What happened to Canon sensor development?

[pgb]

They're paying more attention to that than DR and pixels.

Maybe so, since Canon is about to release a 4K cine camera and some new
very expensive cine lenses.

The C300 is also selling like hotcakes here, that surprised me at $15K.

Better margins, newish markets than the now hyper competitive slr game where
so many people constantly complain.

Similar to Apple dumping FCP in the competitive pro market and there aiming at
the masses with FCP X, more profits, less headaches.

BC

--

In the beginning was the rhythm but I had forgotten and was waiting for the beat.

 

[eleison24]

They're paying more attention to that than DR and pixels.

Maybe so, since Canon is about to release a 4K cine camera and some new
very expensive cine lenses.

The C300 is also selling like hotcakes here, that surprised me at $15K.

Better margins, newish markets than the now hyper competitive slr game where
so many people constantly complain.

Similar to Apple dumping FCP in the competitive pro market and there aiming at
the masses with FCP X, more profits, less headaches.

BC

Canon is going to fail in the cinema field. Sony is about to release the fs700. Also, fs100 is going strong. Not to mention new entries like the JVC 4k video camera. Don't forget about the Red camera also and the panasonic AF100. There are a ton of competition in the cine field.

There WAS very, very few competitors in the "high quality" video dslr field which Canon is now abandoning (hence they created the C300). Every dslr video product they create will be "lower quality" then their C300. It's their segmentation strategy. This will hurt their video dslr products.

Now with pressure from Nikon, they are getting hurt in the photography field also. Pretty soon they will have to revive their bubble jet printer division.

 

[Great Bustard]

Is Canon supposed to be the leader or we are expecting too much?

...I think Canon is just milking old tech to maximize profits, relying on name recognition, brand loyalty, and people being "lens locked".

Yes, the 5D3 is an excellent camera by all measures (everything I wanted in a 5D2, to tell the truth). But that's not why it costs $500 more than the D800.

 

[filmluvr]

They're paying more attention to that than DR and pixels.

Canon needs to develop a high-DR sensor similar to the Fuji effort. I said that three years ago.

--
http://jackandkelly.zenfolio.com/

 

[carlk]

Is Canon supposed to be the leader or we are expecting too much?

...I think Canon is just milking old tech to maximize profits, relying on name recognition, brand loyalty, and people being "lens locked".

Yes, the 5D3 is an excellent camera by all measures (everything I wanted in a 5D2, to tell the truth). But that's not why it costs $500 more than the D800.

You can do things other can't when you have the near monoply. They are doing what IBM was doing by charging $4000 for the PC or Microsoft is doing by charging $200 for XP, Vista, W7 which are essentially the same old products slightly modified. The only question for Canon is how long you can continue doing that. The rest of the world is moving fast sooner or later they will be left behind if they don't do something about it quick.

The other thing is they still don't have a mirroless. Are they going to wait until the market is satuated with products by other companies?

 

[carlk]

I actually worked for a (then) large US video equipment house making TV studio recorder and post production equipments 20 years ago. Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) were the two big Japanese competitors. Canon was unheard of for video studio equipment at that time. I don't know what happend later since eventually Sony and Matsushita took over that part of industry and I left the company/industry in the mid 90's.

They're paying more attention to that than DR and pixels.

Maybe so, since Canon is about to release a 4K cine camera and some new
very expensive cine lenses.

The C300 is also selling like hotcakes here, that surprised me at $15K.

Better margins, newish markets than the now hyper competitive slr game where
so many people constantly complain.

Similar to Apple dumping FCP in the competitive pro market and there aiming at
the masses with FCP X, more profits, less headaches.

BC

Canon is going to fail in the cinema field. Sony is about to release the fs700. Also, fs100 is going strong. Not to mention new entries like the JVC 4k video camera. Don't forget about the Red camera also and the panasonic AF100. There are a ton of competition in the cine field.

There WAS very, very few competitors in the "high quality" video dslr field which Canon is now abandoning (hence they created the C300). Every dslr video product they create will be "lower quality" then their C300. It's their segmentation strategy. This will hurt their video dslr products.

Now with pressure from Nikon, they are getting hurt in the photography field also. Pretty soon they will have to revive their bubble jet printer division.

 

[pgb]

They're paying more attention to that than DR and pixels.

