Canon vs. Nikon ergonomics

[Mig]

Yes you are right - you have to look to see what is happening and that is the problem. Assuring you hit the right two is a task.

I also agree that the top buttons do control 7 functions and the fact the buttons are marked does help. But part of my point is that the 20D does not have this cumbersome system and is easier to use (I try not to read manuals, but at times I am forced to)

Don't get me wrong - the system does work. The question was which was better or in a sense easier to use or which one likes more - I use both systems. I can switch w/o problem between the two (actually four systems). I am not a dumb guy nor brand loyal or bias.

I disagree about the focus points - it is a disaster. It may be fine if you can spend the time to fumble through it - but it is too slow ( a side effect of 45 points). Its just too much work to do quickly and really kicks work flow down a few gears - to be honest I am forced to skip some shots b/c it takes too much time.

I use both systems and have done so for a few years - I also use a SD9, which is really just dials with little control.

What counts is the output - getting there can be a pain - but one lives with it.

 

[Ronnie T]

I don't think any of you is right or wrong. The fact of the matter is we all have different size hands, finger length, use one eye over the other, dull or sharper nose, prefer steak over chicken, a beautiful face over a nice butt. One size does not fit all! Take your pick. I'm sure you will be happy on whatever you picked!

 

[David J. Littleboy]

I don't think any of you is right or wrong. The fact of the matter
is we all have different size hands, finger length, use one eye
over the other, dull or sharper nose, prefer steak over chicken, a
beautiful face over a nice butt. One size does not fit all! Take
your pick. I'm sure you will be happy on whatever you picked!

Canon kills Nikon on image quality, so the ergonomics simply don't matter.

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

 

[PalmsWestPhoto]

is what people try to use when they run out of factual arguments

i have shot both nikon and canon and both of them have their issues and both have things that are a little better than the other

none of them is anywhere near perfect

overall i prefer canon but there are certainly things that could be better and i could certainly get used to shooting a nikon within a few days and live with its ergonomic limitations as well

But, changing the way things work isnt always that easy. Not just woth cameras with everything that has a user interface and an already active user base.

if you change something you may make new users a little happier but you could potentially annoy all your existing customers.

So you decide on how annoying each change will be to them and how much you would gain for new customers.

You weigh the two against each other and decide. Simple as that

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

 

[GazzaJagman]

Yeah, that makes me laugh. Marchello Gandini used to work for them and he designed the Lamborgini Countach...ever seen a glovebox in a countach? It's one of the worst pieces of non-functioning design ever put in a car. They might be able to design nice wing mirrors, but cameras? If you look at say the Canon T90 and compare it to the Nikons of the day, the Canon is a far more flowing ergonomic design. Hallmarks of that design can be still seen in the the current Canon DSLR's.

Personally speaking, I am a Canon user and have been since the early 80's. So I tilt towards Canon because it's what I am very familiar with.

Canon's design is great if you like clean looking cameras that leave the twiddly stuff to the menus - less buttons and less clutter - almost ZEN look.

Or Nikon if you like a more lumpy "knobs & buttons" look of yester year.

Nikon's tent to look more sofisticated as a result. I personally like both but I feel that the Canon concept is more modern.

Gareth Cooper
--
http://www.pbase.com/gazzajagman

'Science is what we dream of, technology is what we are stuck with' Douglas Adams

 

[GazzaJagman]

Both Nikon and Canon DSLR's are pieces of tehcnology...they need manuals so neither are completly intuative...just look at my Douglas Adams quote below....

Gareth
--
http://www.pbase.com/gazzajagman

'Science is what we dream of, technology is what we are stuck with' Douglas Adams

 

[maxz]

after using canons for 15 months my initial complains are almost gone - with a few exceptions though. I agree with Tony Field that there shouldn't be such vast differences in body design. Also the two-hand operation of the 1 series is really cumbersome. Control 7 items with three buttons? Fine - 20D handles that in a much better way. Also the 20D/30D's front+back dial + SET button + mini Gamepad is much handier. Yea hiding everything in the menu makes the camera look a little bit cleaner, but you're gonna love the buttons when you are wearing gloves working in the cold and dark.

