D3 X Just cant wait.....

Aren't lpi and ppi different? I thought you needed at least two pixels to draw a line, and thus 175 lpi would require 350ppi. Now, whether the paper/printing process will actually hold that detail in some of the magazines could rightly be questioned, as could whether the difference is meaningful to viewers, but I think the math still requires 2x pixels per "l".
  • Marshall
 
Its simple mathematics ...... 12mp just doesnt sum up to a double
page ; )
Funny. Outside magazine just ran a double truck image that was taken by a Canon G9. I suspect most people reading the magazine didn't even notice that. Sports Illustrated was running double trucks from 2.7 and 3mp cameras intermixed with film scans back as early as 2001 and no one noticed.

While more pixels can be a good thing and some magazine photo editors are still pixel counters, the educated amongst them actually look at the image quality.

--
Thom Hogan
editor, Nikon DSLR Report

author, Complete Guides: D40/D40x, D50, D70s, D80, D100, D200, D1 series, D2 series
http://www.bythom.com
 
I think all of this is symptomatic of the fundamental break down in communication between photographer and art director that started in the mid 1980's with Stock Photos, Art Buyers, Fed-Ex, bike messengers, fax machines, unreal work loads and isolation. It later escalated with the ability to e-mail photos, and inflation.

Stock Photos caused many people in advertising to view photography not as a creative medium but as a commodity. It killed imagination. Whereas art directors often came from art backgrounds and had the ability to draw and employ graphic design; many of today's Art Directors design by swipe -- namely they find stock images, add type, and voila an ad is born. The problem is that these ad comps are shown to non-creatives who immediately become slaves to the comp, they can't imagine the ad looking different or better. Plus, now that the comp is approved everyone in the chain-of-command involved with producing this ad is too scared to deviate from the comp lest it anger the client. At this point the photographer becomes a technician and not a real artist. Their is no longer a place for magic or inspiration. Of course in this setting the photographer will not be respected or valued and will therefore have a great uphill battle with regards to making suggestions to improve the photography. The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened.

Art Buyers put a barrier between Art Directors and photographers. These Art Buyers are self-appointed experts that often have a background in subjects like art history. What they generally all have in common is that they've never been an Art Director or a Photographer. Therefore, when an Art Director needs a photographer, why is the non-creative suit Art Buyer making strong suggestions regarding which photographer is suitable? And why are so many Art Directors too lazy to perform the part of their jobs involving staying current with photographers. I've had Art Buyers tell me they could get the photos produced more cheaply in another country, even though for logistical reasons it needed to be done locally. Most Art Buyers treat photographers condescendingly, and I've never seen someone produce their best work in this atmosphere. The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened.

Fed-Ex & Bike Messengers, really took off in the mid 1980's and the consequence for photographers was that Art Directors and clients decided they no longer needed to attend many shoots -- still-life in particular. The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened.

Fax Machines encouraged many lazy Art Directors to art direct from the comfort of their offices. Rather than collaborate with a photographer they choose to dictate to a photographer. Faxing fuzzy polaroid prints to Art Directors, and then waiting long periods of time was not an ideal way to work or interact: The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened.

Unreal Work Loads: I'm sure we're all aware of the massive layoffs that have befallen every company. Art Directors are doing the work that used to be done by three employees. They're not adequately compensated and have very little job security. If the ad agency loses the account they lose their jobs. As a result Art Directors avoid leaving their offices to attend photo shoots. The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened.

Isolation: Over-burdening Art Directors and appointing Art Buyers as their effective superiors has led to isolation. The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened. Art Directors and Art Buyers can be very arrogant. This wasn't always the case. And it's sad, because it was truly great, back in the day, to see how well photographers and Art Directors worked together and how photos benefited from their collaboration.

