AA filter the cause??? 10D/D60/D30 soft @ f2.8.

[David Bazemore]

The AF works fine and I don't have problems with front or back focus with my D10 (unlike my 1D front focussing).

Buuttt... anything shot @f4 or less is pretty darn soft, very soft @f2.8 (all L lenses). When testing, I used high speed and tripod w/ remote release to eliminate any question of camera movement.

As I mentioned before, my 1D is much sharper @ f2.8 even with 1/2" front focus.

When I posted before about this I got this response from Adam-T:

Nothing to do with the CMOS or CCD sensor it's the AA filter -my D60 looks soft as pigshit compared to a 1DS which also has a CMOS sensor ... the 1D has the weakest AA filter on it's sensor whichy is why it suffers Moire, the D60/D30/10D has the most aggressive - they got it right with the 1DS, no moire and sharp pics - it's a shame that they aren't user swappable like the old Kodak dinosaurs, I'd LOVE a 1DS strength AA filter on my D60

My question remains: why only with the lenses opened up?
Why would the AA filter be more agressive at wider apertures?

Keep in mind that the 10D @f8 and above is quite sharp, f11 and above very sharp.

what's going on here??

--
da trip man

 

[Jason Hutchinson]

My question remains: why only with the lenses opened up?
Why would the AA filter be more agressive at wider apertures?

Keep in mind that the 10D @f8 and above is quite sharp, f11 and
above very sharp.

what's going on here??

You have soft lenses or bad focus or shake. Pick one of the three. I have used lenses that are sharper at f/2.8 than f/11 in the center (400f/2.8, 20f/1.8) on the D60.. If the lens were sharp at f/2.8, and you have the right focus you will get the same sharpness at f/2.8. Rent a 200f/1.8 for a day, and you'll see the clarity.

Jason

 

[David Bazemore]

Read the whole post please:

Camera on tripod, remote release, high shutter speed.

The lenses aren't the issue or the 1D fotos would be soft @2.8 as well.

NO problems with softness with the 1D, as I said, even with front focus they are much sharper than the 10D.

My question remains: why only with the lenses opened up?
Why would the AA filter be more agressive at wider apertures?

Keep in mind that the 10D @f8 and above is quite sharp, f11 and
above very sharp.

what's going on here??

You have soft lenses or bad focus or shake. Pick one of the three.
I have used lenses that are sharper at f/2.8 than f/11 in the
center (400f/2.8, 20f/1.8) on the D60.. If the lens were sharp at
f/2.8, and you have the right focus you will get the same sharpness
at f/2.8. Rent a 200f/1.8 for a day, and you'll see the clarity.

Jason

--
da trip man

 

[Adam-T]

My question remains: why only with the lenses opened up?
Why would the AA filter be more agressive at wider apertures?

The AA filter doesn't change it's properties at different apertures so I can't answer your question, compared to a 1DS or 1D , the D60 and 10D will be softer at all apertures

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

 

[Jason Hutchinson]

Read the whole post please:
Camera on tripod, remote release, high shutter speed.

I read the whole post, however it only added a few words to show the complete list of variables that are going to be affecting sharpness. This was meant to be the entire list, and the fact that you posted this question means you don't understand this.

The lenses aren't the issue or the 1D fotos would be soft @2.8 as
well.
NO problems with softness with the 1D, as I said, even with front
focus they are much sharper than the 10D.

No one doubts the 1D is sharper at the pixel level than the any consumer DSLRs. Somehow you're getting the subjective nature of this confused, and are grasping at straws. Everything points back to focus. Front or rear focus can vary front shot to shot, especially if subject distance is a variable. Then, there is the issue that the 1D front focuses like the D60/D30/10D when the light levels get really low. This is not a digital function, it's an analog problem that fades away slowly over light levels.

Jason

 

[David Bazemore]

Thanks for responding Jason-
Grasping at straws??!!

Since the whole image is soft, it can not be front or back focus, and I can see that the intended area is "in focus", it is just quite soft.

Plus, using manual focus, AI servo, One shot or AI focus makes no diff. Thru the lens everything looks fine.

While the 1D is inherantly sharper, as f stop increases (aperture gets smaller) the difference is much less.

You are implying user error.
I have been shooting professionally for many years and I know what I'm doing.

