Focus issue - any thoughts as to the problem?

[R2D2]

I'm not dismissing anything, though, it'll all help learning, and I suspect there could be a number of things going on including operator error.

Some of these are general questions/ recommendations and may not be specific to the current image issues...

What focusing Mode (and Method) was being used? Animal Eye Detect? Single AF Point? Spot AF? What is your "Initial AF" setting? Back button AF? Are there multiple back buttons being utilized for AF?

You might try modifying your Case 2 settings a little to see what effect that might have (I'm not sure how the R10 handles these). Change Tracking Sensitivity to -2 (all the way left). Maybe set "Accel/Decel Tracking" to +1. Set the AI Servo "First Image Priority" to "Focus Priority."

I like using an ES burst framerate of 20 fps. This also provides some degree of "image stabilization" as there is always one frame that is sharper than the others. I call it "Poor Man's Image Stabilization!"

For perched birds a shutter speed of 1/1000 is my default (you can work your way slower as (low)light demands and conditions allow). BIFs I shoot at 1/3200 - 1/4000. DxO Photolab really helps to reduce noise.

Full Manual exposure (or at least adequate Exp Comp) can help to prevent underexposure in backlit situations, which are known to cause focusing errors. For now, keeping the sun on the subject will improve AF (and improve IQ too). When lacking sufficient subject detail in backlit situations, the AF will often focus on the brighter outline of the subject, leading to back-focus. Or it will look elsewhere entirely (like branches, or water) for a better AF target.

Sometimes focus can just look "wrong." Pump the focusing button to restart the process over. (I actually do this a number of times during the same sequence).

Getting as many of these factors and settings to work in your favor will produce the best results. Strive for the perfect setup, and only grudgingly bend when needed. Best of luck to you and yours!

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

 

[MAC]

I'm not dismissing anything, though, it'll all help learning, and I suspect there could be a number of things going on including operator error.

Some of these are general questions/ recommendations and may not be specific to the current image issues...

What focusing Mode (and Method) was being used? Animal Eye Detect? Single AF Point? Spot AF? What is your "Initial AF" setting? Back button AF? Are there multiple back buttons being utilized for AF?

You might try modifying your Case 2 settings a little to see what effect that might have (I'm not sure how the R10 handles these). Change Tracking Sensitivity to -2 (all the way left). Maybe set "Accel/Decel Tracking" to +1. Set the AI Servo "First Image Priority" to "Focus Priority."

I like using an ES burst framerate of 20 fps. This also provides some degree of "image stabilization" as there is always one frame that is sharper than the others. I call it "Poor Man's Image Stabilization!"

For perched birds a shutter speed of 1/1000 is my default (you can work your way slower as (low)light demands and conditions allow). BIFs I shoot at 1/3200 - 1/4000. DxO Photolab really helps to reduce noise.

Full Manual exposure (or at least adequate Exp Comp) can help to prevent underexposure in backlit situations, which are known to cause focusing errors. For now, keeping the sun on the subject will improve AF (and improve IQ too). When lacking sufficient subject detail in backlit situations, the AF will often focus on the brighter outline of the subject, leading to back-focus. Or it will look elsewhere entirely (like branches, or water) for a better AF target.

Sometimes focus can just look "wrong." Pump the focusing button to restart the process over. (I actually do this a number of times during the same sequence).

Getting as many of these factors and settings to work in your favor will produce the best results. Strive for the perfect setup, and only grudgingly bend when needed. Best of luck to you and yours!

R2

great advice R2! Bookmarked!

 

[Addlepate]

Hello R2, thanks, much appreciated as are everyone's comments.

Major crops and a high amount of noise (esp when the two are combined) can certainly degrade the output, but you can still tell if the image is sharp to begin with. That's not what is happening here though.

I think this was my feeling as well. >

You're not running into diffraction softening to any great extent here (esp not in the follow-up samples you posted) ... Diffraction is not to blame for the poor quality in the photo you posted in your OP!

Thanks. What leads you to that conclusion? (not challenging, I'd just like to know the whys and the wherefores for my own understanding) >

Right. Don't use the filter unless the conditions warrant it.

I've done some filter on and off tests (more below). I am not sure the filter is having a major effect, in test conditions at least, but I could see that the filter could add to problems in difficult conditions? >

Atmospherics are insidious! There are many different causes. Be aware of anything that might cause a temperature (air density) differential.

I'm becoming more aware of this thanks to these discussions. I;m certainly leaning toward atmospherics as a contributing factor for poor images at this location.

R2D2, post: 68429389, member: 123120"]
Some of these are general questions/ recommendations and may not be specific to the current image issues...

Understood.

What focusing Mode (and Method) was being used? Animal Eye Detect? Single AF Point? Spot AF? What is your "Initial AF" setting? Back button AF? Are there multiple back buttons being utilized for AF?

