Please report the 707 Flash DOF Problem

/steve · Nov 16, 2001

Ted,

Now I'm confused. Why would there be any automatic regulation by the camera when in manual mode? Seems counter-intuitive, no?

Thanks.

steve

TurboTed said:
Richard C said:

Don,
I think you've probably answered my, and Steve's question, but just
to confirm, in manual exposure/forced flash mode you still do get
flash metering, like my SLR don't you?

Click to expand...

Yes but only with the built in flash.

TurboTed said:

Richard

[I] steve said:

I'm sorry. I hit enter before I finished my post.

What I meant to ask was:

How do you arrive at the right exposure in this mode? Doesn't
manual mode disable the camera's built-in metering system? And does
the EVF darken?

Thanks in advance.

steve

TurboTed said:

Donniedark said:

It's been discussed in many posts but to reiterate...Use MANUAL
mode and forced Flash and you can set whatever aperture and shutter
speed you want...granted this becomes "Fill Flash" in the pure
sense but it will accomplish the control of DOF thru the "back"
door. I find it to be my best workaround.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

[/I]

Glenn Barber · Nov 16, 2001

Its probably the flash thats being controlled via feedback from the camera.

[I] steve said:
Now I'm confused. Why would there be any automatic regulation by
the camera when in manual mode? Seems counter-intuitive, no?

Thanks.

steve

TurboTed said:

Richard C said:

Don,
I think you've probably answered my, and Steve's question, but just
to confirm, in manual exposure/forced flash mode you still do get
flash metering, like my SLR don't you?

Click to expand...

Yes but only with the built in flash.

/steve said:

Richard

[I] steve said:

I'm sorry. I hit enter before I finished my post.

What I meant to ask was:

How do you arrive at the right exposure in this mode? Doesn't
manual mode disable the camera's built-in metering system? And does
the EVF darken?

Thanks in advance.

steve

/steve said:

Donniedark said:

It's been discussed in many posts but to reiterate...Use MANUAL
mode and forced Flash and you can set whatever aperture and shutter
speed you want...granted this becomes "Fill Flash" in the pure
sense but it will accomplish the control of DOF thru the "back"
door. I find it to be my best workaround.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

[/I][/I]

Richard C · Nov 16, 2001

Thanks Don,

It doesn't sound as if there is anything in this that will stop me from using the F707 in a similar way to the Nikon SLR. I generally aim to have the background underexposed by about 2 stops, so the EVF should be (judging from my experience with a similar EVF on my TRV900 camcorder) dark but still useable. I much prefer the results you get this way as you don't lose the ambience of the surroundings. In really low-light conditions you can safely go down to 1/4 or even 1/2 sec exposure as long as you keep the ambient exposure to about 25% of the flash exposure, blurring of the background isn't an issue and the "core" sharp image on the subject overwhelms any blurring caused by the long exposure. Auto flash under these conditions gives totally black backgrounds and "kangaroo in the headlights" type lighting to the subject. I really don't regard this sort of thing as a"work-around", it's really just sensible use of the camera's capabilities to achieve a desired result. The beauty of digital, of course, is the instant feedback you get.

Richard.

Donniedark said:
Yes..the EVF will darken...no doubt about that. I feel this is the big compromise one must "accept" but if you are confident about the composure of your shot, all will turn out. The exposure may or may not be right but the Fill Flash will be the compensator for this...you may have to try several combinations of Shutter speed and Aperture to get a feel for this. Also you can use LOW/NORMAL/Hi Flash settings in MENU, as well as EXPOSURE Compensation from +2 to-2.

Try playing with different settings and see what works for your Scene
Hope this helps a little
Don C

Donniedark · Nov 16, 2001

Richard C said:
Thanks Don,

It doesn't sound as if there is anything in this that will stop me
from using the F707 in a similar way to the Nikon SLR. I generally
aim to have the background underexposed by about 2 stops, so the
EVF should be (judging from my experience with a similar EVF on my
TRV900 camcorder) dark but still useable. I much prefer the
results you get this way as you don't lose the ambience of the
surroundings. In really low-light conditions you can safely go
down to 1/4 or even 1/2 sec exposure as long as you keep the
ambient exposure to about 25% of the flash exposure, blurring of
the background isn't an issue and the "core" sharp image on the
subject overwhelms any blurring caused by the long exposure. Auto
flash under these conditions gives totally black backgrounds and
"kangaroo in the headlights" type lighting to the subject. I
really don't regard this sort of thing as a"work-around", it's
really just sensible use of the camera's capabilities to achieve a
desired result. The beauty of digital, of course, is the instant
feedback you get.

Richard.