Also a wider AF sensor coverage would be really nice... and the option to reduce the number from 45 to 5 or even 3 is welcomed as well...
Max

 

[vadims]

if you change something you may make new users a little happier but
you could potentially annoy all your existing customers.

Yeh, just imagine the angry outcry if Canon replaces Print button with MLU or, worse, makes it fully programmable...

;-)

 

[wilfredmrand]

Did anyone mention an option for full frame, should you have the need for it?

--
Wilfred M Rand
http://www.pbase.com/wilfredmrand/

 

[jbssm]

Well, regarding the physical ergonomics I don't know much, but...

Although I use Canon and I believe the Canon image quality is better, the truth is that I really think the way Canon is conducting they business is very disregarding way towards the costumer.

The main point is, when Nikon makes a camera they put everything they can put in it if it doesn't rise the price tag.

When Canon builds a camera, they intentfull cripple the camera just to try and raise an artificial difference between their products.

Everybody remembers the 300D (the one I'm more accustomed to and know better) and the fact that Canon crippled it's software so that it didn't compete with the sale of the 10D, although in fact the 300D could do a bit more (flash exposure compensation, other focus modes, MLU ...) for a 0$ cost to Canon in the production and R&D development of the unit.
I believe there are similar issues with the 5D vs the 1D.

To me this is a very bad thing, it's what corporations do when they think they got the monopoly and they can just push the costumer around cause we will not have the courage to go and buy another brand.

Believe me, as soon as Nikon catches with Canon (it it ever does) in technology (mainly sensor ISO capability and lens image stabilisation) I will jump wagon even if it means I'll loose some money.

Also, let me please state that an just an Amateur photographer, so jumping to Nikon will not be very expensive to me.

Just my 2 cents ... Euro cents

 

[budcub]

I try to avoid Canon vs Nikon arguments on this forum. I've shot Canon since I started with SLRs (1992). When I was at the camera store, I had narrowed my decision down to the Canon EOS Elan, or the Nikon N6006. The Canon's ergonomics I had figured out almost immediately with little to no assistance. Plus it was whisper quiet, a new innovation at the time. The Nikon's controls didn't seem so user friendly. So, I went with Canon, and have stayed with them ever since.

Now, if I had devoted maybe 5 more minutes to learning the Nikon's controls, maybe I might have gone with Nikon, then I'd be a Nikon person ever since. I do admit to a bit of buyers remorse, when I realized the kit lens with my Elan was not good, and getting good pictures like I saw in the magazines wasn't going to happen automatically, and Nikon seemed to be more dominant in the market, but once I got up to speed, I was pretty happy with it.
--
Brendan
http://budcub.smugmug.com

 

[Skip M]

There are occasions that you don't notice these things. I spent the day yesterday on ISO 800, shooting at f2.8-5.6, and never noticed the shutter speed. I thought I was still set on ISO200, my normal setting. I forgot I changed it for a wedding this weekend and never changed it back. Call it a "senior moment," not clueless. Having the ISO in the VF all the time, rather than on call with a button, would have prevented this. Not irreparable, just irritating.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

 

[BazGibb]

Your comparison was one Nikon and two Canons? Immediately your test starts off biased im afraid which means your findings, though probably right, lost a little bit of their lustre.

 

[PerL]

I had my first chance to try a D200 this weekend. I didn't save the
shots to do a head-to-head comparison, but that's not what I was
interested in anyway.

I've read a lot about the D200 on this site and others so I pretty
much know what the result would be anyway. My real question was
"how are the ergonomics"?

Verdict: Fair to good, but no better, and certainly not something
I'd brag about.

I had for my comparison a 30d, 5d, and D200. I've never really
liked all the Nikon buttons, control wheels, levers, and steam
exhaust ports , but I did expect the camera to feel better in my
hands. I was surprised, and disappointed, when the Canon felt
superior in every way (tactile). Canon makes "cleaner" cameras IMO.