Animal detect, eye detect, various AF points from 'spot' to 'around' depending on circumstances. Not sure I understand what you mean by 'initial AF setting'.

AF on trigger half press; we haven't got into back button AF though I;m aware a lot of people use it. Part of this is trying to avoid giving partner too much to worry about at once.

You might try modifying your Case 2 settings a little ...

I like using an ES burst framerate of 20 fps ...

For perched birds a shutter speed of 1/1000 is my default (you can work your way slower as (low)light demands and conditions allow). BIFs I shoot at 1/3200 - 1/4000. DxO Photolab really helps to reduce noise.

I think the OP shot is 1/800. I hadn;t thought of 1/1000 as necessary for fairly static subjects though have encouraged partner to push the shutter speed higher for some as some as many animals, birds particularly, can be very twitchy and aren't as static as they seem!

We have shied away from speeds as high as 1/3200 + so far, mainly I suppose because of noise; we've been around 1/2500 with occasional excursions higher in very good light. I also like to have some sense of movement rather than freezing everything, akin to aircraft photographers making sure they get prop blur.

Full Manual exposure (or at least adequate Exp Comp) can help to prevent underexposure in backlit situations, which are known to cause focusing errors.

At the moment I think we both need a level of automation - back to 'too much to think about' again!

For now, keeping the sun on the subject will improve AF (and improve IQ too). When lacking sufficient subject detail in backlit situations, the AF will often focus on the brighter outline of the subject, leading to back-focus. Or it will look elsewhere entirely (like branches, or water) for a better AF target.

I think there is likely a lot in this for some of our poor images, though in the OP and others, it wasn't that the camera had picked something else; nothing was right.

Sometimes focus can just look "wrong." Pump the focusing button to restart the process over. (I actually do this a number of times during the same sequence).

Yes, I have done this at times. I was photographing a butterfly the other day where I repeated focus to get the head and eyes sharp. Partner tends to get excited and just snap away, and I need to get her to make haste slowly!

Getting as many of these factors and settings to work in your favor will produce the best results. Strive for the perfect setup, and only grudgingly bend when needed. Best of luck to you and yours!

Thanks. There is a lot of discussion here but it is all about learning and kicking ideas about, which is useful to me and I hope to others reading. This is one reason I prefer 'because' rather than just 'do this' - it's better for understanding and applying to other situations.

I took some test shots yesterday, mainly filter on and off. I think they show that the combo is capable of sharpness and filter is not a critical issue per se in ideal conditions, though I could see that filter plus other issues could be a problem.

These were taken in good light, outdoors, at a range of 30 feet or so, focused on Her Maj's face using spot focus, no detection, F8 at 100 ISO, camera on a bean bag on a table, ES, 10 second shutter delay.


With filter


Without filter

[/QUOTE]

 

[Victor Engel]

Thanks for the additional info. It all helps.

Problem is we can’t see what else was within the frame when you shot the image .For all we know there might have been something outside of the crop you’ve show that the camera might have locked onto instead of the bird . It may not need deep analysis but an idea of what was actually there might help remove some of the guesswork .

Yes, understood and agreed; it was just that the earlier posts seemed base on a different argument, excessive noise or abberations due to a tight crop, which I was less convinced about.

Major crops and a high amount of noise (esp when the two are combined) can certainly degrade the output, but you can still tell if the image is sharp to begin with. That's not what is happening here though.

A couple things to try:

1. Use electronic shutter (ES).
It sounds counterintuitive, but I consistently see AFMA-like issues on all my Canons that aren’t shooting with ES ... though you do have to watch out for rolling-shutter artifacts.

Thanks, that's interesting. We have been trying EFCS rather than ES, which we'd been using previously, due to a a lot of issues with rolling shutter on moving targets, particularly birds in flight.

A tough choice indeed! ES will be good for stills, but not so good once the bird takes to flight.

Keep in mind that you only get the full benefits of EFCS for the first frame of a burst. For subsequent shots, the (second curtain) shutter will bounce and the shutter motor has to wind for the next frame. Both can cause vibration. Use ES whenever possible.

The stated benefit, eliminating the rolling shutter issue with ES is not limited to the first frame. Any blurring from the shutter mechanism likely would be parallel to the motion of the shutter so should be easy to spot in images (small linear blurring vs. nondirectional blurring as shown in the original post image).

I know it was stated that the original image was not processed but just cropped from the original CR3. That's actually not possible. It has to be processed if the original was a CR3 file. To my eye, it looks like there was either a liberal amount of noise suppression applied or compression when converting to jpeg. The noise does not look natural.

 

[R2D2]

Thanks for the additional info. It all helps.

Problem is we can’t see what else was within the frame when you shot the image .For all we know there might have been something outside of the crop you’ve show that the camera might have locked onto instead of the bird . It may not need deep analysis but an idea of what was actually there might help remove some of the guesswork .