Maybe so, since Canon is about to release a 4K cine camera and some new
very expensive cine lenses.

The C300 is also selling like hotcakes here, that surprised me at $15K.

Better margins, newish markets than the now hyper competitive slr game where
so many people constantly complain.

Similar to Apple dumping FCP in the competitive pro market and there aiming at
the masses with FCP X, more profits, less headaches.

BC

Canon is going to fail in the cinema field.

Not sure, real users are reporting good iso 10000 on the C300, the RED one is
a noise generator at 800. Our cine guy has a demo one this weekend, we'll see.

When i was told the sales figures, I said 'that's worldwide?', no down under.

also and the panasonic AF100.

I don't think that's in the same market as Canons offering. Preffered the Canon 305

after much testing, the colour tracking from over two stops was good, it reminded

me of pro video cameras from the past - $60K no lens. 50 mbps too. The F3 went yellow and stayed that way in the grade.

There are a ton of competition in the cine field.

In the high end - Sony, RED, Arri and soon Canon 4K (probably only bayer though) hope not, the C300 is an RGB capture, then dumbed down to 422.

There WAS very, very few competitors in the "high quality" video dslr field which Canon is now abandoning (hence they created the C300). Every dslr video product they create will be "lower quality" then their C300. It's their segmentation strategy. This will hurt their video dslr products.

Yeah, the D800 uncompressed out is a first, bar the Sony VG10. Nison can do this,
they don't have a video division to protect.
Who wants to originate at Bluray quality if your doing a grade.

Now with pressure from Nikon, they are getting hurt in the photography field also. Pretty soon they will have to revive their bubble jet printer division.

--

In the beginning was the rhythm but I had forgotten and was waiting for the beat.

 

[oysso]

Yeah more MP is a bad thing long as you can't have it.

Or if there is more MP than you need.

Here is the latest 1.1um technology, equivalent to about 800MP on full frame. Those people have too much time on their hand.

http://www.ovt.com/technologies/technology.php?TID=7

 

[bobn2]

Nah Bob - you're hearing is going. It's called "old age" ;-)

Unfortunately there is some truth in what you wrote .

Had some friends over the other night, a nice bottle or 2 of pinot and dusted off some records (those flat disc-shaped vinyl thingy's). The old Linn got a bit of a fright, but struggled manfully without any digital. Anywhere. I was amazed at how it could cope. And only 2 channels! Priceless.

Two channels have always been just fine for me.

That's because you are not Captain James T Kirk - left ear, right ear, final front ear.
--
Bob

 

[yabokkie]

unless it provides me significantly more resolution that I can't get with my 7D.

definitely D800 can deliver by far more resolution as long as it's "frame resolution."

it will be slightly less capable if it's the "subject resolution" using the same lens,
like a 500/4 for birds. the difference should be within error range.

 

[rwbaron]

Nah Bob - you're hearing is going. It's called "old age" ;-)

Unfortunately there is some truth in what you wrote .

Had some friends over the other night, a nice bottle or 2 of pinot and dusted off some records (those flat disc-shaped vinyl thingy's). The old Linn got a bit of a fright, but struggled manfully without any digital. Anywhere. I was amazed at how it could cope. And only 2 channels! Priceless.

Two channels have always been just fine for me.

That's because you are not Captain James T Kirk - left ear, right ear, final front ear.

It took me two reads but I got it

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

 

[MM1]

This after the phenomenal 1Mp increase in the 5D line.

Funny you....

What about all the Nikon upgrades in the past...something with only adding the letter "s"

There is more to an increasement then only the MP !!!
If it is MP you are after buy the Nokia 41mp....

I hear the Nokia sensor will be in the 5D3s due in a couple months.

And we will get a 5D Mk3 N with a very new meaning for "N" ;-)

--
Cheers,
Martin

 

[Silverback1988]

Hi carlk,
I was a little disappointed with 5DIII,
I thought that camera was my upgrade path for my 5DII.
I am waiting for a 48 MP (or so) from Canon.
And I believe they could deliver that,
because their current technology is up to it.
Just look their 18MP APSC cameras,
IF their sensor area is as big as 35mm FF,
THEN The IQ would surpass the 5DIII.

I don't think a single exposure from 5DII or 5DIII would match 2 exposures from 7D (stitched) at ISO 100.

