Has Nikon Lost it?

[David (r00t)]

The output is more alike than different. The detail is about the same. The dynamic range is much better with the Canon, but the colors come out a little deeper with the Nikon.

The Canon has the weird moire' thing going on, but the D100 is noisier at 200 than the Canon at 200.

Run them through Neat Image and noise is now silky smooth. Also the crop factor is 1.3x on the 1D so for wider shots the 1D wins, for no moire or banding at high ISO, the D100 wins, for sports action, the 1D wins, on and on and on...

I still have both and am keeping both. I do not like the 10D at all. I have printed 8x10's from both cameras and my clients liked both of them. There was no preference between the output.

I plan to mount my 50mm's on there and compare them both side by side.

You are never really leaving, you are into this Nikon stuff more
than any anyone else here. You are often looking to shock the forum
as you are attacked sometimes as well as it is plenty fun.

You seem to put your success in the hands of the equipment which in
IMO a beginner's mistake, we have seen your photos and we know it
is the photographer that makes the difference in the end.

Again, I'dd challenge you to a friendly match against the 1D you
actually own vs my poor little toy D-100 just to see which image
comes better at the end ...

Not, it is my birthday today, find the budget with the papers and
fly me to your country so we can hve a beer or to and shoot some
pictures with our toys ...

Have a good day Gerard.

--
Yves P.
PBASE Supporter

Some pictures I like:
http://www.pbase.com/yp8/root

--
David

My fun galleries:
http://www.imagestation.com/member/?name=r00t&c=201

My side job:
http://www.davidsavkovic.com

 

[Gwenael]

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

Jim you are THE specialist we need to interpret the evolution of the market ....... even if this forum is not design for......

 

[PerL]

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders.

Both brands follow and lead at different times and in different
areas. Canon are leading at present in some areas, but that's not
the end of the world for you Nikon folk (Try to find a decent
wide-angle lens for a 1D/10D!). I seriously considered switching to
Nikon in 2000, to get my hands on a D1 when Canon had nothing like
it. If you switch brands every time something new comes out then
you will go bankrupt!

Prime lens prices are astronmical.

Prime lens prices are astronomical for any major brand. If you want
pro glass, you have to pay pro prices. Take it or leave it.

the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D.

Doesn't seem to be rushed to me, but I haven't looked at one yet,
let alone touched it. The D70 is a prime example of the lead
changing I mentioned above. It PULVERIZES the 300D for specs, but
if I had a 300D and a big collection of Canon glass I wouldn't be
jumping ship for it. Why? because sooner or later Canon will
release a better camera. Then Nikon will release a better
camera...... ad-infinitem. You change for a system, not a single
body. Both systems have strong plus and minus. Pick the one that
suits you.

But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal).

So what? Are you in the market for a $8000 body? Canon have sold a
dismally low number of 1Ds bodies. I have used Canon digital bodies
since 2001, and I have never NEEDED an FF body. The sole advantage
(currently) is for wide angle, and at least at present Nikon has
that covered with DX lenses. Perhaps in future FF will be needed to
solve noise with increased pixel densities but at the moment this
is not an issue. FF also has some disadvantages especially when
shooting with a telephoto. I sometimes wish my 1D was 'only' 1.5x!

Besides, if you NEED a Nikon FF then you could always get a Kodak.

Bottom line:

Stop complaining and take pictures. Digital cameras are like
computers: If you keep waiting for the 'next new thing' then you
will never buy anything. The current DSLRs from (almost) any
manufacturer are probably better that you can use anyway (no insult
intended) so there is no reason not to buy one. No matter what
major brand you choose, there will always be an upgrade path.

--
http://www.pbase.com/interactive

 

[frankh138191]

Let me give a real world example of a friend of mine. He was
relating a story of a $8000USD stock-photo sale he lost, because
the Digital image that the buyer liked wasn't high Rez enough. And
then the stock agency came back to him and said that future
submissions should be shot with a Canon 1Ds!!!!! The agency
happly accepted D1x shots in the past, but now they think they are
not good enough to be competitive in the market. Now he has to
decide if he should buy the lower featured Kodak SLRn, wait for
Nikon in the hope that they come out with something competitive, or
switch to Canon.

Ouch 8,000 too bad. he can also find another agency. there sre still enough photobuyers who don't need medium format size resolution. . a freind of mine has many images from the S2 and d1x in a library and does verrywell. not his primarry income but has scored some large somes. 6mp not obsolete yet. isaid yet.