Yes, understood and agreed; it was just that the earlier posts seemed base on a different argument, excessive noise or abberations due to a tight crop, which I was less convinced about.

Major crops and a high amount of noise (esp when the two are combined) can certainly degrade the output, but you can still tell if the image is sharp to begin with. That's not what is happening here though.

A couple things to try:

1. Use electronic shutter (ES).
It sounds counterintuitive, but I consistently see AFMA-like issues on all my Canons that aren’t shooting with ES ... though you do have to watch out for rolling-shutter artifacts.

Thanks, that's interesting. We have been trying EFCS rather than ES, which we'd been using previously, due to a a lot of issues with rolling shutter on moving targets, particularly birds in flight.

A tough choice indeed! ES will be good for stills, but not so good once the bird takes to flight.

Keep in mind that you only get the full benefits of EFCS for the first frame of a burst. For subsequent shots, the (second curtain) shutter will bounce and the shutter motor has to wind for the next frame. Both can cause vibration. Use ES whenever possible.

The stated benefit, eliminating the rolling shutter issue with ES is not limited to the first frame. Any blurring from the shutter mechanism likely would be parallel to the motion of the shutter so should be easy to spot in images (small linear blurring vs. nondirectional blurring as shown in the original post image).

I know it was stated that the original image was not processed but just cropped from the original CR3. That's actually not possible. It has to be processed if the original was a CR3 file. To my eye, it looks like there was either a liberal amount of noise suppression applied or compression when converting to jpeg. The noise does not look natural.

I didn't state that the cause of the blur in the OP's sample was from EFCS. It was just part of the (long list of) general guidelines I gave to the OP.

R2

 

[Victor Engel]

Thanks for the additional info. It all helps.

Problem is we can’t see what else was within the frame when you shot the image .For all we know there might have been something outside of the crop you’ve show that the camera might have locked onto instead of the bird . It may not need deep analysis but an idea of what was actually there might help remove some of the guesswork .

Yes, understood and agreed; it was just that the earlier posts seemed base on a different argument, excessive noise or abberations due to a tight crop, which I was less convinced about.

Major crops and a high amount of noise (esp when the two are combined) can certainly degrade the output, but you can still tell if the image is sharp to begin with. That's not what is happening here though.

A couple things to try:

1. Use electronic shutter (ES).
It sounds counterintuitive, but I consistently see AFMA-like issues on all my Canons that aren’t shooting with ES ... though you do have to watch out for rolling-shutter artifacts.

Thanks, that's interesting. We have been trying EFCS rather than ES, which we'd been using previously, due to a a lot of issues with rolling shutter on moving targets, particularly birds in flight.

A tough choice indeed! ES will be good for stills, but not so good once the bird takes to flight.

Keep in mind that you only get the full benefits of EFCS for the first frame of a burst. For subsequent shots, the (second curtain) shutter will bounce and the shutter motor has to wind for the next frame. Both can cause vibration. Use ES whenever possible.

The stated benefit, eliminating the rolling shutter issue with ES is not limited to the first frame. Any blurring from the shutter mechanism likely would be parallel to the motion of the shutter so should be easy to spot in images (small linear blurring vs. nondirectional blurring as shown in the original post image).

I know it was stated that the original image was not processed but just cropped from the original CR3. That's actually not possible. It has to be processed if the original was a CR3 file. To my eye, it looks like there was either a liberal amount of noise suppression applied or compression when converting to jpeg. The noise does not look natural.

I didn't state that the cause of the blur in the OP's sample was from EFCS. It was just part of the (long list of) general guidelines I gave to the OP.

R2

Sure.

 

[Addlepate]

I know it was stated that the original image was not processed but just cropped from the original CR3. That's actually not possible. It has to be processed if the original was a CR3 file. To my eye, it looks like there was either a liberal amount of noise suppression applied or compression when converting to jpeg. The noise does not look natural.

Hello Victor, thanks

You're right, of course, it wouldn't be possible to post a CR3 crop; I was trying to emphasise that it hadn't been resized, or resampled other than any changes inherent in producing the JPG.

The JPG was exported from DPP4 and I'm fairly sure I would not have applied much if any compression or noise reduction, as it would be unusual for me to do so and I'd have worried about introducing misleading effects.

The CR3 exhibits similar issues (though I appreciate that might depend on the way the CR3 is displayed in DPP4 / Windows).

 

[R2D2]

Hello R2, thanks, much appreciated as are everyone's comments.

Major crops and a high amount of noise (esp when the two are combined) can certainly degrade the output, but you can still tell if the image is sharp to begin with. That's not what is happening here though.

I think this was my feeling as well. >

You're not running into diffraction softening to any great extent here (esp not in the follow-up samples you posted) ... Diffraction is not to blame for the poor quality in the photo you posted in your OP!