I have eliminated:
faulty lenses - they work fine on my 1D. and did on my 1V and 3 too.
camera shake etc.
front or back focus
AF error - used manual as well

others have said that the AA filter is not to blame, ie: not aperture sensitive.

I am looking for an explanation as to why 10D and D30 (I have one of those as well) and D60 make soft images @ f2.8.

Images made @ f8 and higher are signicantly sharper than those @ f2.8

Read the whole post please:
Camera on tripod, remote release, high shutter speed.

I read the whole post, however it only added a few words to show
the complete list of variables that are going to be affecting
sharpness. This was meant to be the entire list, and the fact that
you posted this question means you don't understand this.

The lenses aren't the issue or the 1D fotos would be soft @2.8 as
well.
NO problems with softness with the 1D, as I said, even with front
focus they are much sharper than the 10D.

No one doubts the 1D is sharper at the pixel level than the any
consumer DSLRs. Somehow you're getting the subjective nature of
this confused, and are grasping at straws. Everything points back
to focus. Front or rear focus can vary front shot to shot,
especially if subject distance is a variable. Then, there is the
issue that the 1D front focuses like the D60/D30/10D when the light
levels get really low. This is not a digital function, it's an
analog problem that fades away slowly over light levels.

Jason

--
da trip man

 

[Jason Hutchinson]

Thanks for responding Jason-
Grasping at straws??!!

Sorry, it just sounds like it. It's possible there is some issue, but I've yet to hear a good explanation or see any actual evidence of this.

If you have any truly good and sharp (at f/2.8) lenses, I think you should try the test with those lenses.

I can only think of a few lenses that are "tack" sharp at all times at f/2.8

1) 85f/1.2
2) 135f/2
3) 200f/1.8
4) 300f/2.8
5) 400f/2.8

Jason

Since the whole image is soft, it can not be front or back focus,
and I can see that the intended area is "in focus", it is just
quite soft.
Plus, using manual focus, AI servo, One shot or AI focus makes no
diff. Thru the lens everything looks fine.

While the 1D is inherantly sharper, as f stop increases (aperture
gets smaller) the difference is much less.

You are implying user error.
I have been shooting professionally for many years and I know what
I'm doing.

I have eliminated:
faulty lenses - they work fine on my 1D. and did on my 1V and 3 too.
camera shake etc.
front or back focus
AF error - used manual as well

others have said that the AA filter is not to blame, ie: not
aperture sensitive.

I am looking for an explanation as to why 10D and D30 (I have one
of those as well) and D60 make soft images @ f2.8.

Images made @ f8 and higher are signicantly sharper than those @ f2.8

Read the whole post please:
Camera on tripod, remote release, high shutter speed.

I read the whole post, however it only added a few words to show
the complete list of variables that are going to be affecting
sharpness. This was meant to be the entire list, and the fact that
you posted this question means you don't understand this.

The lenses aren't the issue or the 1D fotos would be soft @2.8 as
well.
NO problems with softness with the 1D, as I said, even with front
focus they are much sharper than the 10D.

No one doubts the 1D is sharper at the pixel level than the any
consumer DSLRs. Somehow you're getting the subjective nature of
this confused, and are grasping at straws. Everything points back
to focus. Front or rear focus can vary front shot to shot,
especially if subject distance is a variable. Then, there is the
issue that the 1D front focuses like the D60/D30/10D when the light
levels get really low. This is not a digital function, it's an
analog problem that fades away slowly over light levels.

Jason

--
da trip man

 

[David Bazemore]

Well, I didn't say tack sharp, but more than acceptably sharp.

Admittedly my 300 IS2.8 is the sharpest.

The 50 1.4, 17-35 2.8, 70-200 IS2.8 are all pretty darn good.

Problem is with the 10D & D30 only the 300 is acceptable without a LOT of sharpening.

And I shoot wide open most of the time (performing arts), so this is a biggie for me.

I can live with it, after all I spent a year getting great shots with the D30.

Just got spoiled with the 1D, and hoped ther was some fix since I often can't make any noise (classical music) which means the 1D is out, even with my "wetsuit blimp". That is one loud mutha.

Thanks for responding Jason-
Grasping at straws??!!

Sorry, it just sounds like it. It's possible there is some issue,
but I've yet to hear a good explanation or see any actual evidence
of this.

If you have any truly good and sharp (at f/2.8) lenses, I think you
should try the test with those lenses.