E-mailing photos, ftp'ing photos, and Internet photo galleries all combined to enable the creation of long-distance art directing. The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened.

continued below on next post:
Dan - I've done a couple shoots with rented digital backs and I was
awed and thrilled by the results. (Personal work.) OMG, I can only
wish I had clients who valued that image quality enough to pay for it!
Art directors have always wanted more for less, but since film
technologies had been stable for 20 years or so, there was less
screwy price pressure. Somehow there's this whole notion of "digital
is cheaper" and "more pixels just means add a few megabytes"...
Absurd.
Nikon D3, Nikon D300, Nikon Lenses 10.5, 14-24, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 VR, 60 2.8 AF-S Micro, 85 1.4 Other brands: Zeiss 50 1.4, Nikon TC-17E II 1.7x,Three SB800's, Canon G-9 & Underwater housing, Two Quantum 5d-r's, & More.
 
Inflation: In 1982 I could rent a NYC photo studio for $600 per month, today the same studio rents for $3,000 per month. A complete 4x5 outfit could be bought for $1,500. Today, a digital outfit capable of the same quality is over $40,000. Prices paid photographers had not kept up, photographers don't receive any of the health or retirement benefits enjoyed by those at ad agencies, and on top of all this there are more photographers and less work to go around. Therefore, how are photographer's supposed to afford the equipment, most of which is obsolete in two years? The result: The relationship and respect for photographer's contributions was weakened.

All of the above brings us back to the topic of greater mega pixels. At this point in time the relationship between photographers and Art Directors has deteriorated to the point that the photographer's advice with respect to which camera equipment is best suited to creating a specific photograph will be ignored. And even if the photographer wanted to use certain equipment, the Art Director or Art Buyer would override the photographer based on their so-called superior knowledge or because they don't want to spend the money. The sad part to all this, is that the photographer will be judged unfairly. I mean how can the photographer's advertising work be judged fairly when he/she isn't able to use the equipment best suited to the assignment, and if the Art Director isn't viewing the photographer as a collaborator?

As if all this wasn't bad enough please consider the following: Yesterday's art director served as an assistant art director for many years. Today's art director is frequently one year out of college. Yesterday's art director knew how to draw, kern type, and more. Today's art director uses stock photos to create ad comps. Yesterday's art director supervised and attended at least 100 photo shoots per year. Today's art director is lucky to attend 4 photo shoots per year and spends most of their time working on creating speculative comps to pitch accounts the agency doesn't have. Now some may think I've got an ax to grind on this topic, and there might be a modicum of truth to that. However, if you're lucky enough to work with one of the few remaining so-called old school Art Directors you will see what a wonderful experience it can be to create photos in an atmosphere of true collaboration.

Well, there's my Monday morning rant. Of course there's a lot of subjectivity at work here. However, I think some of these points merit further discussion.
--

Nikon D3, Nikon D300, Nikon Lenses 10.5, 14-24, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 VR, 60 2.8 AF-S Micro, 85 1.4 Other brands: Zeiss 50 1.4, Nikon TC-17E II 1.7x,Three SB800's, Canon G-9 & Underwater housing, Two Quantum 5d-r's, & More.
 
Maybe I should have been more precise ....
it does not sum up to physical 300dpi (ppi) !

and this whole thread impliments a certain question too(what do you think is necessarry and why 24MP) !

VERY INTERESTING what you guys say as apart from
photography I do 3d too. so this .....there.... is a question of rendering
in 6 hours or rendering in 5 days (or even at all !)

Peter
 
Absolutely aggree.... I spent ages trying to ignore what my own eyes told me

my 35mm digital made better large prints than medium format film. I shoot for a uk charity in Africa and was amazed when the digital 35mm( fuji s2 at the time)

were printed 1.5 meters tall . They were smoother and better than the 100 asa transparency portraits as they had no inherent film structure.

I use D2X's now and although I've hired medium format out and am looking
at the D3 but honestly I get more than i need now and have to convince myself
that its needed.
 
Not me Thom.

If by chance I were the editor of Sports Illustrated
and the chick was a drop-dead gorgeous blonde
wearing nothing but a couple of strings -

I'd say, "Slap her on the cover & go with it!"

And if they turned around to say, "But sir, it looks soooo pixelated!"

I'd then say, "Doesn't matter. Just Go With It!"

:-)
marc
 
dude you can make more money in comedy than in photography
--
Ben
Design is all I do.
bibikova.com
 
Sigh!!! I think the art directors are mainly looking at pixel or "camera" quality, not photographer quality anymore!
 
