Troubling Noise on the d2h

You have had a day now to post a 'non-copyrighted' image. I (and many others) have made suggestions, including references and examples of what may be causing the problem. Yet you still do not get to the heart of the problem. Will you show us an example, or discuss some of your thinking on a solution?

And furthermore, can you do that without an ad-hominim attack or obfuscation? We do want to help, but to set yourself up as an adversary is not conducive to problem solving.

Elizabeth McCollister said:

Dear Readers,

With all due respect, here is what I have to say. I'm 57, a Nikon
for 32 years. The interview with the Canon guy posted on these
forums compared to the interview with the Nikon guy were like round
1 of the presidential debates. The core question being, "Will I be
better in 4 years than I am now?"

I bought the d2h recently and immediately noticed the exagerrted
noise compared to others in the Nikon lineup, thus leading to this
line of questioning. I downloaded the Noise Ninja beta tonight and
was totallly surprised by the results. I just shot something
tonight with off-camera flashes. Luckily I was not on deadline.
But it begs the question: will I be better off with Nikon 4 years
from now.

The contrast off-camera flash creates between highlights and
background affect the noise of the d2h. Using NN was incredible.
Zapped the grain and allowed me to sharpen. Used ISO 800
throughout. Shoudln't be a problem, never was with the d70. Wish
the d2h would have inbuillt NR.

Unfortunately.

Click to expand...

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Wow, I will try to make the 1-day chris101 deadline. Just firing off invoices to clients. Harsh forum. I guess this is the first accusation that the d2h has some noise, must present proof, while others blame me for not using search function on forums.

Chris101 said:

And furthermore, can you do that without an ad-hominim attack or
obfuscation? We do want to help, but to set yourself up as an
adversary is not conducive to problem solving.

Elizabeth McCollister said:

Dear Readers,

With all due respect, here is what I have to say. I'm 57, a Nikon
for 32 years. The interview with the Canon guy posted on these
forums compared to the interview with the Nikon guy were like round
1 of the presidential debates. The core question being, "Will I be
better in 4 years than I am now?"

I bought the d2h recently and immediately noticed the exagerrted
noise compared to others in the Nikon lineup, thus leading to this
line of questioning. I downloaded the Noise Ninja beta tonight and
was totallly surprised by the results. I just shot something
tonight with off-camera flashes. Luckily I was not on deadline.
But it begs the question: will I be better off with Nikon 4 years
from now.

The contrast off-camera flash creates between highlights and
background affect the noise of the d2h. Using NN was incredible.
Zapped the grain and allowed me to sharpen. Used ISO 800
throughout. Shoudln't be a problem, never was with the d70. Wish
the d2h would have inbuillt NR.

Unfortunately.

Click to expand...

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Click to expand...

Wow. I’m surprised you would turn a couple of suggestions for a new member into an accusation that I "seem insecure." This is an unprovoked and unnecessary personal criticism, and from someone “past the age of insecurity” as you claim to be, a surprising response.

Elizabeth McCollister said:

It seems "really old news" generated some interesting insights just
as the topic of Iraq's WMD capabilites have just today stirred new
discussion. Old threads may answer some questions but technology
marches on. The Noise Ninja PS plugin was just released. That
makes my plugin to this forum quite relevent. I am impressed with
the NN plugin. I rarely shoot deadline assignments(for a magazine)
but I did notice the flash-lit areas looked great(color, tone,
noise) but the shadows were not so nice.

You say "post an example of the problem" and at the same time, "the
subject is really old news." Seems like you know every conceivable
thing about this issue.

You seem insecure. I'm past the age of insecurity. That is one of
the gifts of time.

By the way, I have read many posts for and against Nikon.
Dissention always brings up the argument to switch. That's like
saying you should leave your family because of some annoying and
bothersome siblings. Please. I have lived and I will die
clutching Nikons. I have loved and I have hated them. But Nikon
is my family. The ties bind, sometimes loosely.

jb_va2001 said:

1) When complaining or asking for help, please post an example of
the problem you are describing. Other users may learn from you or
have some new advice to offer. (You also get more help, and more
meaningful help this way.)

Because this subject is really old news...
2) Let me suggest using the search function before launching a new
thread. This subject (D2H high ISO noise) has been discussed in
great depth many times before with much good advice already shared.

People knocking Nikon in one form or another and suggesting
switching brands has been widely discussed as well. I don't think
you'll find any new thoughts or ideas on this subject either.
(Again, try searching on this subject if you are curious.)
Moreover, the past has shown threads like this one seem to inspire
trolls and they rapidly degenerate into fairly ugly, unproductive
discussions.

Lastly, if you really feel you would be happier with another brand,
I suggest you switch. Complaining here won't help you.