I can only think of a few lenses that are "tack" sharp at all times
at f/2.8

1) 85f/1.2
2) 135f/2
3) 200f/1.8
4) 300f/2.8
5) 400f/2.8

Jason

Since the whole image is soft, it can not be front or back focus,
and I can see that the intended area is "in focus", it is just
quite soft.
Plus, using manual focus, AI servo, One shot or AI focus makes no
diff. Thru the lens everything looks fine.

While the 1D is inherantly sharper, as f stop increases (aperture
gets smaller) the difference is much less.

You are implying user error.
I have been shooting professionally for many years and I know what
I'm doing.

I have eliminated:
faulty lenses - they work fine on my 1D. and did on my 1V and 3 too.
camera shake etc.
front or back focus
AF error - used manual as well

others have said that the AA filter is not to blame, ie: not
aperture sensitive.

I am looking for an explanation as to why 10D and D30 (I have one
of those as well) and D60 make soft images @ f2.8.

Images made @ f8 and higher are signicantly sharper than those @ f2.8

Read the whole post please:
Camera on tripod, remote release, high shutter speed.

I read the whole post, however it only added a few words to show
the complete list of variables that are going to be affecting
sharpness. This was meant to be the entire list, and the fact that
you posted this question means you don't understand this.

The lenses aren't the issue or the 1D fotos would be soft @2.8 as
well.
NO problems with softness with the 1D, as I said, even with front
focus they are much sharper than the 10D.

No one doubts the 1D is sharper at the pixel level than the any
consumer DSLRs. Somehow you're getting the subjective nature of
this confused, and are grasping at straws. Everything points back
to focus. Front or rear focus can vary front shot to shot,
especially if subject distance is a variable. Then, there is the
issue that the 1D front focuses like the D60/D30/10D when the light
levels get really low. This is not a digital function, it's an
analog problem that fades away slowly over light levels.

Jason

--
da trip man

--
da trip man

 

[Jason Hutchinson]

Do you have any samples from the 300f/2.8? There have been about 50 or so full size samples those two cameras and that lens, so it might be an ok comparison. Not sure how many of the shots posted here have been wide open.

Jason

Admittedly my 300 IS2.8 is the sharpest.

The 50 1.4, 17-35 2.8, 70-200 IS2.8 are all pretty darn good.

Problem is with the 10D & D30 only the 300 is acceptable without a
LOT of sharpening.

And I shoot wide open most of the time (performing arts), so this
is a biggie for me.

I can live with it, after all I spent a year getting great shots
with the D30.

Just got spoiled with the 1D, and hoped ther was some fix since I
often can't make any noise (classical music) which means the 1D is
out, even with my "wetsuit blimp". That is one loud mutha.

Thanks for responding Jason-
Grasping at straws??!!

Sorry, it just sounds like it. It's possible there is some issue,
but I've yet to hear a good explanation or see any actual evidence
of this.

If you have any truly good and sharp (at f/2.8) lenses, I think you
should try the test with those lenses.

I can only think of a few lenses that are "tack" sharp at all times
at f/2.8

1) 85f/1.2
2) 135f/2
3) 200f/1.8
4) 300f/2.8
5) 400f/2.8

Jason

Since the whole image is soft, it can not be front or back focus,
and I can see that the intended area is "in focus", it is just
quite soft.
Plus, using manual focus, AI servo, One shot or AI focus makes no
diff. Thru the lens everything looks fine.

While the 1D is inherantly sharper, as f stop increases (aperture
gets smaller) the difference is much less.

You are implying user error.
I have been shooting professionally for many years and I know what
I'm doing.

I have eliminated:
faulty lenses - they work fine on my 1D. and did on my 1V and 3 too.
camera shake etc.
front or back focus
AF error - used manual as well

others have said that the AA filter is not to blame, ie: not
aperture sensitive.

I am looking for an explanation as to why 10D and D30 (I have one
of those as well) and D60 make soft images @ f2.8.

Images made @ f8 and higher are signicantly sharper than those @ f2.8

Read the whole post please:
Camera on tripod, remote release, high shutter speed.

I read the whole post, however it only added a few words to show
the complete list of variables that are going to be affecting
sharpness. This was meant to be the entire list, and the fact that
you posted this question means you don't understand this.

The lenses aren't the issue or the 1D fotos would be soft @2.8 as
well.
NO problems with softness with the 1D, as I said, even with front
focus they are much sharper than the 10D.