"The eyes of the reader don't matter to a photographer as much as the eyes and biases of the people who pay the photographers."

This is a very good response and actual fact to the basic matter of it all. But architectural spreads fall way short of making up the bulk of 2 page photos used. Nat'l Geo has made several 2 page spreads using the D2X. Just to name one.

The real fact of the matter is nicely explained "again" by you a few threads below here in that the continual talk about more and more megapixles has now created a false belief that more and more is actually needed. Consumers fell hopelessly into this right out of the gate and understandably so. Manufacturers have always been able to sway the masses in this manner and they have to just love what they see with the 6, vs 8, vs 10, now vs 12 megapixel digicams. But unfortunately the professional photographers (especially tech people), have almost equally bought into this type of thinking, "even knowing" that you cannot tell the difference between, say a 10 megapixerl image vs a 12 megapixel image when looking at the printed 8 X 10 or 11 X 14 or 16X 20 photo. This is of course taken and exposed properly. In fact, the difference cannot be discerned between a 5.4 megapixel D1X and a 10 megapixel D200 up to 11 X 14 size when taken, exposed properly and then printed. 200% on monitors isn't real world for selling images and should serve us primarily as a post processing tool.

I don't think we need to stop buying the fine equipment being provided to us. But I certainly think we need to get a grip on the reality of megapixels not being the sole or even major driving force behind obtaining a good image capture. Far too many other components in the overall photo capture engine.

--
Mel
http://www.mellockhartphotography.zenfolio.com
http://www.mellockhartphotography.com
 
hearing me... it seems you have made up your mind and are not willing to open your mind to more data.

The image data is strictly the pixel dimensions of the file... period. No other way around it.

Now, changing dpi or ppi has NOTHING to do with the pixel dimensions... it is simply a RELATIOSHIP. I am sure you know this.

So, if you say 24x36 at 200ppi it is the exact same thing if you print 40x50 @ 100ppi... same quality and no interpolation needed. It all depends on the medium you;re printing to.

On Line, you can have a file that has 1 dpi or 1,000,000 dpi, regardless, your browser will display it the same way. It only matters in print.

So, if you tell me your printer will print at 500ppi, then yes, you better get yourself more linear data in your image files, no way around it. If instead you will be going down from your native resolution (in the D2Xs it is 12MP at around 275 to 300dpi) you have plenty of data to make full reproductions.

Better yet, what do you get from your print tests so far?

--
Manny
http://www.pbase.com/gonzalu/
http://www.mannyphoto.com/
FCAS Member - http://fcasmembers.com/
 
I dont know what this example should tell us because
I´m always at 300 dpi and double A4 or A3 what you call it.
A camera with 24 MP real resolution just gives you more
real data ( information) then any 12 MP that is enlarged
and extrapolated to the double size !
The point is you dont see any pixelation you just dont
see the image data !
They just have more punch !
that is if the lenses are good enough !
Peter
 
The rule of thumb for images going to offset printing is 2X the resolution of the halftone (line) screen. 300 ppi covers the most commonly used magazine and brochure printing line screens, but it's a brainless spec since it only relates to the number of pixels you need to avoid aliasing artifacts.

In fact, you can resample photos signficantly and get excellent, highly detailed offset reproduction. The problem is there are folks in the industry who only know the rule of thumb and who wield it without any understanding.

--
BJN
 
Gah, I've printed A4 images from my D1H [2.7MP] and they didn't exhibit any image issues. So a 12MP camera [e.g. the D3] would appear to be enough to print to A2, especially since the newer crop of dSLRs have even better sensors.

And yes, if fashion houses need more MPs, they can get medium format digitals to do the job - 37MP? No problem - who needs a Canon 1DsIII or the vapourware D3X?

~ morozhenoye ~
 
While my personal sample size of art directors and publications is smaller than that of someone who goes at this full time, I've noticed that a lot of the editors who are pixel-fascists tend to not have much background or experience in photography. Also seem to be less sure of themselves, hence, perhaps, the desire to have lots of pixels to crop away. In the absence of technical experience and knowledge, they grasp on to simple rules of thumb.
While more pixels can be a good thing and some magazine photo editors
are still pixel counters, the educated amongst them actually look at
the image quality.