JB

Elizabeth McCollister said:

Dear Readers,

With all due respect, here is what I have to say. I'm 57, a Nikon
for 32 years. The interview with the Canon guy posted on these
forums compared to the interview with the Nikon guy were like round
1 of the presidential debates. The core question being, "Will I be
better in 4 years than I am now?"

I bought the d2h recently and immediately noticed the exagerrted
noise compared to others in the Nikon lineup, thus leading to this
line of questioning. I downloaded the Noise Ninja beta tonight and
was totallly surprised by the results. I just shot something
tonight with off-camera flashes. Luckily I was not on deadline.
But it begs the question: will I be better off with Nikon 4 years
from now.

The contrast off-camera flash creates between highlights and
background affect the noise of the d2h. Using NN was incredible.
Zapped the grain and allowed me to sharpen. Used ISO 800
throughout. Shoudln't be a problem, never was with the d70. Wish
the d2h would have inbuillt NR.

Unfortunately.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Woah - aren't you the one having problems with your camera?

You haven't responded to anyones attempts to help with your photographic problem, but you have plenty of time to respond to what you perceive as 'bad behavior' on the part of other forum members. Why won't you talk about the noise problem you are haviing? It's not the camera, you know. Photographers like Bill Dewey, Yves P. and Joe Marquez have been getting wonderful results from the D2h at high iso sensitivities. I sent you a link to an Adobe scientist that explains the root cause for high iso noise, and suggested actions to take to overcome the problems, yet you ignored that post.

Specifically, no, you are not the first person to have problems with noise and the D2h. Last week there was another poster, Ruggiero I think was his name. He wouldn't discuss his problem either, and he's nowhere to be seen today. Is it your intent to just keep complaining until you get fed up and leave, like Ruggiero? He ended up name calling and intentionally mispelling names as well.

And I didn't 'blame' you for not searching - that is perjorative. I suggested that you search for noise and D2h so you could find out more information on the subject. Trying to be helpful, you know. I've been trying to be good ever since Ruggy said I was "no a nice person".

I'd suggest taking a step back and deciding if you really want to discuss photography. For a lot of us, an example isn't used for proof, but it gives us something to work from. Plus, your problems can give vicarious learning to members who do not post their own questions. If you don't want help, but just want to complain, - well, that's an option, but then don't expect us to be nice.

Elizabeth McCollister said:

Chris101 said:

And furthermore, can you do that without an ad-hominim attack or
obfuscation? We do want to help, but to set yourself up as an
adversary is not conducive to problem solving.

Elizabeth McCollister said:

Dear Readers,

With all due respect, here is what I have to say. I'm 57, a Nikon
for 32 years. The interview with the Canon guy posted on these
forums compared to the interview with the Nikon guy were like round
1 of the presidential debates. The core question being, "Will I be
better in 4 years than I am now?"

I bought the d2h recently and immediately noticed the exagerrted
noise compared to others in the Nikon lineup, thus leading to this
line of questioning. I downloaded the Noise Ninja beta tonight and
was totallly surprised by the results. I just shot something
tonight with off-camera flashes. Luckily I was not on deadline.
But it begs the question: will I be better off with Nikon 4 years
from now.

The contrast off-camera flash creates between highlights and
background affect the noise of the d2h. Using NN was incredible.
Zapped the grain and allowed me to sharpen. Used ISO 800
throughout. Shoudln't be a problem, never was with the d70. Wish
the d2h would have inbuillt NR.

Unfortunately.

Click to expand...

--
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/categories/photos/
Read my blog -> http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
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Read my blog -> http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/

Steven Noyes said:

In short: Hardware NR is good (in general) Software is Bad (in
general). It is MUCH better to do NR at the hardware level than it
is the software level.

Click to expand...

If that is true then why do Canon's images look so plasticky, a noisy image can be run through NI with much better success compared to the plastic, soft look of Canon's in-camera NR hardware.
KF

I find it funny about people and the noise of the D2h I can not help but think that you arent using the camera right metering is not something that is simple matrix spot or center let the camera do all the work people I do find there is noise in the shadows but no more that any other camera Canon included Its a 4.1 mp camera and people think its a 6.1 or a 8 or 11 mp camera at lease thats they want the photos to look like Like all camerasthere are the right ways and wrong ways to shoot I find that on a portrait I need to move in about a foot or 2 to get the same crop and look as for the Canon 11mp camera ( i did tests on the test sample for the new Canon for details vs D2h) I found for myself at 11x14 Canon had about a 30% better detail (not starting a war here) but at 3 feet away on a print I cant tell the difference..... All I am saying it a different Beast to tame and it does take time to learn I am still learning But I know zones very well Learn zones and it well help ALOT with noise on any camera remeber 255white piont will print as paper white and R3G3B3 pionts have no detail in them let alone RGB of 0 black as printers black can get use the histogram to help with this find where the grey points are Zone 5