Thanks. What leads you to that conclusion? (not challenging, I'd just like to know the whys and the wherefores for my own understanding) >

See the image I posted in my previous post ;-) (it doesn't show any major effects of diffraction, even at f/16).

Right. Don't use the filter unless the conditions warrant it.

I've done some filter on and off tests (more below). I am not sure the filter is having a major effect, in test conditions at least, but I could see that the filter could add to problems in difficult conditions? >

Everybody tests in ideal conditions (which aren't present in nature). A much more telling test would be to shoot into significant backlighting or towards the sun. My recommendation is to only use filters when conditions warrant.

Atmospherics are insidious! There are many different causes. Be aware of anything that might cause a temperature (air density) differential.

I'm becoming more aware of this thanks to these discussions. I;m certainly leaning toward atmospherics as a contributing factor for poor images at this location.

They're bad bad bad. Like I said, I've had entire shoots ruined by diffraction.

R2D2, post: 68431821, member: 2215894"]
Some of these are general questions/ recommendations and may not be specific to the current image issues...

Understood.

What focusing Mode (and Method) was being used? Animal Eye Detect? Single AF Point? Spot AF? What is your "Initial AF" setting? Back button AF? Are there multiple back buttons being utilized for AF?

Animal detect, eye detect, various AF points from 'spot' to 'around' depending on circumstances.

Hmmm. I don't think I was reading any of that from the EXIF.

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'initial AF setting'.

As I don't have the R10, I'm not sure exactly what items are in the menu. Usually there is a programming item asking what AF Method is to be used for the initial Face Detect search.

AF on trigger half press; we haven't got into back button AF though I;m aware a lot of people use it. Part of this is trying to avoid giving partner too much to worry about at once.

Shutter AF can be the fastest and simplest. BBAF does give you the option to assign another button specifically for your choice (of Spot, Single, Zone, etc). IME having Spot immediately available (on a back button) is a life saver.

You might try modifying your Case 2 settings a little ...

I like using an ES burst framerate of 20 fps ...

For perched birds a shutter speed of 1/1000 is my default (you can work your way slower as (low)light demands and conditions allow). BIFs I shoot at 1/3200 - 1/4000. DxO Photolab really helps to reduce noise.

I think the OP shot is 1/800. I hadn;t thought of 1/1000 as necessary for fairly static subjects though have encouraged partner to push the shutter speed higher for some as some as many animals, birds particularly, can be very twitchy and aren't as static as they seem!

Birds and other animals can indeed freeze their motion perfectly. It can be hard to time this right though. And they can also move unexpectedly (in a flash). Fast shutter speeds (and burst shooting) can help to capture these fleeting moments.

Furthermore often these moments turn out to be much more interesting than a static shot!

We have shied away from speeds as high as 1/3200 + so far, mainly I suppose because of noise; we've been around 1/2500 with occasional excursions higher in very good light.

Really good noise reduction can extend your shooting envelope significantly.

I also like to have some sense of movement rather than freezing everything

That gets really tricky. A slow enough shutter speed also means a very low keeper rate! Experiment to see what shutter speeds will still give you a perfectly sharp eye.

, akin to aircraft photographers making sure they get prop blur.

Interesting that you mention this. I'm working my way through the 20,000 frames I shot at an airshow this summer. I went for prop blur all the way!

Full Manual exposure (or at least adequate Exp Comp) can help to prevent underexposure in backlit situations, which are known to cause focusing errors.

At the moment I think we both need a level of automation - back to 'too much to think about' again!

The better your exposures are, the better the AF will be as well.

For now, keeping the sun on the subject will improve AF (and improve IQ too). When lacking sufficient subject detail in backlit situations, the AF will often focus on the brighter outline of the subject, leading to back-focus. Or it will look elsewhere entirely (like branches, or water) for a better AF target.

I think there is likely a lot in this for some of our poor images, though in the OP and others, it wasn't that the camera had picked something else; nothing was right.

Only you can best determine what was going on. It takes so much digging for others to get to the bottom of it (when we're not there beside you).

Sometimes focus can just look "wrong." Pump the focusing button to restart the process over. (I actually do this a number of times during the same sequence).

Yes, I have done this at times. I was photographing a butterfly the other day where I repeated focus to get the head and eyes sharp. Partner tends to get excited and just snap away, and I need to get her to make haste slowly!

Yes, I was out last week trying to capture the last butterflies of summer. They can be very tough to shoot! That super shallow DOF is very hard to work with.




.

Getting as many of these factors and settings to work in your favor will produce the best results. Strive for the perfect setup, and only grudgingly bend when needed. Best of luck to you and yours!

Thanks. There is a lot of discussion here but it is all about learning and kicking ideas about, which is useful to me and I hope to others reading. This is one reason I prefer 'because' rather than just 'do this' - it's better for understanding and applying to other situations.

Everyone develops their own techniques. My (ideal) suggestions are what I strive for. Yours will be a bit different.

