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650D sensor 44% worse in low light than nikon d5200 (DxO)
- Thread starter Speedydom
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canuck dave
Senior Member
A camera is about so much more than its sensor! The sensor is the flavour of the day and will change with the next batch of entries from Canon and Nikon.
after reading your post of charts, some will conclude that the T4i is incapable of making pictures.
Canon cameras take a beating the way dxo measures.
but in real pictures, cameras like the 5d3 get wedding camera of the year even though its ratings are below nikons
knock yourself out with charts
J
j2l3m7
Guest
Thank you, MAC
John
John
I'm the happy owner of a 650D and pictures are greats but I'm looking forward to seing a "real world" comparaison of the two rivals.MAC wrote:
after reading your post of charts, some will conclude that the T4i is incapable of making pictures.
Canon cameras take a beating the way dxo measures.
but in real pictures, cameras like the 5d3 get wedding camera of the year even though its ratings are below nikons
knock yourself out with charts
DxO score is always bad for Canon (Nikon D5200 is the best APSc ever according to DxO) but pictures are not so differents (see result for the D3200).
I'm just wondering if Canon could make an improvement with a new firmware (maybe with the Files Patent [ No. 2013-12850 ]To Reduce Noise And Aliasing).
Waiting for the full DP review of the D5200 to see the real difference.
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as you get more experience you'll realize it is about:Speedydom wrote:
I'm the happy owner of a 650D and pictures are greats but I'm looking forward to seing a "real world" comparaison of the two rivals.MAC wrote:
after reading your post of charts, some will conclude that the T4i is incapable of making pictures.
Canon cameras take a beating the way dxo measures.
but in real pictures, cameras like the 5d3 get wedding camera of the year even though its ratings are below nikons
knock yourself out with charts
The Photographer, the light, the lenses, the processing and then a modern body
you have a modern body. And it sounds like you are happy with it. So on that end, unless you spend a bunch of money I don't think things are going to improve as much as they could by focusing in on the other 4 elements.
The best APS-c camera is and has been the 7d for its speed and feature set.
consider the following, some of the long timers know it:
The IQ is essentially the same between all of the following --the 60d (highest Canon APS-C rated at DXO); the 7d, the T2i, T3i and T4i) - all with the same generation of 18 mpxl sensor.
yet the feature sets become the selling points - and the 7d feature set made it the all time best so far APS-c for wildlife and sports in this APS-c class of camera
They don't do firmware updates like this - they'll fix errors and occasionally add features, but your T4i jpg engine is actually tuned very well - read The Digital Picture Site Review - you have pro IQ and some terrific features -- you just need to deploy the other 4 elements
no need to wait. I can see from dxo what they got. look at the chart below:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Ca...rand2)/Canon/(appareil3)/663|0/(brand3)/Canon
This is sony sensor giving about 1.5 stops worse noise than the 5d3, and about 1/2 stop better hi iso noise than the canon 18 mpxl crop sensors.
Also for landscape shooters they get a boost in dynamic range with the sony sensor.
if you know what to do in certain shooting situations, these are minor.
study how to ETTR - exposure to the right in raw --and then the nikon noise advantage means nothing in real picture taking.
use a tripod and your hdr and high tone priority features for more dynamic range with the canon to close the gap.
with people photography dynamic range is needed less since the trendy thing is to blow out backdrops with the less dynamic range 5d3 - wedding camera of the year
your 18-135 stm is good for video but there are a few top tier lenses for photos: the 15-85 IS and the 17-55 IS; sigma has the 17-50 os that is also considered top tier.
I've heard your 70 - 300 tamy is pretty nice, but it is considered 2nd tier also for photos, just as the 55-250 IS would be nice, but second tier.
The top tier lenses in this category would be 70-200 f4 ISL with 1.4 ext or the 70-300L
glass will mean more than chasing the nikon body you mention
processing will mean more
good light will mean more
and most of all the photographer will mean the most
good luck figuring out nikon glass and menus and colors
actually, if scapes and deep dof is your thing, the oly m4/3 is camera of the year for being light and powerful. but this is not an event shooting system soln.
the canon T4i is the lightweight dslr I was looking for in my event shooting where I carry three bodies
I have the lowepro 200AW slingshot btw and love it
best to you, hope you find what you are looking for, but I don't think you'll see visible improvement on the gear alone between the two
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I'm happy with my body (I'am not a pro) my priority is fast focusing and the 650D seem better
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-d5200-review-21020
The pictures i took last year of racing cars are good (fast focus with 18-135 stm)
I know the 18-135 or tamy 70-300 sp are not the best lenses but others are off budget.
Thanks for the replies, I have a lot to discover with the 650D (especally DOF, my previous camera was a pana fz38)
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-d5200-review-21020
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www.ephotozine.com
The pictures i took last year of racing cars are good (fast focus with 18-135 stm)
I know the 18-135 or tamy 70-300 sp are not the best lenses but others are off budget.