As always in STF...postings by the folks like Turboted and Ulysses have even further clarified the "workaround". Glad to hear you feel "confident" about our "baby"
Don C

Richard C said:
Donniedark said:

Yes..the EVF will darken...no doubt about that. I feel this is the big compromise one must "accept" but if you are confident about the composure of your shot, all will turn out. The exposure may or may not be right but the Fill Flash will be the compensator for this...you may have to try several combinations of Shutter speed and Aperture to get a feel for this. Also you can use LOW/NORMAL/Hi Flash settings in MENU, as well as EXPOSURE Compensation from +2 to-2.

Click to expand...

Try playing with different settings and see what works for your Scene
Hope this helps a little
Don C

Jeff Adams61971 · Nov 16, 2001

nathan said:
I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots [snip]

I'm glad that for you this isn't a problem. However, I suspect I'm not alone here. Here's my scenario: We've got young kids. We've got a Nikon 8008 and N70. The wife uses the N70 and it takes great shots of the kids. I want to move us into digital and had decided on the 707. My wife is absolutely not going to mess around with manual mode and a dark finder to take decent pictures of the kids on a day-to-day basis. Ain't gonna happen. In my extremely humble opinion

Sony has to make up their mind - either this is a camera for the masses (which it can't be for people that plan to take a lot of indoor flash pictures, which I assure you is a LOT of people with kids), or it's for the "pro-sumer" (in which case one would think they would have provided options for the apeture in flash mode - just because someone is a "pro" doesn't mean they should suffer with an (arguably I guess since I haven't seen it) EVF that is too dark).

All this has basically caused me to put entering the digital arena on hold. I visisted a local shop yesterday to look at the Dimage 7 again, then came back and read Phil's review again. Even at $800 I can't bring myself to buy that product. The 707 is an incredible product, and I really want it badly (you know that feeling of gear lust, right?

), but if my wife can't just pick it up at a moment's notice and click that shot of the baby doing something cute (or whatever), I can't buy the camera. Period. It's a show stopper.

Thanks for listening

TurboTed · Nov 16, 2001

[I] steve said:
Ted,

Now I'm confused. Why would there be any automatic regulation by
the camera when in manual mode? Seems counter-intuitive, no?

You have control over the aperture, shutter, and ISO but the flash is still controlled by the camera. In older CyberShots I believe the flash power is determined by subject distance and a rudimentary light sensor. The F707 will still take into account the subject distance but it also has the pre-flash metering when using the built in flash.

/steve said:
Thanks.

steve

TurboTed said:

Richard C said:

Don,
I think you've probably answered my, and Steve's question, but just
to confirm, in manual exposure/forced flash mode you still do get
flash metering, like my SLR don't you?

Click to expand...

Yes but only with the built in flash.

/steve said:

Richard

[I] steve said:

I'm sorry. I hit enter before I finished my post.

What I meant to ask was:

How do you arrive at the right exposure in this mode? Doesn't
manual mode disable the camera's built-in metering system? And does
the EVF darken?

Thanks in advance.

steve

/steve said:

Donniedark said:

It's been discussed in many posts but to reiterate...Use MANUAL
mode and forced Flash and you can set whatever aperture and shutter
speed you want...granted this becomes "Fill Flash" in the pure
sense but it will accomplish the control of DOF thru the "back"
door. I find it to be my best workaround.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

[/I][/I]

Jeff Adams61971 · Nov 16, 2001

Jay Jervey said:
And there are those who have a habit of making a mountain out of a
mole hill too. Your major rant is that Sony should have provided a
default flash DOF menu entry. Does any other camera manufacturer do
this? Why would you expect Sony to ex post facto provide this? Just
because you want it?

Please listen to what people are saying. The problem is exacterbated on this new model due to the increased CCD size and F2.0 apeture. This ability to have shallow DOF is terrific (and one of the reasons that I had planned to buy this camera) in a number of situations.

However it's extremely important for people to know this information before spending $1,000 and finding out the camera can't take good indoor flash pictures in auto mode. I suspect if you asked Joe and Jane Q Public, there are a whole lot of people who will use their digital cameras to take indoor snapshots. I'm extremely happy for you that you don't consider this an issue. That's great. But for a whole lot of other people, it is or will be if they buy this camera not knowing it's limitations. it's a shame that Sony didn't consider this during the development phase. I would be extremely surprised if they intentionally designed this camera to not be a good choice for people that want to take these kind of shots.

Glenn Barber · Nov 16, 2001

Yup!

My wife uses the Nikon Pronea Xi (the high end APS) and I end up paying for film, prints (about $20 per roll) , and then scan the APS with the CoolScan 2000 if I want to edit them . The Nikon does get the shots right - wish they had an affordable digi-SLR. I am paying for the failed 505v and 707 in more ways than you know.