So.. IMHO... Canon could make one that better than 5DIII (from IQ stand point).
The question is, would they make one ?
First time, I was doubt it,
but with the release of 60Da that designed for a specific task,

I consider it as a good sign from Canon that they would make a specific camera for another task : landscape / fashion / studio which need higher resolution.

Let's see when that happen.

Now, I still using 5DII which still a great tools for me, not interest with 5DIII for an upgrade.
-
Brian

Canon apologist would say the 5DIII sensor is not a bad one and an improvement over the previous gen but I don’t see it that way. Yes it’s not a bad one if the world has been standing still but the technology landscape is very different now. One more MP and perhaps slightly better noise with no improvement in DR for three and half years while the rest of the world has been progressing in leaps and bounds just put them in such a bad position.

Three and half years ago Canon’s 21MP sensor had absolutely no peer. Few short years later everyone from phone camera to dslr sensor makers are able to develop much better sensors except for Canon. iPhone at that time had a noisy measly 2MP sensor. It now has an 8MP sensor that is able to take very nice pictures even in relatively low lights. Nokia’s 41MP sensor with varies crop and down sampling modes produces great low noise still and full HD video images. It even beats the 5DIII sensor in video over-sampling amount. Not to be lost here is those are sensors come with phones which cost just a small fraction of the high end dslr and can also make phone calls or surf the web.

On the higher end front Sony have the nice 36MP full frame sensor they made for Nikon camera and perhaps their own later. Even their aps-c sensor has more MP than Canon’s full frame sensor with IQ not far behind, or even exceeds it in certain areas. Fuji’s innovative aps-c sensor in X Pro 1 was said to be as good or better than most full frame dslr sensor for high or low ISO IQ. Imagine what if Canon have technologies similar to what Sony, Fuji and those phone sensor makers have to put into the latest camera? Is Canon supposed to be the leader or we are expecting too much?

 

[carlk]

I am waiting for a 48 MP (or so) from Canon.
And I believe they could deliver that,
because their current technology is up to it.
Just look their 18MP APSC cameras,
IF their sensor area is as big as 35mm FF,
THEN The IQ would surpass the 5DIII.

That’s a valid point even though DR would still be behind those from Sony or Fuji. On the other hand for whatever reasons this (same pixel pitch for full frame as aps-c) has never been done before. Sony already have 24MP aps-c which is equivalent to 54MP FF but they only made the latest one 36MP. I’m not sure if Canon can do a 46MP even if they are willing to but we can always hope.

 

[oysso]

I am waiting for a 48 MP (or so) from Canon.
And I believe they could deliver that,
because their current technology is up to it.
Just look their 18MP APSC cameras,
IF their sensor area is as big as 35mm FF,
THEN The IQ would surpass the 5DIII.

That’s a valid point even though DR would still be behind those from Sony or Fuji. On the other hand for whatever reasons this (same pixel pitch for full frame as aps-c) has never been done before. Sony already have 24MP aps-c which is equivalent to 54MP FF but they only made the latest one 36MP. I’m not sure if Canon can do a 46MP even if they are willing to but we can always hope.

There is no reason that they they are not able to. But it is not always the best to do what you can. You do what is best for profit.

 

[Daniel Clune]

Your right on the mark Great Bustard. Milking old tech not to much to worry about since most are lens locked. Iam still deciding if I will get a d800, on a preorder list but most likley have at least 2 months to decide. If I stay with Canon I wont buy anything. Unless 5D3 comes way down in price which I dont see it dropping to much. Waiting to see after this first month of 5d3 sales will it then be in stock every were and if so will canon then lower its price. First month of course most likley canon will sell every 5D3 they make but after that I have my doubts it will sell well at all.

Whole reason I wanted to get back into FF was for landscape pictures. For landscape the 5d line has stood still for 3 years. Yes 22 meg isnt bad BUT its not any better either. Plus also like doing wildlife and there just isnt any were near enough pixels for cropping unless I had my 300-800 which I sold recently. I used that lens for even airshows with a 1dsmk2 because of low pixel density on 1dsmk2. With 7D 500mm is plenty but not with 22 meg 5D3. 36 meg would do pretty good with 15 meg crop. Oh well frustrated canon user.