Zone 3 is black shadows with detail Zone 2 is shadows with almost no detail just a little for digital way more for film And Zone 7 is highlights with detail Zone 8 highlights with less detail and 9 very little need a good understanding or PS to suck out the raw juices in 9 10 is nothing but thats old school I think most people know Zone System as 0thru8 but there is 10 zones NO digital I have seen goes to 10 but the medium formats digitals there better than slide film now Wow

Best of luck Dragon

It is in the post processing. When done correctly, the "plastic" look is not there. One of the biggest problems is people sharpen with a noise limit not equal to 0.

As I said though, I have seen D2H shots that looked much worse than a 10D snot and visa versa. In short, it is not the HW NR (and remember that many surfaces really are smooth in reality to the level of resolution these cameras have) but the poor post processing being done.

Steven

Kevin Forte said:

Steven Noyes said:

In short: Hardware NR is good (in general) Software is Bad (in
general). It is MUCH better to do NR at the hardware level than it
is the software level.

Click to expand...

If that is true then why do Canon's images look so plasticky, a
noisy image can be run through NI with much better success compared
to the plastic, soft look of Canon's in-camera NR hardware.
KF

Click to expand...

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Since people are quoting their age.
Whatever that means.
So here goes.

I am 79 and I find that the Nikon D2H is a very capable camera
if you know what you are doing.
It helps if you have been shooting slides previously
and if you know photography.

That said, you must nail the exposure.
Previous Nikon dslr cameras let you get away with a lot of slop.

You must really experiment to find the best settings.

Now when I come back from shooting, I get great satisfaction in knowing
that I have nailed the exposure.

It took experimenting the same way shooting slides did.
At times I will shoot raw when I am stumped, so I can correct in NC.

So folks spend some time experimenting and learn phography.
Your life will be more meaningfull if you do.

At present I shoot with D100, D1H, D1X, D2H, Coolpix 950 and 995
as well as F100 and F5.

I will be getting one of the first D2X's from my dealer. Why?
Well I like to shoot birds and many shots need 50% or more cropping.

Noise- well experiment- say be more tolerant ofhighlights, push the histogram to the right, and increase the EV to 1 or more.
Expriment until you get the proper settings for the scene.
Then try another scene.
Spend time and take notes.

Birger

Hi Crunch,

They're supposed to suppress shadow noise somewhat by lowering the lower 1/4 of the exposure curve. You could do it through photoshop, but then you'd be applying it on top of whatever compression curve the camera is putting through the image.

If you download the curves and have a look at them in capture camera control, or even capture itself, it should show you what they're doing =)

Cheers,
Ming

Captain Crunch said:

hmac said:

Elizabeth McCollister said:

Thanks Hmac,

I downloaded Yoshi's curve and I can't wait to check them out. And
yes, we are related: wer'e members of the loving Nikon family.

Click to expand...

Ah. I knew we were related somehow....

One other thing you might try is Auto-ISO in manual exposure mode.
I've not used it enough to have a solid opinion, but reportedly
there are some noise advantages in situations of low and variable
lighting.

Also, Ming Thein has some custom curves that you may like more than
Yoshi's. Look at http://www.ming-group.com/
--
Howard McCollister

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Ming Thein's D2H Noise Reduction curves and galleries at http://www.ming-group.com

ya got to do some work!! Young clucks, err, chicks included.

B Petterson said:

Since people are quoting their age.
Whatever that means.
So here goes.

I am 79 and I find that the Nikon D2H is a very capable camera
if you know what you are doing.
It helps if you have been shooting slides previously
and if you know photography.

That said, you must nail the exposure.
Previous Nikon dslr cameras let you get away with a lot of slop.

You must really experiment to find the best settings.

Now when I come back from shooting, I get great satisfaction in
knowing
that I have nailed the exposure.

It took experimenting the same way shooting slides did.
At times I will shoot raw when I am stumped, so I can correct in NC.

So folks spend some time experimenting and learn phography.
Your life will be more meaningfull if you do.

At present I shoot with D100, D1H, D1X, D2H, Coolpix 950 and 995
as well as F100 and F5.

I will be getting one of the first D2X's from my dealer. Why?
Well I like to shoot birds and many shots need 50% or more cropping.

Noise- well experiment- say be more tolerant ofhighlights, push the
histogram to the right, and increase the EV to 1 or more.
Expriment until you get the proper settings for the scene.
Then try another scene.
Spend time and take notes.

Birger

Click to expand...

