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No need for Windows and double boot. I don't have one and I run trial versions of Photoshop CS and CS2 without problems under WINE.

--

http://magnesus.blogspot.com - visit my photoblog, s6000fd, bugs, flowers and vistas

Karl Piers said:

egrivel said:

I use Linux exclusively at home, but if I have Linux questions,
dpreview wouldn't be my first place to go.

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Isn't that revealing? dpreview is not the first place to go for linux
photography issues, and my contention is that the lack of a forum for
linux is the reason for this.

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I wouldn't turn to dpreview for Windows questions either. I'd look at a Microsoft site, or do a Google search. My answer was about my impression that dpreview is a photography site, not an operating system site. Please don't mis-understand my comment.

Thanks,
Eric
--
http://www.lumenssolutions.com/photography/

newmikey said:

With 3 different boards ("PC", MacOSX and Linux) the same questions
would have to be answered over and over again. It is time we, as
users, evolve and leave the OS as a defining factor behind us as
simply a matter of taste. We should not have to be concerned about
the OS, just about our chosen tools of the trade.

Click to expand...

[...]

newmikey said:

Now thàt would be a clear signal that we expect software makers to
cater to our needs instead of vice versa.

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You're free to think all of this. However, you should understand that this is your own ideology, nothing more. In effect, you want there to be no Linux forum for your own gains.

Most of the people requesting a Linux forum (including me) want it to get solutions to practical problems. It doesn't help us at all that you want software to be the same on all platforms simply because it isn't. What you want from the future doesn't help us others in the now.

Once again, it's fine for you to have these opinions. However, please don't force them on others.
--
http://flickr.com/photos/iskender

Iskender said:

You're free to think all of this. However, you should understand that
this is your own ideology, nothing more. In effect, you want there to
be no Linux forum for your own gains.

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Eh, run that by me again? My own what? I don't do commercial Linux support, already have a daytime job in supply chain management, thank you very much. PCLinuxOS is a volunteer effort from beginning to end, on the .NL site we neither solicit donations or payments nor accept them, but direct people to donate over at Texstar's site in the US. I am not even that active on the support forum nowadays, I dedicate time to the photography remaster of PCLOS.

I simply do not believe there to be a raison d'etre for a Linux forum on Dpreview. You seem to conveniently forget that I have the same opinion on the PC and Mac forums as well. I believe a single software and hardware forum would be more productive. You can disagree, in fact we can agree to disagree, but you are taking this up a few notches aren't you?

Iskender said:

Most of the people requesting a Linux forum (including me) want it to
get solutions to practical problems. It doesn't help us at all that
you want software to be the same on all platforms simply because it
isn't. What you want from the future doesn't help us others in the
now.

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I don't get it: if you are on Linux, you know that most software that you are running already IS cross platform or will be very soon: KDE4, Digikam, Cinepaint, Gimp, OpenOffice, Firefox, UFRaw, RawTherapee, Bibble, LightZone etc. If you think this through carefully, it is therefore in our interest to not have a Linux forum. It's the Windows users that are locked in with no place to go.

Iskender said:

Once again, it's fine for you to have these opinions. However, please
don't force them on others.

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Iskender, with all the respect I have for you: where in heaven's name am I "forcing"my views on others? Was the purpose of the original question "should we have a Linux forum on DPR?" to attract only those who agree or was it an invitation to an open exchange of views?

I answered: "no we shouldn't", everybody else is free to answer whatever the hell he or she darn well pleases.

--
http://www.pbase.com/newmikey
PCLinuxOS Digital Photography Edition
http://www.dfpe.pclinuxos.nl/

You're very funny.

Your statement "once you have solved the issue" applies to just about anything and you might add that "clearly describing the problem" is already half the solution, without forgetting "if people were just a little smarter they wouldn't ask stupid questions".

I tried wine to get my photoshop elements 5.0 running under linux but I haven't found the solution yet, possibly because I believed an expert of your caliber who proclaimed that you can only make a windows application work via wine if it was properly installed on a windows partition. I need to put this back on the workbench I suppose.

Anyway, most of use here are talking about what we would like to have NOW and we do not speculate on what the future might bring in a perfect world.

JohnnyWB said:

There is however an enormous amount of Linux related info available on the net,
no need for a linux section on dpreview imo, unless it is photography related.

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As there is a n enormous amount of Windows- and Mac-related info available on the net, so is there a need for such forums on dpreview?

BIJ001 said:

BIJ001 said:

There is however an enormous amount of Linux related info available on the net,
no need for a linux section on dpreview imo, unless it is photography related.

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As there is a n enormous amount of Windows- and Mac-related info
available on the net, so is there a need for such forums on dpreview?

Click to expand...

IMO no,not really, unless it is photography related.

But this is just my opinion, some/many others may find they have great benefit from the PC,Mac, and perhaps future Linux forum sections. I have no problem with that.

JohnnyWB
--
pleeze ignore ze typo's