Canon vs. Nikon ergonomics

jbssm said:

When Canon builds a camera, they intentfull cripple the camera just
to try and raise an artificial difference between their products.

Everybody remembers the 300D (the one I'm more accustomed to and
know better) and the fact that Canon crippled it's software so that
it didn't compete with the sale of the 10D, although in fact the
300D could do a bit more (flash exposure compensation, other focus
modes, MLU ...) for a 0$ cost to Canon in the production and R&D
development of the unit.
I believe there are similar issues with the 5D vs the 1D.

To me this is a very bad thing, it's what corporations do when they
think they got the monopoly and they can just push the costumer
around cause we will not have the courage to go and buy another
brand.

Click to expand...

Here we go again with the "crippled camera by intentional design" argument.

The original Rebel was introduced to get a sub-$1000 DSLR on the market for those people who wanted one but didn't want to spend the $1500 for a 10D. Almost instantly the cheapskates of the world bought up Rebels and commenced to whining and b* hing about why Canon had "crippled" the camera just to make money. Make money how? If you wanted/needed the extra abililties of the 10D series, then you were free to buy one, but if price was your main concern, or perhaps you simply weren't advanced enough in photography to be able to utilize the extra features of the more expensive camera then the Rebel was an excellent choice.

I see the 5D as a similar product. The 1Ds series cameras are out of the price range of just about everyone except the working pro who can justify $8000 for a camera body. They are simply the top of the Canon line in resolution and durability. I believe Canon saw a potential market for a full-frame sensor camera in a more affordable price range and the 5D was born. However, the 5D appears to be more of a prosumer model than the entry-level Rebel series. And from the impressions I've gotten from several working pros, they have made quite a darn good camera.

So, Canon has managed to bring a FF sensor digital camera in a price range that is affordable to a lot more people than the 1Ds series is, and here we go again with the cheapskates of the world crying foul that Canon didn't simply build a 1Ds type camera in the $3000 price range, simply amazing.

"Those greedy Canon b* rds, how dare they.??"

But let a customer try and talk them down on their rates or print prices and you'll most likely hear a whole different tune.............

jbssm said:

Believe me, as soon as Nikon catches with Canon (it it ever does)
in technology (mainly sensor ISO capability and lens image
stabilisation) I will jump wagon even if it means I'll loose some
money.

Click to expand...

Ya, you'll sure show them won't you?

I'll bet it won't be long before you're finding the same faults with Nikon. After all aren't their D50/D70/D100/D200 lines just "crippled" versions of their pro series cameras? If you take your argument about Canon's "crippling" of its products to its logical conclusion with Nikon you'll find the same "conspiracy" there too.

Now what? You're running out of camera manufacturers to pick on......

Oh wait, there's Sony. I'm sure they'll be glad to have you as a customer.

jbssm said:

Everybody remembers the 300D (the one I'm more accustomed to and
know better) and the fact that Canon crippled it's software so that
it didn't compete with the sale of the 10D, although in fact the
300D could do a bit more (flash exposure compensation, other focus
modes, MLU ...) for a 0$ cost to Canon in the production and R&D
development of the unit.

Click to expand...

Well, cannibalizing the sales of another camera is a cost to Canon, so they did what they did to maximize profit; it's called business. Personally, I've never met anyone that after buying a 10D said "Man I really wish I could have just bought the Digital Rebel instead," so I don't really think that Canon needed to do what they did. I suppose Canon could have just bought the same Sony sensor that everyone else used (and continues to use) and slapped it in there so that people could have said, "Wow, the 10D really is a lot better," but they didn't and they produced the first DSLR under $1000.

jbssm said:

To me this is a very bad thing, it's what corporations do when they
think they got the monopoly and they can just push the costumer
around cause we will not have the courage to go and buy another
brand.

Click to expand...