I took some test shots yesterday, mainly filter on and off. I think they show that the combo is capable of sharpness and filter is not a critical issue per se in ideal conditions, though I could see that filter plus other issues could be a problem.

These were taken in good light, outdoors, at a range of 30 feet or so, focused on Her Maj's face using spot focus, no detection, F8 at 100 ISO, camera on a bean bag on a table, ES, 10 second shutter delay.


With filter


Without filter

It's good to do actual tests! I don't think there's a problem with your lens. I still think you were hit with some nasty atmospherics.

Good luck to you!

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

Galleries by Jekyll & Hyde

www.pbase.com

 

[Andy01]

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'initial AF setting'.

As I don't have the R10, I'm not sure exactly what items are in the menu. Usually there is a programming item asking what AF Method is to be used for the initial Face Detect search.
R2

R2, I have R10 and R8 and I don't recall seeing anything like this in any menus or either manual, but I am happy to be corrected.

I am not sure because I don't have any other R cameras, but I seem to recall reading here that the initial face detect search thing might be a R5 or R6 thing.

I would be curious if there was something like this with either R10 or R8 that might improve my AF (that I haven't seen yet), so if anyone else knows please chime in.

 

[J A C S]

I know it was stated that the original image was not processed but just cropped from the original CR3. That's actually not possible. It has to be processed if the original was a CR3 file. To my eye, it looks like there was either a liberal amount of noise suppression applied or compression when converting to jpeg. The noise does not look natural.

Hello Victor, thanks

You're right, of course, it wouldn't be possible to post a CR3 crop; I was trying to emphasise that it hadn't been resized, or resampled other than any changes inherent in producing the JPG.

The JPG was exported from DPP4 and I'm fairly sure I would not have applied much if any compression or noise reduction, as it would be unusual for me to do so and I'd have worried about introducing misleading effects.

The CR3 exhibits similar issues (though I appreciate that might depend on the way the CR3 is displayed in DPP4 / Windows).

Why don’t you post the whole picture? It would be easier to spot misfocus that way.

 

[Victor Engel]

Focus point is shown as being directly on the head of the bird.

I can't imagine either the camera or the subject moving much in this example, but in general, bear in mind that the indicated focus point refers to the area of the frame, not the subject. The subject could have changed between the time the focus point was selected and when the shutter was released. For fast moving and erratic subjects, this can lead to misleading focus point indications.

That said, cameras are getting so fast these days that this is probably not usually an issue.

 

[R2D2]

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'initial AF setting'.

As I don't have the R10, I'm not sure exactly what items are in the menu. Usually there is a programming item asking what AF Method is to be used for the initial Face Detect search.

R2

R2, I have R10 and R8 and I don't recall seeing anything like this in any menus or either manual, but I am happy to be corrected.

I am not sure because I don't have any other R cameras, but I seem to recall reading here that the initial face detect search thing might be a R5 or R6 thing.

I would be curious if there was something like this with either R10 or R8 that might improve my AF (that I haven't seen yet), so if anyone else knows please chime in.

I think you're right that it likely isn't a programming item in the R10. In the R5 it's in the AF menu as "Initial Servo AF pt for "face detect."

Thanks for looking!

R2

 

[Addlepate]

Focus point is shown as being directly on the head of the bird.

I can't imagine either the camera or the subject moving much in this example, but in general, bear in mind that the indicated focus point refers to the area of the frame, not the subject. The subject could have changed between the time the focus point was selected and when the shutter was released. For fast moving and erratic subjects, this can lead to misleading focus point indications.

That said, cameras are getting so fast these days that this is probably not usually an issue.

That is a good point. I don't think it's the case here, but I have seen other images, particularly with fast and possibly erratic movement, where the indicated focus point clearly isn't where focus was taken.

 

[Addlepate]

Why don’t you post the whole picture? It would be easier to spot misfocus that way.

I will - but at the moment I have a lot going on with work, family issues, elderly parent etc. and I'm working on an old laptop with limited access to our photo library (and no DPP4 / RAW editor), the current PC being in for repair, so I'm not always as on things (or able to reply here) as easily as I'd like.

 

[Addlepate]

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'initial AF setting'.

As I don't have the R10, I'm not sure exactly what items are in the menu. Usually there is a programming item asking what AF Method is to be used for the initial Face Detect search.

R2

R2, I have R10 and R8 and I don't recall seeing anything like this in any menus or either manual, but I am happy to be corrected.

I am not sure because I don't have any other R cameras, but I seem to recall reading here that the initial face detect search thing might be a R5 or R6 thing.

I would be curious if there was something like this with either R10 or R8 that might improve my AF (that I haven't seen yet), so if anyone else knows please chime in.

I think it must be an R5 / R6 thing, I've worked all through the R10 menus trying to familiarise and I haven't seen anything; though there's so much in there it would be easy to miss! I'll try to find time for another look.