--
Larry Gleason

B Petterson said:

Since people are quoting their age.
Whatever that means.
So here goes.

I am 79 and I find that the Nikon D2H is a very capable camera
if you know what you are doing.
It helps if you have been shooting slides previously
and if you know photography.

That said, you must nail the exposure.
Previous Nikon dslr cameras let you get away with a lot of slop.

You must really experiment to find the best settings.

Now when I come back from shooting, I get great satisfaction in
knowing
that I have nailed the exposure.

It took experimenting the same way shooting slides did.
At times I will shoot raw when I am stumped, so I can correct in NC.

So folks spend some time experimenting and learn phography.
Your life will be more meaningfull if you do.

At present I shoot with D100, D1H, D1X, D2H, Coolpix 950 and 995
as well as F100 and F5.

I will be getting one of the first D2X's from my dealer. Why?
Well I like to shoot birds and many shots need 50% or more cropping.

Noise- well experiment- say be more tolerant ofhighlights, push the
histogram to the right, and increase the EV to 1 or more.
Expriment until you get the proper settings for the scene.
Then try another scene.
Spend time and take notes.

Birger

Click to expand...

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Hi Elizabeth,

I bought the D2H four months ago primarily to shoot a big dance company promo in Europe. I used the D2h, D1x, D70, and a Fuji S2 for the shoot. No question that the D2H could get images in lower light, focus faster - it is just an incredible camera. But also, no question that it was the noisiest of them all. The lead maile dancer was wearing black pants and the noise on his pants in the D2H images looked like sparkle paints! I shot NEF which takes enough time to handle. I'm not going to run everything through a NR program, too. I was back and forth with Nikon techs about this, but in the end the range of Fstops in my shoot are too great for the D2H - I always get noise in low light. As a daytime sports camera, it can't be beat. I sent the camera back, was charged a restocking fee that was less than it would have cost to rent the equipement. I am sticking with the D1x - such superior images to the D2H unitil this D2x hits the market. Note that the images for the d70 and S2 are excellent, but the cameras don't respond fast enough to get the shot I need in low light. The S2 sensor is the best, but the S2 camera is the worst of these four for speed and handling. Me thinks that some opinions about noise here are not in the same working conditions you are or are being very loyal to their new equipement. Even the reviews I read state things like the LBCAST sensor isn't what we hoped for in low noise. Best regards, Jack

You have raised something very important here. The camera (like any other camera) does take the picture we command it to take.

Thx for coming out and taking time to give us something to think about and at 79, if your brain still functions this well, I can only image how good the images must be from from experience.

Best respects and regards,

B Petterson said:

Since people are quoting their age.
Whatever that means.
So here goes.

I am 79 and I find that the Nikon D2H is a very capable camera
if you know what you are doing.
It helps if you have been shooting slides previously
and if you know photography.

That said, you must nail the exposure.
Previous Nikon dslr cameras let you get away with a lot of slop.

You must really experiment to find the best settings.

Now when I come back from shooting, I get great satisfaction in
knowing
that I have nailed the exposure.

It took experimenting the same way shooting slides did.
At times I will shoot raw when I am stumped, so I can correct in NC.

So folks spend some time experimenting and learn phography.
Your life will be more meaningfull if you do.

At present I shoot with D100, D1H, D1X, D2H, Coolpix 950 and 995
as well as F100 and F5.

I will be getting one of the first D2X's from my dealer. Why?
Well I like to shoot birds and many shots need 50% or more cropping.

Noise- well experiment- say be more tolerant ofhighlights, push the
histogram to the right, and increase the EV to 1 or more.
Expriment until you get the proper settings for the scene.
Then try another scene.
Spend time and take notes.

Birger

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Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

D2H is a fine camera, does many things as well as or better than other cameras. But does some things worse; in particular, even at its best, there are situations in which even an expert can't coax a picture out of it that is the equal "noisewise" to what you can get from others (e.g. Fuji S2, Canon 20D-MkII). The data is there. Insisting that the D2H is the only camera you'd need because a truly skilled, pro photographer can make it the equal of any other camera in all situations is foolish and is often said just to make the owner of the camera feel good about herself.

But I think the point of many in this thread is that just because something is true it doesn't always make sense to create a thread about it and whine on and on. You can read about the problem in numerous other threads and if you're REALLY a pro you'd be interested in making the most of the D2H (which is what pros do or they shut up and switch cameras) and you'd post an example or two and ask for specific advice.

=NLK=

Paul Johnson said:

Here is a thorough test of it that has been out for a long long time:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond2h/page19.asp

It's better than some, worse than others. It is what it is.

And there is no noise "problem" because it's always had the same
amount of it.

Paul

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