Well, at the time there wasn't an amature DSLR market, and the debate was really out on who was going to be the first company to take advantage of the potential for one. Canon was the first out of the gate followed by Nikon with the D70, a slightly more expensive, but arguably, much nicer camera. So monopoly? I don't think anyone had, or even has today, anything close to a monopoly.

jbssm said:

Believe me, as soon as Nikon catches with Canon (it it ever does)
in technology (mainly sensor ISO capability and lens image
stabilisation) I will jump wagon even if it means I'll loose some
money.

Click to expand...

So is this a moral position that you're taking, or are your images that bad now that you need something "better?"

Dennis_Wood said:

Ya, you'll sure show them won't you?
I'll bet it won't be long before you're finding the same faults
with Nikon. After all aren't their D50/D70/D100/D200 lines just
"crippled" versions of their pro series cameras? If you take
your argument about Canon's "crippling" of its products to its
logical conclusion with Nikon you'll find the same "conspiracy"
there too.

Now what? You're running out of camera manufacturers to pick on......

Oh wait, there's Sony. I'm sure they'll be glad to have you as a
customer.

Click to expand...

Hum, how intelligent and witty of you, do you mind to share with us were in the D50/D70/D100/D200 lines, Nikon crippled the firmware?

Conan said:

Well, cannibalizing the sales of another camera is a cost to Canon,
so they did what they did to maximize profit; it's called business.

Click to expand...

Ahh, so that is why so many American corporation have sweat shops in the third world were children work for them 10 hours a day for 20 cents an hour ... this so called business thing looks interesting ... I'm glad you share your view with us that whatever makes profit for them is perfectly acceptable ... after all, pooor share holders.

Dennis_Wood said:

sorry, but having both a 20D and a pair of 1D2s I much prefer the
easier and quicker to use system of the 1D2.

Click to expand...

When I carry a 1D2n and a 5D, I always pull the card out of the 1D2n and review my shots with the 5D during half time. Not only is it easier to review and delete shots with a one finger interface, it displays and zooms them faster than the 1D2n.

I've found the 1D2n interface more error-prone during chimping because it sometimes takes a second or two to display a shot when you're reviewing in zoom mode. You can accidentally delete a shot that hasn't displayed yet instead of the one you're looking at when you selected delete. I'm surprised this hasn't been fixed.

you must remember Skip some in this forum are "Divine" and are not capable
of such silly mistakes but they are quick to point them out in others

but wait they are also above posting any of there divine work to show us mortals how it is truly done

BTW "Gena" hasn't posted a single picture or even a link to a gallery go figure I guess the old saying is true "those that can't Teach those that can" or something to that affect sorry im only mortal I will make mistakes

Skip M said:

There are occasions that you don't notice these things. I spent
the day yesterday on ISO 800, shooting at f2.8-5.6, and never
noticed the shutter speed. I thought I was still set on ISO200, my
normal setting. I forgot I changed it for a wedding this weekend
and never changed it back. Call it a "senior moment," not
clueless. Having the ISO in the VF all the time, rather than on
call with a button, would have prevented this. Not irreparable,
just irritating.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Click to expand...

It would be nice to have a 40d FF with 6mpix...



--
Cheers,
Ricardo

Better grip, more ergonomic setting of shutter button, control wheels...
--
Cheers,
Ricardo

--
Cheers,
Ricardo

I owned a Nikon D100 before buying the 5D. I thought the Nikon was a little more user friendly mainly because I don't care for the location of what Canon calls the "Main Dial" i.e. the one adjacent to the shutter button, on the 5D. But I've gotten used to it and it isn't a big deal though using it still feels awkward.
--
CampyOne

Qwntm said:

Jim F. said:

but has
anyone used the D200 and a 30d/5d, etc. for an extended period of
time and found the Canon lacking? I've shot Nikon film cameras as
well and never preferred them over Canon either, but I heard that
the D200 was supposed to be a great camera from an ergonomics
perspective.

Any solid evaluations out there? Did I miss something or not give
it enough time?

Click to expand...