The world isn't just made up of photo-journalists and serious
ameraturs who can be satified with "good-enough", or wait for it to
be so. In various Pro markets, some "savy" clients are demanding a
high level of proformance from us, and if we can't deliver, we
won't be competing.

------Joseph

--
Craig H. north jersey
http://www.pbase.com/craigh

 

[Backdoctor]

Michael

--
Harris

PBase/DPReview/NTF supporter

http://www.pbase.com/backdoctor

 

[Tom Obszanski50651]

Given the subject area, shouldn't we update this from "The grass is always greener" to "The glass is always cleaner on the other side?"

Really, what this all boils down to is choices. We live in an era of rapidly changing digital camera technology, there is no single right choice for every user, just as there is no one car that is right for everybody's needs. Get the camera which meets your needs, whether that's a Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, Sigma, Konica-Minolta, or whatever.

Tom

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

--
Escaping (from CT)

 

[Backdoctor]

While I am not a fan of this type of post, this answer is a bit too personal. I do understand Jim's frustration to some extent, but I never really care what the other guy has. All I care about is knowing how to use what I have.

I also do not believe that Jim is jumping ship, just venting his frustration. Henry, I also feel for your frustration at seeing another post complaining about nikon. Hope we dont devolve to the Canon forum type of fighting among ourselves.

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

--
Harris

PBase/DPReview/NTF supporter

http://www.pbase.com/backdoctor

 

[Tony Donaldson146615]

...isn't interesting enough to read

 

[Jim Nicholls]

So far I have been called uninformed, insecure, a troll, and worst of all accused of having pimples (how did they know?) and all I want is some more initiative and a full frame camera from Nikon that will realise the absolute potential of my exisiting Nikon lenses. I dont want to buy Canon, although if I was starting new I think I probably would at the moment, (and that thought hurts as a Nikon user). I want to make full use of my exisiting gear and not have to purchase more lenses to compensate for the smaller format, lower res systems that will inevitably be replaced with FF gear anyway.

All we need is for Canon to come out with a full frame version of the 300D and Nikon's will be further behind. After Canons recent track record it could happen!

Ask yourselves in all honesty if you were starting afresh, would you really buy Nikon over Canon at the moment?

The answer to that question will determine if you agree with me or not.

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

 

[Stephen Simpson127975]

Ask yourselves in all honesty if you were starting afresh, would
you really buy Nikon over Canon at the moment?

...because I am after the best entry-level DSLR I can obtain, and everything about the D70 says that this is the right camera to go for.

Now, if we are talking about going "up-market" then that is a different subject: one which I will leave to those far more qualified than me to discuss. However, it is not right to generalize and tar the entire Nikon product line with the same brush; they are about to become "the leader" in the most commercially important sector of the DSLR market.

--Stephen Simpson

 

[frankh138191]

What does it matter if people agree with you or not?

All we need is for Canon to come out with a full frame version of
the 300D and Nikon's will be further behind. After Canons recent
track record it could happen!

Ask yourselves in all honesty if you were starting afresh, would
you really buy Nikon over Canon at the moment?

The answer to that question will determine if you agree with me or
not.

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

--
Craig H. north jersey
http://www.pbase.com/craigh

 

[tylerphoto]

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

--
CQ

 

[Walter Freiberger]

....are more than Canon's hole DSLR production.

BTW the 1DS is produced at 2000 units a months.

Walter

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

 

[Man-Fai Wong]

So far I have been called uninformed, insecure, a troll, and worst
of all accused of having pimples (how did they know?)

Well, you do seem less than well-informed. And it's not at all hard to understand why some will assume you're a troll either. Don't be so naive (or pretend to be such).

and all I
want is some more initiative and a full frame camera from Nikon
that will realise the absolute potential of my exisiting Nikon
lenses. I dont want to buy Canon, although if I was starting new I
think I probably would at the moment, (and that thought hurts as a
Nikon user). I want to make full use of my exisiting gear and not
have to purchase more lenses to compensate for the smaller format,
lower res systems that will inevitably be replaced with FF gear
anyway.

So are you saying you're willing to plunk down $8K immediately if Nikon came out w/ a FF body?

If there's real demand for it, then I'm sure Nikon will pursue it. But right now, there's plenty of other areas for them to attend to me thinks. And the entry level is apparently one such.

Again, if you want to use your glass for FF use, you can go w/ Kodak right now while you wait for Nikon to eventually give you what you want.

All we need is for Canon to come out with a full frame version of
the 300D and Nikon's will be further behind. After Canons recent
track record it could happen!

That's a laugh. Their most recent track record is the 1DMk2 at 1.3x crop -- same as the previous 1D. How can you expect anyone to take your beef seriously when you make such statements?