Thanks for the replies, I have a lot to discover with the 650D (especally DOF, my previous camera was a pana fz38)
It's quite possible, as the 650D has the same sensor as the 550D when it was released a few years ago. (Canon are due really for a sensor upgrade IMO). I don't believe firmware can make a difference. (And if it could, I'd expect it to have already been done in Magic Lantern 
)
However, in saying this - I do think we've gotten to a stage in technology where we can't really see much of the difference ourselves, and require electronics to 'test' the quality for us. (Pixel peeping, noise analysis, etc). We're worried about stuff that makes little (to no) difference in the end, because the differences are now that subtle, they're difficult to see with the naked eye.
Also - even though this sensor is 2 years old, I'm sure if you've brought some prints from 2 years ago (or even 8 year ago back in the <10MP day) they haven't gone out of date, and are just as good a quality to hang on your wall.
If you are specifically looking for an edge in low light photography only - maybe - just maybe it's worth taking a look at these charts... with a pinch of salt, but even then - I'd say that just learning one thing new about how to improve your photography skills in low light with what you already have over the next month will improve your images ten fold in comparison to what a newer sensor could.
Hope this is of some encouragement.
)However, in saying this - I do think we've gotten to a stage in technology where we can't really see much of the difference ourselves, and require electronics to 'test' the quality for us. (Pixel peeping, noise analysis, etc). We're worried about stuff that makes little (to no) difference in the end, because the differences are now that subtle, they're difficult to see with the naked eye.
Also - even though this sensor is 2 years old, I'm sure if you've brought some prints from 2 years ago (or even 8 year ago back in the <10MP day) they haven't gone out of date, and are just as good a quality to hang on your wall.
If you are specifically looking for an edge in low light photography only - maybe - just maybe it's worth taking a look at these charts... with a pinch of salt, but even then - I'd say that just learning one thing new about how to improve your photography skills in low light with what you already have over the next month will improve your images ten fold in comparison to what a newer sensor could.
Hope this is of some encouragement.
I fully agree!
For most of my pictures I don't worry much about the ISO it will select. I set the auto-ISO bar at 1600 which for me feels like a luxuriously wide working range and I only rarely need use a higher value. For my personal use, like the mega-pixels, sensor noise with todays APS-C technology is "adequate" and a non-issue. It enables me to just trust the capabilities of the camera and enjoy the nice/challenging things around photography:
- going places,
- play with composition and light,
- at times be alert to catch the right moment.
Regards,
10s
For most of my pictures I don't worry much about the ISO it will select. I set the auto-ISO bar at 1600 which for me feels like a luxuriously wide working range and I only rarely need use a higher value. For my personal use, like the mega-pixels, sensor noise with todays APS-C technology is "adequate" and a non-issue. It enables me to just trust the capabilities of the camera and enjoy the nice/challenging things around photography:
- going places,
- play with composition and light,
- at times be alert to catch the right moment.
Regards,
10s
In my tests the D5200 is 44% worse than the 650D.
I used a precisely controlled test environment (lighting, temperature, humidity, etc.), and the highest level of scientific method conducting the test.
I then manipulated the RAW files.
That resulted in my results of the D5200 being 44% worse than the 650D.
I used a precisely controlled test environment (lighting, temperature, humidity, etc.), and the highest level of scientific method conducting the test.
I then manipulated the RAW files.
That resulted in my results of the D5200 being 44% worse than the 650D.
what I'd say is you have pro IQ and the features are great in the T4i for the budget $ - for the $600 I paid for mine, there isn't a camera out there that I'd rather have. I like my T4i more than my 60d.
let me clarify what I said about second tier lenses for photos. I think you have two terrific lenses for the dollars. The 18-135 STM is the top tier lens combo for video with the T4i and one will not see much difference with a top tier lens. And yeah - I'd choose the new tamy 70-300 over my 55-250 IS -- and I love my 55-250 IS even though I have the 70-200 F2.8L + 1.4II ext.
So don't worry about the glass you have in zooms -- it is good stuff -- probably the best stuff you can buy on a budget -- again, the photographer will make the difference even over the shooter that has top tier glass, but hasn't done their homework on the other more important elements I mentioned.
Best advice I could give -- quite reading dxo as being the chart gospel and understand what the technology actually can give
We've hit a WALL in technology - so not much more one can gain on the bodies with CMOS
On a budget -- you have very good zooms.
You can improve your lens collection by selecting some budget primes.
50 f1.8II is a no brainer for $99 -- shoot it at F2.2 for people. and it is wicked sharp at f4.5
If you want to get into macro -- look for a 60F2.8 macro used. I got mine for $275 used and it is good for portrait and macros. Every crop owner should have one imo.
And finally -- the 35f2 -- I got mine for $289. I shoot indoor kids with it at f2.2. The combo of the 35f2 and 60f2.8 and moving my feet covers a whole bunch -- that these are go to lenses for me indoors
here is my live view touch screen auto iso technique that I like a lot and have been practicing to use with T4i
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50619045
good luck -- the grass ain't greener for the dollars...