Any solid evaluations out there? Did I miss something or not give
it enough time?

Thanks, jim

--

I have a D200. Recently I bought a D50 as a second body for a travel to Kenya. My brother bought a Canon 350D for the same trip. What struck me was how similar the interface of the D50 was to the D200 (and even the D2x/D2H), and how different the 350D was compared to a Canon 20/30D (which I also have played with), not to mention the 1D-series.

It was very easy to switch between the Nikon cameras, but I can image it would be frustrating to mix different Canon bodies if you work fast.

Updated jan 9: [ http://tri-xstories.blogspot.com/ ]
http://www.pbase.com/interactive

 

[Skip M]

When I used to switch between an A2 and a 1n, I'd find the transition a little disconcerting. When I pick up my daughter's Rebel XT (350D), I can't figure out how to access some settings. My 20D and 5D have pretty much the same control set, so that's not a problem.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

 

[Conan]

One of the things a lot of people seem to forget is that EOS camera design didn't begin with digital SLRs but has been in evolution since 1986 or so. Something I've always liked about Canon is their relative consistancy across cameras since the birth of EOS; if you can use one of them, you can basically use any of them. I will say that for what I do, which is far lighter work than say a war correspondent, the 1D-series is too much, and the ergonomics of the mid-level cameras is much better for my tastes. But after saying that, it only took me maybe 30 minutes to familiarize myself with about 90% of what the 1D mk IIn could do and to set it up to my preference (and that was without the manual).

As far as the whole issue of focusing point selection goes, there is a custom function that reduces the number of points and changes the point selection method, which is handy if you change focusing points a lot. Personally, I've been wanting to see them bring back the eye controlled selection feature as I found it to work quite well on the EOS 3 even with my glasses on (of course they won't do this on the 1D-series if it sacrifices the 100% viewfinder but it'd be nice to have on the mid-range bodes).

I also don't find it an issue figuring out which dial does what in whatever mode you're in. The command dial is always your primary dial: shutter in shutter priority mode, aperture in aperture priority mode, and logically shutter in manual mode. But I've used these cameras for years so it's second nature for me. And that, if you ask me, is where Canon shines; I don't have to learn things anew for the most part when I buy a new camera, and Nikon seems to have finally picked up on that as well.

But to tell you the truth I've always been skeptical of people that can't hack multiple systems at the same time. Camera layout is really the least of my concerns when I'm out shooting. But maybe it's that I don't see a need to change settings as often as some people apperantly do, ISO sure, WB is less of a concern since I mainly shoot RAW, and I really only usually use the center AF point. Granted that's me, and maybe no one else, but I've never seen that Nikon has any significant edge in the ergonomics department, and I've spent a fair amount of time around their cameras in the last several years as well.

But consistancy doesn't rule out change. There's a few things that I wouldn't mind seeing Canon improve on, and I'd agree with several of the points that have already been made so I won't bother repeating them.

 

[Sabatia]

I recently upgraded from the XT to the 30D. Though I love its lightness, the XT is a distinctly unergonomic unintuitive camera. One cannot generalize about a brand, as in Nikon vrs Canon. It least given this example of--is it their largest selling DSLR?--the XT.

My first SLRs were Nikons but, and I don't remember exactly why, I switched to Canon with the EOSs. The real joy of camera ergonomics began with an Elan. The wheel on the back, just instantly changing settings with the viewfinder up to my eye, was like a revelation, particularly dailing in exposure compensation to bracket slides. After a while working next with an A2e (my god, how failed as the "glorious" "exciting" eye-controlled focus), but shooting became more previsualization and actually seeing in both a clear way and a gestalt way what was in the viewfinder--and that's ultimately what its about of course.