Ask yourselves in all honesty if you were starting afresh, would
you really buy Nikon over Canon at the moment?

I am starting afresh w/ no investment in glass -- though I actually own a Canon ETTL speedlight -- and the D70 looks quite good to me, 1.5x crop and all. Of course, I'm just an amateur, but plenty of pros don't use a 1Ds or the Kodak FF body either.

The tech is still advancing at a rapid pace. Why not just take a small dip into digital now and get the D70 for starters and then upgrade to whatever eventual Nikon body you feel will more fully utilize your gear? Why knock it before even giving it a try, if you're really sincere?

GoTheCanon is quite right. The D70 is quite affordable now, so take the dip and start shooting, instead of wasting time complaining about something so remote as a Nikon FF offering. Even if you had Canon glass and went w/ the 1Ds, you will likely want to upgrade from that body too a few years from now, if not sooner.

The answer to that question will determine if you agree with me or
not.

Obviously not. I'm eagerly waiting for the D70 so I can stop spending so much time in these debate threads and go out shooting -- well, would be nice to have milder weather and more daylight out too.

Anyway, this is it for me on this useless thread.

Man

--
Just another amateur -- see profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

 

[Jim Nicholls]

Thanks Steven, and for your previous reply. I do appreciate your reasoning and goodwill.

I understand your point, we are in different parts of the market. Perhaps my vision is too limited as I am surprised more people don't agree with me. I look forward to Nikons resurgence with the D70 and hope they can beat Canon with a FF version.

Jim

Ask yourselves in all honesty if you were starting afresh, would
you really buy Nikon over Canon at the moment?

...because I am after the best entry-level DSLR I can obtain, and
everything about the D70 says that this is the right camera to go
for.

Now, if we are talking about going "up-market" then that is a
different subject: one which I will leave to those far more
qualified than me to discuss. However, it is not right to
generalize and tar the entire Nikon product line with the same
brush; they are about to become "the leader" in the most
commercially important sector of the DSLR market.

--Stephen Simpson

 

[PicOne]

so I take it that the consensus is that most of you folks believe Nikon's future is servicing the hobbyists and amateurs with the likes of the D70? Wow... I wouldn't have thought a couple of years ago that this would end up being the path Nikon would choose.

So much complacency and defensiveness of what Nikon currently offers in most of the above posts, it really is no wonder that they haven't felt spurred to release anything of real note for the professional in a couple years. With so many staunch defenders along the lines of "the D1X does everything I need it to", why would they ever bother to come out with something better?

BTW the 1DS is produced at 2000 units a months.

Walter

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

 

[Larry Gleason]

I don't think that is the consensus. There is an excessive amount of excited chatter over the D70 and it looks like it will be a nice camera. What does seem to be overlooked is that it is still an entry level DSLR. Read enough threads and there is a prevailing theme of cost over substance. That is, most want to justify their purchase since they don't have deep pockets. Understandable economics for sure.

I am one that has stated that my D1X does everything that I need it to (not on this stupid thread). But not in the context that you imply. I look forward to a D2X but my D1X has not died all of a sudden because newer models from the different companies have been released. It is still a fantastic model and will serve me well until such time that I upgrade on my time schedule (then it will be still in use with a different lens as a backup).

So much complacency and defensiveness of what Nikon currently
offers in most of the above posts, it really is no wonder that they
haven't felt spurred to release anything of real note for the
professional in a couple years. With so many staunch defenders
along the lines of "the D1X does everything I need it to", why
would they ever bother to come out with something better?

BTW the 1DS is produced at 2000 units a months.

Walter

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

--
Larry Gleason

 

[Jamie Benaud]

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders.

Both brands follow and lead at different times and in different
areas. Canon are leading at present in some areas, but that's not
the end of the world for you Nikon folk (Try to find a decent
wide-angle lens for a 1D/10D!). I seriously considered switching to
Nikon in 2000, to get my hands on a D1 when Canon had nothing like
it. If you switch brands every time something new comes out then
you will go bankrupt!

Prime lens prices are astronmical.

Prime lens prices are astronomical for any major brand. If you want
pro glass, you have to pay pro prices. Take it or leave it.

the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D.

Doesn't seem to be rushed to me, but I haven't looked at one yet,
let alone touched it. The D70 is a prime example of the lead
changing I mentioned above. It PULVERIZES the 300D for specs, but
if I had a 300D and a big collection of Canon glass I wouldn't be
jumping ship for it. Why? because sooner or later Canon will
release a better camera. Then Nikon will release a better
camera...... ad-infinitem. You change for a system, not a single
body. Both systems have strong plus and minus. Pick the one that
suits you.