No one doubts the 1D is sharper at the pixel level than the any
consumer DSLRs. Somehow you're getting the subjective nature of
this confused, and are grasping at straws. Everything points back
to focus. Front or rear focus can vary front shot to shot,
especially if subject distance is a variable. Then, there is the
issue that the 1D front focuses like the D60/D30/10D when the light
levels get really low. This is not a digital function, it's an
analog problem that fades away slowly over light levels.

Jason

--
da trip man

--
da trip man

 

[Forrest41926]

Depth is going to be a lot narrower at f/2.8 than smaller apertures, and the OOF parts on an image are going to be softer ... but you already know that. It can be very easy to get a misfocus, though, and I wouldn't be so quick to rule this out.

My 100/2.8 Macro is razor sharp at f/2.8 on my D60. So is my 50/1.4. My 16-35L might be called acceptably sharp around 24 mm at f/2.8, but it's nothing to write home about. With these three lenses set to f/2.8 on my D60, I can immediately tell the 16-35L shot apart for it's softness. The other lenses look better at f/2.8 than the 16 looks probably at any aperture.

The low-pass filter in your cameras doesn't care about -- or know -- what aperture you're taking a photo at. It just softens what comes through it. If your lenses are already soft it will make them softer ... and if they're terribly sharp, they'll still be pretty sharp on the other end. But it won't soften more at f/2.8 than it will at f/8.

The AF works fine and I don't have problems with front or back
focus with my D10 (unlike my 1D front focussing).
Buuttt... anything shot @f4 or less is pretty darn soft, very soft
@f2.8 (all L lenses). When testing, I used high speed and tripod w/
remote release to eliminate any question of camera movement.

As I mentioned before, my 1D is much sharper @ f2.8 even with 1/2"
front focus.

When I posted before about this I got this response from Adam-T:

Nothing to do with the CMOS or CCD sensor it's the AA filter -my
D60 looks soft as pigshit compared to a 1DS which also has a CMOS
sensor ... the 1D has the weakest AA filter on it's sensor whichy
is why it suffers Moire, the D60/D30/10D has the most aggressive -
they got it right with the 1DS, no moire and sharp pics - it's a
shame that they aren't user swappable like the old Kodak dinosaurs,
I'd LOVE a 1DS strength AA filter on my D60

My question remains: why only with the lenses opened up?
Why would the AA filter be more agressive at wider apertures?

Keep in mind that the 10D @f8 and above is quite sharp, f11 and
above very sharp.

what's going on here??

--
da trip man

 

[David Bazemore]

I wish I could, but I'm on deadline right now and shouldn't have even taken the time to post all this.

I've only used the 300/D10 once, to shoot Herbie Hancock (only had it a week and a half) and they were quite good even at !SO 1600.Low light is my bane!

If I get a chance over the weekend, I can post it and some others from D30 and 1D (I've got hundreds)

Jason

Admittedly my 300 IS2.8 is the sharpest.

The 50 1.4, 17-35 2.8, 70-200 IS2.8 are all pretty darn good.

Problem is with the 10D & D30 only the 300 is acceptable without a
LOT of sharpening.

And I shoot wide open most of the time (performing arts), so this
is a biggie for me.

I can live with it, after all I spent a year getting great shots
with the D30.

Just got spoiled with the 1D, and hoped ther was some fix since I
often can't make any noise (classical music) which means the 1D is
out, even with my "wetsuit blimp". That is one loud mutha.

Thanks for responding Jason-
Grasping at straws??!!

Sorry, it just sounds like it. It's possible there is some issue,
but I've yet to hear a good explanation or see any actual evidence
of this.

If you have any truly good and sharp (at f/2.8) lenses, I think you
should try the test with those lenses.

I can only think of a few lenses that are "tack" sharp at all times
at f/2.8

1) 85f/1.2
2) 135f/2
3) 200f/1.8
4) 300f/2.8
5) 400f/2.8

Jason

Since the whole image is soft, it can not be front or back focus,
and I can see that the intended area is "in focus", it is just
quite soft.
Plus, using manual focus, AI servo, One shot or AI focus makes no
diff. Thru the lens everything looks fine.

While the 1D is inherantly sharper, as f stop increases (aperture
gets smaller) the difference is much less.

You are implying user error.
I have been shooting professionally for many years and I know what
I'm doing.