The XT was my first DSLR. I've gotten older and just can't lug my loaded massive old 787 Tarmac and a tripod, even a carbon fiber Gitzo. Light camera that I maybe don't need a tripod for because of all the image stabilizer lenses. Or maybe I just got lazy. Nonetheless, I bought an XT, stepping up from a Canon Pro1--loving to shoot at sunset (and formerly sunrise when I was a more ambitous shooter), and finding the lack of higher useable ISO elevation frustrating, though a nice camera to use and capable of taking outstanding images). It was not the feeling of the camera in the hand, for though I have large hands, I found the camera quite pleasant to hold, it is the lack of intuitive controls for exposure compensation. It is primarily the lack of the rear control wheel that causes this camera to not be fun, at least to me.

Since getting the 30D, the pleasure has returned. I am shooting two or three times as many images a week. Obviously I'm not a pro--but my images are used professionally and repeatedly to some regular praise. But now to complain for a moment about the 30D: The XT uses the little pocket RC-1 remote control. What a simple wonderful little tool for shooting MLU. You don't have to plug anything in as on higher end Canons. It fits in a shirt pocket. You don't have to worry about damaging contacts or threads in testy conditions. If they can put this on the bottom of the line, why can't they put it on every camera? The multiple steps to get to MLU are also just so unintuitive. I also find myself constantly turning off the rear control dial and then getting confused when I dial in exposure compensation and nothing happens. Still, a great camera. Canon comes so close to really soaring, but you get the sense sometimes that stupid, so-called "business decisions"....

 

[precognito]

Neither Canon nor Nikon although I have chosen Canon (both a 5D and a 30D). Because my workflow is exclusively RAW, I don't often have to dip into the menus. Fortunately both bodies have the same control layout, making a switch from one to the other relatively painless.

As far as ergonomics go, at least on paper at this point as it hasn't been released, Panasonic's DMC-L1 comes closest to my old manual Nikon Fs and F2s: shutter speed dial atop, aperture ring on the lens barrel. The A position on the aperture ring selects aperture priority. Likewise on the shutter speed dial, an A position on the shutter speed dial selects shutter priority. Switches grouped around the SS dial take care of drive and metering functions. No menus to wade through. White balance, ISO and autofocus mode, and other functions unique to the camera are handled by dedicated buttons on the back. So far so good for someone accustomed to traditional controls. The camera itself, by virtue of its sensor and interesting but compromised live view feature, may prove to be an overpriced and underperforming design exercise, but I do like the thought that has gone into the control layout.

 

[vadims]

Neither Canon nor Nikon although I have chosen Canon (both a 5D and
a 30D).
...
As far as ergonomics go, at least on paper at this point as it
hasn't been released, Panasonic's DMC-L1 comes closest to my old
manual Nikon Fs and F2s: shutter speed dial atop, aperture ring on
the lens barrel. The A position on the aperture ring selects
aperture priority. Likewise on the shutter speed dial, an A
position on the shutter speed dial selects shutter priority.

Was exactly my point; see the bottom of my other message:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=19159315

Although I suspect that it won't feel as good as a Canon in the hand...

 

[Dennis_Wood]

Yes you are right - you have to look to see what is happening and
that is the problem. Assuring you hit the right two is a task.

I also agree that the top buttons do control 7 functions and the
fact the buttons are marked does help. But part of my point is
that the 20D does not have this cumbersome system and is easier to
use (I try not to read manuals, but at times I am forced to)

Don't get me wrong - the system does work. The question was which
was better or in a sense easier to use or which one likes more - I
use both systems. I can switch w/o problem between the two
(actually four systems). I am not a dumb guy nor brand loyal or
bias.

I disagree about the focus points - it is a disaster. It may be
fine if you can spend the time to fumble through it - but it is too
slow ( a side effect of 45 points). Its just too much work to do
quickly and really kicks work flow down a few gears - to be honest
I am forced to skip some shots b/c it takes too much time.

I use both systems and have done so for a few years - I also use a
SD9, which is really just dials with little control.

What counts is the output - getting there can be a pain - but one
lives with it.

sorry, but having both a 20D and a pair of 1D2s I much prefer the easier and quicker to use system of the 1D2.

once again, to each their own, but to call one or the other poorly designed because you just don't like it or feel comfortable with it is in poor taste at best.