Is Canon supposed to be the leader or we are expecting too much?

...I think Canon is just milking old tech to maximize profits, relying on name recognition, brand loyalty, and people being "lens locked".

Yes, the 5D3 is an excellent camera by all measures (everything I wanted in a 5D2, to tell the truth). But that's not why it costs $500 more than the D800.

--
http://www.pbase.com/dc9mm

 

[Edymagno]

Sometimes "best for profit" is not best overall. Many factors have to be considered. Among them, company image and customer satisfaction.

The "brand" is the most valuable asset of any company in the world. Why mess with it?
Eduardo

There is no reason that they they are not able to. But it is not always the best to do what you can. You do what is best for profit.

 

[carlk]

I'm talking about sensor technology advancement not the advantage of 24mm x 36mm sensor vs. 1/3.2".

This is what I’m talking about. The current state of art cell phone sensor technology.

http://www.ovt.com/technologies/technology.php?TID=7

1.1um pixel (800MP on a full frame sensor) with back side illumination structure produced in 65nm fab line. It's way ahead of what Canon could do at this moment and for the foreseeable future.

You know that's not what I meant. Just that amazing amount of advancement has happened to even the cell phone camera in a few short years.

Yeah my brand new Samsung phone has eight megapixels... just like my 1D Mark II had eight years ago. It tops out around ISO 200 while my Canon was decent up to ISO 1600. What amazing amount of development.

If the picture quality of cell phone cameras were the goal, I'm sure Canon would have developed a fifty million pixel sensor that was unusable past ISO 800. The problem is that only a few would buy it and the rest would laugh at it.

 

[Mr.Toad]

Here:

http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/hands-on-nikon-d800-review-1061286/page:5#articleContent

To see the chart legend you have to right click and select "View Image" (firefox - in IE, I had to "save picture as").
--
http://www.pbase.com/mrtoad

 

[Kabe Luna]

Canon apologist would say the 5DIII sensor is not a bad one and an improvement over the previous gen but I don’t see it that way. Yes it’s not a bad one if the world has been standing still but the technology landscape is very different now. One more MP and perhaps slightly better noise with no improvement in DR for three and half years while the rest of the world has been progressing in leaps and bounds just put them in such a bad position.

Canon has nothing to apologize for. You are just bashing Canon for no good reason.

Three and half years ago Canon’s 21MP sensor had absolutely no peer. Few short years later everyone from phone camera to dslr sensor makers are able to develop much better sensors except for Canon.

Prove it.

iPhone at that time had a noisy measly 2MP sensor. It now has an 8MP sensor that is able to take very nice pictures even in relatively low lights.

That does not prove anything.

Nokia’s 41MP sensor with varies crop and down sampling modes produces great low noise still and full HD video images. It even beats the 5DIII sensor in video over-sampling amount. Not to be lost here is those are sensors come with phones which cost just a small fraction of the high end dslr and can also make phone calls or surf the web.

SO, is it your claim that Nokia's sensor is better than the 5DIII sensor?

On the higher end front Sony have the nice 36MP full frame sensor they made for Nikon camera and perhaps their own later. Even their aps-c sensor has more MP than Canon’s full frame sensor

So, you judge sensors solely by megapixels count. No wonder you don't think much about the new Canon sensor. That is similar to deciding who Miss USA should be by measuring the chest of all of the contestants with a measuring tape.

with IQ not far behind, or even exceeds it in certain areas.

Prove it. Are you saying that the Canon 7D has better image quality than the 5DIII?

Fuji’s innovative aps-c sensor in X Pro 1 was said to be as good or better than most full frame dslr sensor for high or low ISO IQ.

How? Does it have more pixels than the Canon sensor? Can it resolve as many lines per mm with a lens set at f/11?

Imagine what if Canon have technologies similar to what Sony, Fuji and those phone sensor makers have to put into the latest camera? Is Canon supposed to be the leader or we are expecting too much?

You have no idea what you are talking about, with all due respect. Canon holds many patents on sensor technology that Sony and Fuji have no access to. It is Sony and Fuji who wish they have Canon's on chip per pixel noise reduction technology, not vice versa.

What makes you think that, when Sony's current generation of sensors are clearly delivering dramatically less read noise and greater dynamic range with greater pixel density without Canon's technology?

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com