I would think about a Canon D50? ( a five megapixel version of the D30) if it became available.

Jeff Adams said:
nathan said:

I don't feel that this is a problem with the camera. You can use
manual to work around this If you want more depth of field in your
flash shots [snip]

Click to expand...

I'm glad that for you this isn't a problem. However, I suspect I'm
not alone here. Here's my scenario: We've got young kids. We've got
a Nikon 8008 and N70. The wife uses the N70 and it takes great
shots of the kids. I want to move us into digital and had decided
on the 707. My wife is absolutely not going to mess around with
manual mode and a dark finder to take decent pictures of the kids
on a day-to-day basis. Ain't gonna happen. In my extremely humble
opinion Sony has to make up their mind - either this is a
camera for the masses (which it can't be for people that plan to
take a lot of indoor flash pictures, which I assure you is a LOT of
people with kids), or it's for the "pro-sumer" (in which case one
would think they would have provided options for the apeture in
flash mode - just because someone is a "pro" doesn't mean they
should suffer with an (arguably I guess since I haven't seen it)
EVF that is too dark).

All this has basically caused me to put entering the digital arena
on hold. I visisted a local shop yesterday to look at the Dimage 7
again, then came back and read Phil's review again. Even at $800 I
can't bring myself to buy that product. The 707 is an incredible
product, and I really want it badly (you know that feeling of gear
lust, right? ), but if my wife can't just pick it up at a
moment's notice and click that shot of the baby doing something
cute (or whatever), I can't buy the camera. Period. It's a show
stopper.

Thanks for listening

MartyB · Nov 16, 2001

On the D7: With the built it up you can shield it in front and trip a digi-slave sensor which ignores the pre-flash or you can use the Minolta 5600 flash in its manual mode which switches off pre-flash, aimed straight up, and set to 1/64th power. A sync cord connection with new firmware will be out soon, the pct-100, fits in the hot shoe.
So get on Sony. This can be fixed.
Marty

Bryan Biggers said:
Ulysses said:

And yet it's interesting to see that each camera has its own brand
of inconsistencies (like Bryan mentioned). A lot has to do with how
we handle what we've got and whether we can think around our
camera's limitations.

Click to expand...

Yup, no perfect camera yet. You just have to decide what bits you
like, and what you can live with, get one, and stop listening to
those that think that you should have gotten somethign else. Every
camera out there has some issue that is going to bother you at some
time. Some things, like camera size, are never going to be
"perfect"; depends on what you do with it. Bryan

Kirk Klemme · Nov 16, 2001

In a situation where one is moving from daylight situations into a flash environment and are presumably switching from auto to manual control and back again, does the 707 remember previous manual settings or do you have to start from scratch each time?

What about if you turn the camera off in between?

Thanks, Kirk Klemme

Glenn Barber · Nov 16, 2001

Yes - thank goodness.

Kirk Klemme said:
In a situation where one is moving from daylight situations into a
flash environment and are presumably switching from auto to manual
control and back again, does the 707 remember previous manual
settings or do you have to start from scratch each time?

What about if you turn the camera off in between?

Thanks, Kirk Klemme

John Charlesworth · Nov 16, 2001

I too have been bitten by the super-shallow DOF when using the 707's flash....

When I switched to Manual, f4, 1/30th in a dim room, I found that the auto-focus gets confused.

If you half-push the shutter release and > then

At f2 (the 707's default in a dim room on Auto), the Auto-Focus seems fairly consistent in setting its focal distance.

However, at f4 the focal distance varies wildly from one shot to the next. Try it--just try a few repetitions of half-pressing the shutter release and then going from Auto- to Manual-focus. You'll see the "computed distance" of a textured wall can vary from 2 to 6m (!).

My guess is that the auto-focus system needs the higher light-levels and narrower DOF of a wide-open aperture in order to focus properly.

Even though I really don't like it, my guess is that this is a possible reason Sony engineered the 707 this way.

Thoughts?

... john

Glenn Barber · Nov 16, 2001

Most cameras focus and range using the lens wide open - however they stop down as the picture is taken.

John Charlesworth said:
I too have been bitten by the super-shallow DOF when using the
707's flash....

When I switched to Manual, f4, 1/30th in a dim room, I found that
the auto-focus gets confused.

If you half-push the shutter release and > then
to Manual-Focus, you'll see a display of the current focal distance.

At f2 (the 707's default in a dim room on Auto), the Auto-Focus
seems fairly consistent in setting its focal distance.

However, at f4 the focal distance varies wildly from one shot to
the next. Try it--just try a few repetitions of half-pressing the
shutter release and then going from Auto- to Manual-focus. You'll
see the "computed distance" of a textured wall can vary from 2 to
6m (!).