Hi Jim,

I shot 20D's in 2005 for about 40 weddings worth and well over
35,000 frames. I switched in December to Nikon and the D200 and
have been shooting Nikon since.

I particulalrly dislike the way Canon has the 3 buttons on top
right, that do 2 different things depending upon which dial you
spin.

I do like the way Nikon has grouped the WB/ISO/IQ on the top left.
Mirror lock up is a definit advantage on the D200. Not only is it
accessible from a dial, but there are about 3 different varients on
ways to lock the mirror/avoid vibration. The bright yellow
histogram is visible in direct sunlight. The SB-800 is intuitive:
you hit the rocker for direct zooming or the other way for FEC -
NICE.

Click to expand...

Can't disagree, there are some very nice things in the Nikon setup. I'm still not a fan of buttons for everything and everywhere though. If I could change a few things on Canon's offerings it would be the things you and I have mentioned, e.g., a MLU button, ISO in VF and an easier way to change it, no direct print button, and a better LCD (I can hardly see my screen in bright light, but since Boston has been like a soggy wet dishrag this summer it hasn't mattered too much.

Qwntm said:

At the end of the day, I have found the D200 to be intuitive, and I
usually just shoot and spin dials and push buttons without having
to think about how to do what I want to do. I can't say that about
the 20D, even after having used it weekly and extensively. That's
why I feel Nikon's ergonomics are better. That and the D200 just
fits my hand like it was made personally for me, I always found the
20D a bit "chunky." There's a long list of other little things I
like better, but their not sprining to mind just right now.

So there's a qualified opinon, but it's just that, MHOP, no offence
to anyone who perfers tha 20D, it's a great camera too....

Click to expand...

I would definitely say that's a qualified opinion. you've used both and can discuss the differences. Probably the most important thing is that it fits your hand. Where I found it too angular and sharp, you find it comfortable and that's what's important.

Thanks, Jim

I'm sure that Canon likes the idea of making $300 more dollars for the grip too.

I consider the 5D to be less comfortable to hold than the Nikon D2X no matter which grip (body or battery) you hold.

The 5D is particularly uncomfortable using the battery grip but I use it anyway because I like having the two batteries and the other button.

jbssm said:

jbssm said:

Ya, you'll sure show them won't you?
I'll bet it won't be long before you're finding the same faults
with Nikon. After all aren't their D50/D70/D100/D200 lines just
"crippled" versions of their pro series cameras? If you take
your argument about Canon's "crippling" of its products to its
logical conclusion with Nikon you'll find the same "conspiracy"
there too.

Now what? You're running out of camera manufacturers to pick on......

Oh wait, there's Sony. I'm sure they'll be glad to have you as a
customer.

Click to expand...

Hum, how intelligent and witty of you, do you mind to share with us
were in the D50/D70/D100/D200 lines, Nikon crippled the firmware?

Click to expand...

Nevermind, if you didn't get the general idea my explaining it again won't make any difference.......and will probably only result in another less than polite reply from you.

I have just gotten a 5D and a couple of lenses and the 580EX flash. I have a full kit of Nikons - from the Nikon F to the D2X/D200. It took about 1 hour to get used to the 5D controls, although I like the Nikon controls better (I am so used to them).

I am troubled by one aspect of the flash control - in Av shooting mode, the 5D either sets the shutter speed according to the ambient lighting or defaults to 1/250 sec (custom function). I like the Nikons' ability to default to any chosen shutter speed in A mode with flash.

I therefore shoot in M mode when using indoor flash, so as to catch at least a bit of the ambient light (I use 1/30 sec or so). What do other folks do with indoor flash?

Thanks. This is my first dpreview post and my "coming out" as a Canon person.

Russ

hnew said:

I therefore shoot in M mode when using indoor flash, so as to catch
at least a bit of the ambient light (I use 1/30 sec or so). What
do other folks do with indoor flash?

Click to expand...