 

[Addlepate]

Hello R2, thanks, much appreciated as are everyone's comments.

You're not running into diffraction softening to any great extent here (esp not in the follow-up samples you posted) ... Diffraction is not to blame for the poor quality in the photo you posted in your OP!

Thanks. What leads you to that conclusion? (not challenging, I'd just like to know the whys and the wherefores for my own understanding) >

See the image I posted in my previous post ;-) (it doesn't show any major effects of diffraction, even at f/16).

I had forgotten, and I can't access or post them now, but I did some tests at various apertures when it was raised elsewhere, and as I recall there was maybe slight softening at f16 - f22 but maybe came in at smaller apertures than that. Or I'm misremembering.

Right. Don't use the filter unless the conditions warrant it.

I've done some filter on and off tests (more below). I am not sure the filter is having a major effect, in test conditions at least, but I could see that the filter could add to problems in difficult conditions? >

Everybody tests in ideal conditions (which aren't present in nature). A much more telling test would be to shoot into significant backlighting or towards the sun. My recommendation is to only use filters when conditions warrant.

Interestingly I did do some of the £10 note shots (not the ones posted) in a dark-ish hallway and didn't have focus or sharpness issues. Long exposures obviously.

What focusing Mode (and Method) was being used? Animal Eye Detect? Single AF Point? Spot AF? What is your "Initial AF" setting? Back button AF? Are there multiple back buttons being utilized for AF?

Animal detect, eye detect, various AF points from 'spot' to 'around' depending on circumstances.

Hmmm. I don't think I was reading any of that from the EXIF.

I can only see it in the extended EXIF data in DPP4, and I am talking generally for this range of photos rather than this one specifically. I think I am right for this one, but I will check when able. That might not be until I get the PC with DPP4 back though - I can't load it on this old clunker.

Shutter AF can be the fastest and simplest. BBAF does give you the option to assign another button specifically for your choice (of Spot, Single, Zone, etc). IME having Spot immediately available (on a back button) is a life saver.

Need to get my head round these custom button settings.

You might try modifying your Case 2 settings a little ...

I like using an ES burst framerate of 20 fps ...

For perched birds a shutter speed of 1/1000 is my default (you can work your way slower as (low)light demands and conditions allow). BIFs I shoot at 1/3200 - 1/4000. DxO Photolab really helps to reduce noise.

I think the OP shot is 1/800. I hadn;t thought of 1/1000 as necessary for fairly static subjects though have encouraged partner to push the shutter speed higher for some as some as many animals, birds particularly, can be very twitchy and aren't as static as they seem!

Birds and other animals can indeed freeze their motion perfectly. It can be hard to time this right though. And they can also move unexpectedly (in a flash). Fast shutter speeds (and burst shooting) can help to capture these fleeting moments.

Furthermore often these moments turn out to be much more interesting than a static shot!

We have shied away from speeds as high as 1/3200 + so far, mainly I suppose because of noise; we've been around 1/2500 with occasional excursions higher in very good light.

Really good noise reduction can extend your shooting envelope significantly.

I keep looking at DXO but haven't gone for it yet. I don't find the noise reduction settings in DPP4 intuitive and can't get a good job out of it (but maybe just my inexperience). Will have to wait until I have a PC back that will run it though!

I also like to have some sense of movement rather than freezing everything

That gets really tricky. A slow enough shutter speed also means a very low keeper rate! Experiment to see what shutter speeds will still give you a perfectly sharp eye.

, akin to aircraft photographers making sure they get prop blur.

Interesting that you mention this. I'm working my way through the 20,000 frames I shot at an airshow this summer. I went for prop blur all the way!

Wow. We think if we go and shoot 400 frames each in a day we're going some!

Full Manual exposure (or at least adequate Exp Comp) can help to prevent underexposure in backlit situations, which are known to cause focusing errors.

At the moment I think we both need a level of automation - back to 'too much to think about' again!

The better your exposures are, the better the AF will be as well.

For now, keeping the sun on the subject will improve AF (and improve IQ too). When lacking sufficient subject detail in backlit situations, the AF will often focus on the brighter outline of the subject, leading to back-focus. Or it will look elsewhere entirely (like branches, or water) for a better AF target.

I think there is likely a lot in this for some of our poor images, though in the OP and others, it wasn't that the camera had picked something else; nothing was right.

Only you can best determine what was going on. It takes so much digging for others to get to the bottom of it (when we're not there beside you).

Understood. This is what's really good about this discussion and others, and everyone taking time to answer; it's pulling out a lot of wider information.

With the help of this discussion and some thinking I'm noticing a bit more what's going on and putting some thoughts together, still leaning to atmospherics.

Sometimes focus can just look "wrong." Pump the focusing button to restart the process over. (I actually do this a number of times during the same sequence).