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G
gatorowl
Guest
I shoot both Canon and Nikon. In crop sensor cameras I have owned Rebel 300D (the original DRebel), 450D (XSI for about two weeks; should have kept it), 500D (T1i), and 650D (T4i), 40D, and 7D. On the Nikon side I have owned the D90 and D5100. Currently the only crop sensor cameras I currently own are the 300D (I'll never get rid of that classic) and the 650D.Speedydom wrote:
DxO tested the Toshiba sensor of the new Nikon D5200, see the verdict under !
Will Canon make a new firmware to close the gap ?!
My reason for the (overly) frequent turnover was my search for the right main camera/backup camera combination. I purchased the 7D as soon as it was announced, and loved everything about it except the IQ. This camera is noisy even at base ISO and goes down hill from there. The D90, by contrast, was clearly inferior in terms of features and ergonomics, but the IQ was much better. I could shoot at ISO 2000-2500 and get excellent results. With the 7D, IS0 1600 pushed the envelop. The D5100 was a clear improvement in IQ--especially in shadow detail--, but the features were lacking.
The DRebels don't fare as well in DXO terms, but I've seen a study improvement in IQ, nonetheless. My biggest complaints with the 450D and 500D cameras was not IQ, but with the horrendous AF and weak metering. I just couldn't stomach them especially alongside the 7D.
The 650D is much, much better in this respect. The AF, albeit not on a pro level, is nonetheless excellent. But more importantly, the IQ is the best that I've seen in a DRebel. There is a certain crispness and vibrance that I see in my 650D shots that I haven't seen in previous cameras. I shoot exclusively Raw, so it isn't the jpeg engine (which is excellent). This is the first DReb since the original with which I have actually been happy to own. At base ISO, my output is clearly better than what I saw in the 7D. So even though DXO isn't picking it up, the sensor is much improved.
Having said that, the D5100 sensor still has far better dynamic range. You can push the shadows to a far greater extent without increasing noise levels than can be done with the Canon cameras. However, the ease of use and feature set of the 650D more than makes up for the modest advantage in this area. If you are more comfortable with the Canon offering, then the IQ difference is not enough reason to pick Nikon.
Indeed. DXO ratings have their use but people shouldn't stare blindly at them.
So I'd like to add that the anti-aliasing filter in the 650D delivers much sharper pictures than its predecessors. Which means less sharpening needed when processing the RAW files. Ergo: less noise amplification with sharpening because you need to do less sharpening in post. Combine that with Lightroom's selective sharpening/noise reduction and you get butter smooth bokeh and sharp foreground even at higher ISO's. There indeed so much more in a camera than just the sensor specs.
Regards,
10s
So I'd like to add that the anti-aliasing filter in the 650D delivers much sharper pictures than its predecessors. Which means less sharpening needed when processing the RAW files. Ergo: less noise amplification with sharpening because you need to do less sharpening in post. Combine that with Lightroom's selective sharpening/noise reduction and you get butter smooth bokeh and sharp foreground even at higher ISO's. There indeed so much more in a camera than just the sensor specs.
Regards,
10s
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I also read that the JPEG output has improved. But my workflow is RAW and I often am amazed by the sharpness in these files. Others also noticed the increased sharpness but I can't remember if that was about JPEG or RAW. Regarding the AA filter Canon seems to have done the same with the 6D. Downside is that moire can pop up which can be a concern for video shooters. I do not have much experience with JPEG since I moved quickly to RAW with my previous 300D. I have no clue if DIGIC5 also works to improve RAW files however from Canon I expect honest unprocessed RAW output. Maybe I should try JPEG for a while...
Regards,
10s
Regards,
10s
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Bryan's review explains what Canon said - digic5 for the raws tuned to 1dx sharpness levels
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-T4i-650D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx
yeah, moire is worse on 6d than 5d3 or even 5d2, so you could be right on the 6d filter - see video
Do you have info on the T4i filter being weak generating more moire than say a 60d?
Bryan and I say shoot Raw and use Lightoom for best results
but the T4i's jpg engine is very good and Bryan's review has found
kewlguy
Senior Member
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When I got the 650D months ago, I realized that it's sharper than my 60D and 600D (sold the 60D already). The 650D might seem noisier but it retain the sharpness and definition very well even at high ISOs. Like 10s said, the gap between D5200 and 650D is actually not as big as DxO indicates. Have you seen D5200 samples? It has really low noise, but looks soft to me. It's either the AA filter is too strong or the lens just doesn't deliver. It clearly lacks the bite 650D has.
OTOH, I'm interested to see if any of Canon's future 24MP DSLRs omit the LPOF. I can't wait to see how they compare to Nikon's AA-less D7100...
OTOH, I'm interested to see if any of Canon's future 24MP DSLRs omit the LPOF. I can't wait to see how they compare to Nikon's AA-less D7100...
purelightglow
Active member
No thats just statistic, a number. I see a much closer gap in quality. I've yet to discover a shot that disapoints and I've yet to crop that small or display at full size too. I rely on my use of lenses and a little processing for low light
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