--
Thom Hogan
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D40/D40x, D50, D70s, D80, D100, D200, D1
series, D2 series
http://www.bythom.com
 
Sigh!!! I think the art directors are mainly looking at pixel or
"camera" quality, not photographer quality anymore!
In defense of photo editors, such requirements generally weed out a lot of people who think they're ready for publication but aren't. It's an easy way to say "go away." I'm pretty sure if Art Wolfe handed a photo editor a 4mp file they would look at it critically before rejecting it.

--
Thom Hogan
editor, Nikon DSLR Report

author, Complete Guides: D40/D40x, D50, D70s, D80, D100, D200, D1 series, D2 series
http://www.bythom.com
 
Maybe I should have been more precise ....
it does not sum up to physical 300dpi (ppi) !
And magazines don't print at 300 dpi. Magazines use line screens of various values, typically in the 133 lpi realm.

One of the things that's at issue is this: most magazines were doing slide scans at 300 dpi and established a workflow that supported getting excellent quality from that to printed page. Indeed at Rodale we not only had such a workflow, but we actually locked files given to the printer. Put another way, we had calibrated the press used with both the paper and inks we used, built a profile for that, then soft-proofed against that profile on our equipment. When we got what we wanted, we locked the file so that the printer couldn't alter it in any way and then monitored test patches coming off the press early in the run. If the colors of those patches were right, the images were right. If the patches were wrong, we had them stop the press and find out what was wrong (drums not cleaned, previous inks not fully flushed, etc.).

My point is that magazines got into a rut and many tried to just use the same formula for digital images (e.g. if the photographer gives us a 300 dpi original, that's the same as a 300 dpi slide scan). That's not true, actually. Slide scans have to be noise reduced, digital images can come in with too much sharpening already in them. The smart mags have adapted and aren't quite so restrictive on input. A 240 dpi original should work quite well for a high quality magazine at double truck if managed right. Perhaps even lower. And not all images are used at full rez, either. There was another interesting thing I caught my photo editor doing once: buying 300 dpi images that were going to be used at less than quarter page size. Why reject something less than 300 dpi for that? After all, even at 300 dpi you'd only need 1200 pixels on the short axis. But habits are hard to break.
and this whole thread impliments a certain question too(what do you
think is necessarry and why 24MP) !
Well, for me it's a different story. I do very little for publication shooting these days (isn't a lot of money in it unless you can make it up in volume ; ). Personally, I think I'd rather shoot stitched shots with the D3 than non-stitched shots with the D3x (assuming that the D3x is approximately equivalent pixel-wise to the D300, as we all expect it to be). But I won't know that until such a camera actually gets into my hands.

--
Thom Hogan
editor, Nikon DSLR Report

author, Complete Guides: D40/D40x, D50, D70s, D80, D100, D200, D1 series, D2 series
http://www.bythom.com
 
One of my vendors approved camera list has only one Canon camera on it, and NO Nikons on it at this time.
There are vendors out there who(m) will only take files from the very best.
They also pay a tall premium.
D3X, I would hope, will make this list.
Two page spreads with bleed at minimum 300 dpi.

Nikon seems to have done it's home work on high resolving lenses, and now the camera bodies are following ...

--


http://mattanderson.zenfolio.com/
 
Personally, I think I'd rather shoot stitched shots with the D3 than non-stitched shots with the D3x (assuming that the D3x is approximately equivalent pixel-wise to the D300, as we all expect it to be). But I won't know that until such a camera actually gets into my hands.
I was thinking along the same lines (for nature work) thanks for sharing the thought...

Good stitching of course means I have to carry longer (heavier) lenses ...not to mention more time in processing, but... on the other hand, I won't need to buy expensive new nano-coated lenses, plus I keep the high ISO advantage of the D3... If it is significant...

As you say, we need to see how exactly they implement 24.4MP in the D3x but if they do it the way we think they will, then the D3 may indeed be the best choice for me

--
John
http://www.JChristopherGalleries.com
 

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