Yes, I have done this at times. I was photographing a butterfly the other day where I repeated focus to get the head and eyes sharp. Partner tends to get excited and just snap away, and I need to get her to make haste slowly!

Yes, I was out last week trying to capture the last butterflies of summer. They can be very tough to shoot! That super shallow DOF is very hard to work with.


.

Agreed on the very shallow DOF, but that really is a nice shot; the colours all work really well together.

DPReview keeps showing me challenge photos that somehow seem relevant to the discussion.

Last week it was a bird flying low over grass to catch an insect. When you looked at it there was quite a lot technically wrong with the photo, but it was still a great photo, and useful to discuss with partner to show her not to be too hung up on technical details.

This week it's a little jumping spider; only a part of the spider is in the depth of field, but crucially it's the eyes and head, so emphasises them and to my mind makes a great photo.

Getting as many of these factors and settings to work in your favor will produce the best results. Strive for the perfect setup, and only grudgingly bend when needed. Best of luck to you and yours!

Thanks. There is a lot of discussion here but it is all about learning and kicking ideas about, which is useful to me and I hope to others reading. This is one reason I prefer 'because' rather than just 'do this' - it's better for understanding and applying to other situations.

Everyone develops their own techniques. My (ideal) suggestions are what I strive for. Yours will be a bit different.

Again, the usefulness of these discussions as it shows much better than reading articles what people are doing and where they're having problems and successes. All food for thought.

I took some test shots yesterday, mainly filter on and off. I think they show that the combo is capable of sharpness and filter is not a critical issue per se in ideal conditions, though I could see that filter plus other issues could be a problem.

These were taken in good light, outdoors, at a range of 30 feet or so, focused on Her Maj's face using spot focus, no detection, F8 at 100 ISO, camera on a bean bag on a table, ES, 10 second shutter delay.


With filter


Without filter

It's good to do actual tests! I don't think there's a problem with your lens. I still think you were hit with some nasty atmospherics.

The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to agree. I will, I think, post my thinking at some point.

Good luck to you!

R2

Thanks.

 

[R2D2]

Hello R2, thanks, much appreciated as are everyone's comments.

You're not running into diffraction softening to any great extent here (esp not in the follow-up samples you posted) ... Diffraction is not to blame for the poor quality in the photo you posted in your OP!

Thanks. What leads you to that conclusion? (not challenging, I'd just like to know the whys and the wherefores for my own understanding) >

See the image I posted in my previous post ;-) (it doesn't show any major effects of diffraction, even at f/16).

I had forgotten, and I can't access or post them now, but I did some tests at various apertures when it was raised elsewhere, and as I recall there was maybe slight softening at f16 - f22 but maybe came in at smaller apertures than that. Or I'm misremembering.

Yes, very slight. At least not enough for me to worry about @ f/16.

Right. Don't use the filter unless the conditions warrant it.

I've done some filter on and off tests (more below). I am not sure the filter is having a major effect, in test conditions at least, but I could see that the filter could add to problems in difficult conditions? >

Everybody tests in ideal conditions (which aren't present in nature). A much more telling test would be to shoot into significant backlighting or towards the sun. My recommendation is to only use filters when conditions warrant.

Interestingly I did do some of the £10 note shots (not the ones posted) in a dark-ish hallway and didn't have focus or sharpness issues. Long exposures obviously.

Not low light, backlight.

What focusing Mode (and Method) was being used? Animal Eye Detect? Single AF Point? Spot AF? What is your "Initial AF" setting? Back button AF? Are there multiple back buttons being utilized for AF?

Animal detect, eye detect, various AF points from 'spot' to 'around' depending on circumstances.

Hmmm. I don't think I was reading any of that from the EXIF.

I can only see it in the extended EXIF data in DPP4, and I am talking generally for this range of photos rather than this one specifically. I think I am right for this one, but I will check when able.

I just went through the EXIF again. This is what Exiftool read...


From the OP image.

That might not be until I get the PC with DPP4 back though - I can't load it on this old clunker.

Sorry to hear about your computer issues. I HATE that.

Shutter AF can be the fastest and simplest. BBAF does give you the option to assign another button specifically for your choice (of Spot, Single, Zone, etc). IME having Spot immediately available (on a back button) is a life saver.

Need to get my head round these custom button settings.

When selecting the function for BBAF be sure to press the "Info" button to access the various options.

This is from my R5ii (I list my BBAF programming), but the basics should be similar...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67953165

You might try modifying your Case 2 settings a little ...

I like using an ES burst framerate of 20 fps ...

For perched birds a shutter speed of 1/1000 is my default (you can work your way slower as (low)light demands and conditions allow). BIFs I shoot at 1/3200 - 1/4000. DxO Photolab really helps to reduce noise.

I think the OP shot is 1/800. I hadn;t thought of 1/1000 as necessary for fairly static subjects though have encouraged partner to push the shutter speed higher for some as some as many animals, birds particularly, can be very twitchy and aren't as static as they seem!