I have eliminated:
faulty lenses - they work fine on my 1D. and did on my 1V and 3 too.
camera shake etc.
front or back focus
AF error - used manual as well

others have said that the AA filter is not to blame, ie: not
aperture sensitive.

I am looking for an explanation as to why 10D and D30 (I have one
of those as well) and D60 make soft images @ f2.8.

Images made @ f8 and higher are signicantly sharper than those @ f2.8

Read the whole post please:
Camera on tripod, remote release, high shutter speed.

I read the whole post, however it only added a few words to show
the complete list of variables that are going to be affecting
sharpness. This was meant to be the entire list, and the fact that
you posted this question means you don't understand this.

The lenses aren't the issue or the 1D fotos would be soft @2.8 as
well.
NO problems with softness with the 1D, as I said, even with front
focus they are much sharper than the 10D.

No one doubts the 1D is sharper at the pixel level than the any
consumer DSLRs. Somehow you're getting the subjective nature of
this confused, and are grasping at straws. Everything points back
to focus. Front or rear focus can vary front shot to shot,
especially if subject distance is a variable. Then, there is the
issue that the 1D front focuses like the D60/D30/10D when the light
levels get really low. This is not a digital function, it's an
analog problem that fades away slowly over light levels.

Jason

--
da trip man

--
da trip man

--
da trip man

 

[David Bazemore]

DOF is not the issue. as I pointed out in an earlier reply, the part that is "infocus" is soft too.
If I have some time this weekend I'll make some more tests and post results.

If the difference weren't so great between wide open and smaller apertures on both the D10 and the 1D, I would be willing to believe that the lenses are at fault. I agree that the 17-35 is not the greatest, but more than acceptable on the 1D.

My 100/2.8 Macro is razor sharp at f/2.8 on my D60. So is my
50/1.4. My 16-35L might be called acceptably sharp around 24 mm at
f/2.8, but it's nothing to write home about. With these three
lenses set to f/2.8 on my D60, I can immediately tell the 16-35L
shot apart for it's softness. The other lenses look better at
f/2.8 than the 16 looks probably at any aperture.

The low-pass filter in your cameras doesn't care about -- or know
-- what aperture you're taking a photo at. It just softens what
comes through it. If your lenses are already soft it will make
them softer ... and if they're terribly sharp, they'll still be
pretty sharp on the other end. But it won't soften more at f/2.8
than it will at f/8.

The AF works fine and I don't have problems with front or back
focus with my D10 (unlike my 1D front focussing).
Buuttt... anything shot @f4 or less is pretty darn soft, very soft
@f2.8 (all L lenses). When testing, I used high speed and tripod w/
remote release to eliminate any question of camera movement.

As I mentioned before, my 1D is much sharper @ f2.8 even with 1/2"
front focus.

When I posted before about this I got this response from Adam-T:

Nothing to do with the CMOS or CCD sensor it's the AA filter -my
D60 looks soft as pigshit compared to a 1DS which also has a CMOS
sensor ... the 1D has the weakest AA filter on it's sensor whichy
is why it suffers Moire, the D60/D30/10D has the most aggressive -
they got it right with the 1DS, no moire and sharp pics - it's a
shame that they aren't user swappable like the old Kodak dinosaurs,
I'd LOVE a 1DS strength AA filter on my D60

My question remains: why only with the lenses opened up?
Why would the AA filter be more agressive at wider apertures?

Keep in mind that the 10D @f8 and above is quite sharp, f11 and
above very sharp.

what's going on here??

--
da trip man

--
da trip man

 

[Forrest41926]

If the difference weren't so great between wide open and smaller
apertures on both the D10 and the 1D, I would be willing to believe
that the lenses are at fault. I agree that the 17-35 is not the
greatest, but more than acceptable on the 1D.

So are the lenses sharp at f/8 or f/11? Maybe the chip in your 10D is misaligned ever so slightly? Or the camera is a dud in some other way...?

 

[David Bazemore]

Yes, the lenses are sharp at f8 and above. see earlier posts in this thread.

If the difference weren't so great between wide open and smaller
apertures on both the D10 and the 1D, I would be willing to believe
that the lenses are at fault. I agree that the 17-35 is not the
greatest, but more than acceptable on the 1D.

So are the lenses sharp at f/8 or f/11? Maybe the chip in your 10D
is misaligned ever so slightly? Or the camera is a dud in some
other way...?

--
da trip man