Shoot in M mode. Tv as needed to freeze subject by ambient light, Av as needed for depth-of-field and ISO as needed to obtain the amount of ambient light you want. Essentially, M mode is what you say the Nikon is doing. You're setting shutter speed, aperture and ISO all manually, right?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

hnew said:

I have just gotten a 5D and a couple of lenses and the 580EX flash.
I have a full kit of Nikons - from the Nikon F to the D2X/D200. It
took about 1 hour to get used to the 5D controls, although I like
the Nikon controls better (I am so used to them).

I am troubled by one aspect of the flash control - in Av shooting
mode, the 5D either sets the shutter speed according to the ambient
lighting or defaults to 1/250 sec (custom function). I like the
Nikons' ability to default to any chosen shutter speed in A mode
with flash.

Click to expand...

My friend has the D70 and he loves the way av mode mixes the ambient light, so much so he is always borrowing my backup 20D, he says its just too hard to mix the ambient light with nikon, the only tip with AV and flash is fast lenses or Image Stabiliser lenses, if it gets too dark shoot manual, and don't be afraid to use high ISO's

hnew said:

I therefore shoot in M mode when using indoor flash, so as to catch
at least a bit of the ambient light (I use 1/30 sec or so). What
do other folks do with indoor flash?

Click to expand...

I always use Manual, you have full control over DOF and shutter, the lower the shutter the more ambient light, the same with ISO, the higher the ISO the more ambient light in the picture, but always bounce with a stofen or lightsphere, the flash takes care of the exposure

hnew said:

Thanks. This is my first dpreview post and my "coming out" as a
Canon person.

Click to expand...

wish you all the best

hnew said:

Russ

Click to expand...

Regards, Lawrence

--
I Wish I Had a Monkey's Paw

I've used both 1DMkII and D200. They are just different. If you count up all the buttons, I think you'll find that they have equal #s. It's not like one has only 5 and the other 17!!!

Arguaby there are more functions controlled by Nikon's buttons: intervalometer, multiexposure etc that are not on the Canon. But either way, they are just buttons and knobs to get the photo taken. And how often do we use all the buttons on an every day basis?

PerL said:

I have a D200. Recently I bought a D50 as a second body for a
travel to Kenya. My brother bought a Canon 350D for the same trip.
What struck me was how similar the interface of the D50 was to the
D200 (and even the D2x/D2H), and how different the 350D was
compared to a Canon 20/30D (which I also have played with), not to
mention the 1D-series.
It was very easy to switch between the Nikon cameras, but I can
image it would be frustrating to mix different Canon bodies if you
work fast.

Updated jan 9: [ http://tri-xstories.blogspot.com/ ]
http://www.pbase.com/interactive

Click to expand...

I have a d50 and had d2h and got tripped up after using one for a longer period. The d50 and d200 look more similar in button layout though.

jbssm said:

jbssm said:

Well, cannibalizing the sales of another camera is a cost to Canon,
so they did what they did to maximize profit; it's called business.

Click to expand...

Ahh, so that is why so many American corporation have sweat shops
in the third world were children work for them 10 hours a day for
20 cents an hour ... this so called business thing looks
interesting ... I'm glad you share your view with us that whatever
makes profit for them is perfectly acceptable ... after all, pooor
share holders.

Click to expand...

Well let's see, Canon locked out some features on an amature level camera to make the next step up look a little more attractive, and you're equating that to sweatshop labor?

thx1138 said:

Given how many of us use the * button for AF these days, I think
this button needs a complete redesign to reflect it's importance.
It's way too small and I agree is not optimally placed, although I
don't have trouble accessing it. It needs to be a larger button
IMO, closer in size and feel to the shutter button and it could be
shifted slightly say down away from the home button and AF point
selection button.

Click to expand...

I'd agree with that; although, I too don't really have a problem with the * button as is. But yes larger, and perhaps maybe angled a little bit towards the thumb would be nice, and maybe a little bump in the center just for good measure.