Birds and other animals can indeed freeze their motion perfectly. It can be hard to time this right though. And they can also move unexpectedly (in a flash). Fast shutter speeds (and burst shooting) can help to capture these fleeting moments.

Furthermore often these moments turn out to be much more interesting than a static shot!

We have shied away from speeds as high as 1/3200 + so far, mainly I suppose because of noise; we've been around 1/2500 with occasional excursions higher in very good light.

Really good noise reduction can extend your shooting envelope significantly.

I keep looking at DXO but haven't gone for it yet. I don't find the noise reduction settings in DPP4 intuitive and can't get a good job out of it (but maybe just my inexperience). Will have to wait until I have a PC back that will run it though!

Once you're back up and running give Photolab a free 1 month (full) trial. It's become as important an element in my kit as my lens and body are!

I also like to have some sense of movement rather than freezing everything

That gets really tricky. A slow enough shutter speed also means a very low keeper rate! Experiment to see what shutter speeds will still give you a perfectly sharp eye.

, akin to aircraft photographers making sure they get prop blur.

Interesting that you mention this. I'm working my way through the 20,000 frames I shot at an airshow this summer. I went for prop blur all the way!

Wow. We think if we go and shoot 400 frames each in a day we're going some!

I'm paying for it dearly now! ;-)

Full Manual exposure (or at least adequate Exp Comp) can help to prevent underexposure in backlit situations, which are known to cause focusing errors.

At the moment I think we both need a level of automation - back to 'too much to think about' again!

The better your exposures are, the better the AF will be as well.

For now, keeping the sun on the subject will improve AF (and improve IQ too). When lacking sufficient subject detail in backlit situations, the AF will often focus on the brighter outline of the subject, leading to back-focus. Or it will look elsewhere entirely (like branches, or water) for a better AF target.

I think there is likely a lot in this for some of our poor images, though in the OP and others, it wasn't that the camera had picked something else; nothing was right.

Only you can best determine what was going on. It takes so much digging for others to get to the bottom of it (when we're not there beside you).

Understood. This is what's really good about this discussion and others, and everyone taking time to answer; it's pulling out a lot of wider information.

With the help of this discussion and some thinking I'm noticing a bit more what's going on and putting some thoughts together

And the more contributors the better!

, still leaning to atmospherics.

Me too.

Sometimes focus can just look "wrong." Pump the focusing button to restart the process over. (I actually do this a number of times during the same sequence).

Yes, I have done this at times. I was photographing a butterfly the other day where I repeated focus to get the head and eyes sharp. Partner tends to get excited and just snap away, and I need to get her to make haste slowly!

Yes, I was out last week trying to capture the last butterflies of summer. They can be very tough to shoot! That super shallow DOF is very hard to work with.


.

Agreed on the very shallow DOF, but that really is a nice shot; the colours all work really well together.

Thanks! Not too many more opportunities like this left this season.

DPReview keeps showing me challenge photos that somehow seem relevant to the discussion.

Last week it was a bird flying low over grass to catch an insect.

When you looked at it there was quite a lot technically wrong with the photo, but it was still a great photo, and useful to discuss with partner to show her not to be too hung up on technical details.

This week it's a little jumping spider; only a part of the spider is in the depth of field, but crucially it's the eyes and head, so emphasises them and to my mind makes a great photo.

Yes, first get the shot, then learn to improve the shot!

Getting as many of these factors and settings to work in your favor will produce the best results. Strive for the perfect setup, and only grudgingly bend when needed. Best of luck to you and yours!

Thanks. There is a lot of discussion here but it is all about learning and kicking ideas about, which is useful to me and I hope to others reading. This is one reason I prefer 'because' rather than just 'do this' - it's better for understanding and applying to other situations.

Everyone develops their own techniques. My (ideal) suggestions are what I strive for. Yours will be a bit different.

Again, the usefulness of these discussions as it shows much better than reading articles what people are doing and where they're having problems and successes. All food for thought.

The back and forth really helps. I applaud you for including details (and samples, with EXIF).

I took some test shots yesterday, mainly filter on and off. I think they show that the combo is capable of sharpness and filter is not a critical issue per se in ideal conditions, though I could see that filter plus other issues could be a problem.

These were taken in good light, outdoors, at a range of 30 feet or so, focused on Her Maj's face using spot focus, no detection, F8 at 100 ISO, camera on a bean bag on a table, ES, 10 second shutter delay.


With filter


Without filter

It's good to do actual tests! I don't think there's a problem with your lens. I still think you were hit with some nasty atmospherics.

The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to agree. I will, I think, post my thinking at some point.

Good luck to you!

R2

Thanks.

The more experience you amass, the clearer things get (literally) in this case! :-D

Best of luck to you!

R2

ps. Here's another shot from the Little Blue Heron series...




Breakfast!




Now time to digest.



--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

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