My guess is that the auto-focus system needs the higher
light-levels and narrower DOF of a wide-open aperture in order to
focus properly.

Even though I really don't like it, my guess is that this is a
possible reason Sony engineered the 707 this way.

Thoughts?

... john

Ulysses · Nov 16, 2001

John Charlesworth said:
I too have been bitten by the super-shallow DOF when using the
If you half-push the shutter release and > then
to Manual-Focus, you'll see a display of the current focal distance.

I'm not really certain that this is a reliable way to check on this.

But you're on the right track about something else. If the Hologram AF doesn't kick in to assist, then the camera at F4 has to rely on much less** light in order to allow its contrast detection system to work. If there is not enough light, then there's not enough contrast either for the camera to lock on.

John Charlesworth · Nov 16, 2001

Glenn said:
Most cameras focus and range using the lens wide open - however
they stop down as the picture is taken.

Good point.

However the 707 seems to focus at whatever aperture the final picture will be taken at.

So if you specify f4, the focusing/ranging will be done at f4 (rather than focusing at f2 and then stopping down to f4 during exposure).

So the (Manual, f4, 1/30) workaround won't work as well as we might have hoped. (Manual focus in a dim room with this configuration is essentially impossible, even with "Expanded Focus")

Sigh.

... john

/steve · Nov 16, 2001

John Charlesworth said:
My guess is that the auto-focus system needs the higher
light-levels and narrower DOF of a wide-open aperture in order to
focus properly.

Even though I really don't like it, my guess is that this is a
possible reason Sony engineered the 707 this way.

Thoughts?

John,

Nice piece of detective work! If you're correct, Sony might have served us better by only having the aperture close for the actual exposure. According to another poster in this forum who owns one, the Minolta Dimage 7 operates this way.

steve

John Charlesworth · Nov 16, 2001

Ulysses said:
John Charlesworth said:

I too have been bitten by the super-shallow DOF when using the
If you half-push the shutter release and > then
to Manual-Focus, you'll see a display of the current focal distance.

Click to expand...

I'm not really certain that this is a reliable way to check on this.

But you're on the right track about something else. If the Hologram
AF doesn't kick in to assist, then the camera at F4 has to rely on
much less** light in order to allow its contrast detection system
to work. If there is not enough light, then there's not enough
contrast either for the camera to lock on.

Surprisingly, I have found this focus-uncertainty even with the Hologram AF going.

It's as if the auto-focus circuitry only works well with a wide-open aperture.

With a bigger DOF (smaller aperture), it seems to "give up" trying to fine-tune the focus when it gets "close enough". But my tests show that it can be off on its computed distance by more than a factor of 2 on anything other than wide-open...

Has anyone else tried this in a dim room with stopped-down aperture?

... john

John Charlesworth · Nov 16, 2001

Steve,

/steve said:
Nice piece of detective work! If you're correct, Sony might have
served us better by only having the aperture close for the actual
exposure. According to another poster in this forum who owns one,
the Minolta Dimage 7 operates this way.

I definitely agree.

Are there any conditions in which the 707 is able to change the aperture for the actual exposure? (compose at one aperture, expose at another)

If not, then the 707 Flash DOF Problem could be a physical limitaion of the camera that a firmware fix wouldn't be able to fix.

Anyone know?

... j

Egill Masson · Nov 16, 2001

http://www.picturetrail.com/reviews/PRODS/FD95/FD95aPT-1a.shtml

"We were pleased to see that the camera (i.e. FD95) and flash (i.e. F1000)worked together in all exposure modes, with the flash adjusting its output to match the camera's aperture setting or light sensitivity quite nicely: In aperture-priority mode, the flash responded properly to apertures across the full range from f/2.8 to f/11, while in Twilight Plus mode, the flash handled the camera's increased light sensitivity exactly right. "

Ulysses wrote:
.....

Member said:
It's going to take the Sony engineers rethinking their entire
approach to this one. It's the same behavior that has existed in
all of their Cyber-shots. Interestingly, someone mentioned that the
Mavica didn't do this. Hmm....

Ulysses · Nov 16, 2001

John Charlesworth said:
Surprisingly, I have found this focus-uncertainty even with the
Hologram AF going.

It's as if the auto-focus circuitry only works well with a
wide-open aperture.

With a bigger DOF (smaller aperture), it seems to "give up" trying
to fine-tune the focus when it gets "close enough". But my tests
show that it can be off on its computed distance by more than a
factor of 2 on anything other than wide-open...

Has anyone else tried this in a dim room with stopped-down aperture?

Can you post some samples of this in action?

Please report the 707 Flash DOF Problem

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