But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal).

So what? Are you in the market for a $8000 body? Canon have sold a
dismally low number of 1Ds bodies. I have used Canon digital bodies
since 2001, and I have never NEEDED an FF body. The sole advantage
(currently) is for wide angle, and at least at present Nikon has
that covered with DX lenses. Perhaps in future FF will be needed to
solve noise with increased pixel densities but at the moment this
is not an issue. FF also has some disadvantages especially when
shooting with a telephoto. I sometimes wish my 1D was 'only' 1.5x!

Besides, if you NEED a Nikon FF then you could always get a Kodak.

Bottom line:

Stop complaining and take pictures. Digital cameras are like
computers: If you keep waiting for the 'next new thing' then you
will never buy anything. The current DSLRs from (almost) any
manufacturer are probably better that you can use anyway (no insult
intended) so there is no reason not to buy one. No matter what
major brand you choose, there will always be an upgrade path.

--
Jamie

http://homepage.mac.com/sitehost/penrithfire

 

[CCarroll]

• Why do you think you need a full frame DSLR?
• If you only want to get a full frame DSLR to use with your existing lenses, why does it matter how expensive Nikon's new lenses are?
• If the Canon is really so much greater than the Nikon, why not just sell your Nikon lenses and buy a Canon system?

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders.Promised
lenses have been delayed.

such as?

How about this little beauty: 17-55 Nikon AF-S lens, announced mid
last year, still waiting....

Prime lens prices are astronmical.

No more than Canon.

The above lens will be around $1500 US. It may be great glass, but
look at the price!!!!

the D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D.

I diont accept this. Given how good the specs of the D70 are, I
cant see how that qualifies as a rushed product.

Would Nikon have bothered with the D70 if not for the Canon D300.
While the specs are good, are Nikon bringing this to market because
they wanted too or had too? Canon seems to have dragged them,
kicking and screaming into this segment through initiative. Thats
what I want too see from Nikon, initiative not just reaction.

But worst of all, they still don't have a full frame DSLR (this is almost > commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

I would have thought it is simply good business myself. Kodak
already have a full frame Nikon solution, and given the availablity
of Nikkor lenses in the 12-24 range for there 1.5x crop cameraes,
(unlike Canon, who are relying on Sigma to cover that range) whst
is the incentive for FF anyway? Nikon, it seems to me, have at
least decided to go with the 1.5x crop, while Canon appear to be
undecided as to what to do.

It's true, Nikon have embraced the 1.5 crop cameras, but full frame
will yield better image quality and isnt that what Nikon have
always said they produce? Sharper, clearer, better pictures? If
it's about quality then Canon have proven they have more
dediication to quality using this criteria.

If the next Koday 14 DSLR really has an improved sensor, Nikon may
see alot of their DSLR market evaporate. Then if Nikon run true to
form we may see a full frame DSLR then.

Why don't I buy a Canon..... cause I've got a great range of Nikon
lenses from my F4's. I just need a great DSLR to put them on.

Jim

--
http://www.pbase.com/timothyo

 

[PicOne]

Well spoken Larry. I just thought it a little tiring to see so many posts along the lines that 'Nikon has given me everything I've ever needed'.

The Canonites are a little to far along on the opposite end of the spectrum.. ie. a great camera seems to be introduced (eg. IdII) but they still have will say 'oh well, I guess it'll do, but I really wish it had xxxx'. However, the "never being pleased" mindframe does seem to spur Canon to keep trying.

I am one that has stated that my D1X does everything that I need it
to (not on this stupid thread). But not in the context that you
imply. I look forward to a D2X but my D1X has not died all of a
sudden because newer models from the different companies have been
released. It is still a fantastic model and will serve me well
until such time that I upgrade on my time schedule (then it will be
still in use with a different lens as a backup).

So much complacency and defensiveness of what Nikon currently
offers in most of the above posts, it really is no wonder that they
haven't felt spurred to release anything of real note for the
professional in a couple years. With so many staunch defenders
along the lines of "the D1X does everything I need it to", why
would they ever bother to come out with something better?

BTW the 1DS is produced at 2000 units a months.

Walter

Nikon seem to have become followers and not leaders. Promised
lenses have been delayed. Prime lens prices are astronmical. the
D70 (when it appears) seems to have been rushed out as a reaction
to the Canon 300D. But worst of all, they still don't have a full
frame DSLR (this is almost commercially criminal). Nikon, when are
you going to get your act together?

Jim

--
Larry Gleason