Canon 580EX II speedlite: correct exposure

[ffabrici]

In my experience, the cure is the following:

If the flash gun head is in "normal" position you can:

1) bias the exposure by EV+ correction until you get the exposure you want. I always use +1/3EV or you can

2) program the flash to be wireless master after which the exposure is increased (apparently it then doesn't read the distance metric from the lens which often causes under exposure)

Tilt the flash one step upwards (bounce) and the exposure should be correct.

Good luck!

 

[plevyadophy]

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Thanks dude,

but I think I have had enough reading on something I shouldn't have to read that much about at all in the first place! )

I really do find the Canon flash system absurd. Based on my reading (those links I provided above), I conducted another experiment. This time I framed a scene, shot the first one setting the camera to Auto AF mode (i.e. cam decides which, and how many, of the 45 AF point to use) and then took a second shot (keeping the framing the same) but this time used only the central AF point. To my horror the two images were vastly different. The first shot, beause the majority of the AF points happend to focus on a dark item that was nearer to me than the rest of the scene, produced a much brighter image. That's plain rubbish!! None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene. For the love of God I don't see why Canon have llinked exposure with focus (I wouldn't mind such a linkage, but only if I explicitly choose it for some reason).

As I write, I am minded to sell the damn thing and stick to using my Metz gun in Manual Mode, or Auto (Thyristor) Mode with FEC, for consistent and sensible exposure and ways of working.

Regards,

ETTL II is not focus point linked. Watch the 3rd video - ETTL II metering.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/masterclass/canon_flash.do

Thanks for that pal.

Just watched it.

Well, I can assure you that I am getting focus-point linked expsoures. I checked by doing another test last night.

So this tells me, at a guess, that the body I am using/testing with (1D Mark I) is ETTL, but not ETTL II compatible. If I am wrong, then there must be something wrong with the communication between camera and flash.

And it doesn't bloody well help that the manual doesn't tell you which cams are ETTL II compatible, and nor does the flash readout let you know whether you are working in ETTL or ETTL II mode.

Camera metering modes have bearing on flash exposure either. You have 3 choices. Evaluative or average which you can only change through your in camera menus (if you have that feature) or use FEL which turns it into a spot meter.

My reading, those links I posted previously, and I also think the manual hints at it, indicates that the camera metering modes do indeed have a bearing on how the flash behaves (God in heaven knows why though!!)

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

 

[plevyadophy]

I purchased a Canon 580EX II Speedlite on Saturday, and to be honest I ain't too pleased with it given its high price. I really don't think Canon know how to do flash.

Anyway, the thing that really worries/surprises/irritates me the most is the apparant 1-stop under-exposure across all exposure modes.

I am wondering, do I have a dud copy of the flashgun or is this how the gun is supposed to work by design?

I set my camera up in Manual exposure mode at settings of 1/125, f5.6, ISO200 and was testing indoors during the evening. When I compared shots with my Metz flashgun, I found that the Metz shots were nice and bright/well exposed but the Canon Speedlite always seemed to render an image at around middle grey i.e. around 126 on a histogram. The difference between the Metz shots and those of Canon was around 1 to 1.3 EV. I also have access to other brand's guns (Olympus, Sony) and they too render a brigter image.

So is this new fangled Canon E-TTL/E-TTL II supposed to work that way? Or am I in need of a firmware update or new gun?

Advise and experiences appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Going over things again, I think I may have found a partial solution.

Buried in that pile of junk Custom Function Menu (why the f* can't it be a descriptive menu rather than the crypic "Cee Dot Fhn Dash Zero" (C.Fn-0x) whatever bullsh!t?!!!) I found a setting enabled that when disabled seemed to make a difference for the better.

The setting was Custom Function 06 (Quickflash with continuous shot).

I disabled it and the subsequent flash exposures worked out much brighter.

However, Canon's implementation of Auto (thyristor) Mode (Canon Speak = External Manual Auto), found at Custom Function 05, still behaves poorly; underexposing big time, and stupidly not allowing any FEC unless you happen to be shooting a EOS 1D Mark III or later body (a limitation not found on the Metz 54 flash).

I am also still struggling with the fact that where in the scene I happen to focus determines what the flash exposure will be. A damned nuisance that I wish I could disable.

 

[Scott Larson]

Buried in that pile of junk Custom Function Menu (why the f* can't it be a descriptive menu rather than the crypic "Cee Dot Fhn Dash Zero" (C.Fn-0x) whatever bullsh!t?!!!)

Canon fixed that in recent camera models. You can program all flash functions in the camera menu. You never have to hit a button on the flash except to turn it on. Every flash function in the menu has a complete description.

 

[David Hull]

Not sure what problem you have but you should not be so bold to call down those of us who are happy with the equipment. They are excellent speedlite's but if you don't like them don't use them.

I will continue to use them and would buy them again

No, no Trevor...You're seeing it all wrong.

"Canon ETTL flash system is a pile of sh!t", the people writing about how to correctly use it are "nerdies" and what is really needed is a "simple system" where you can simply take it out of the box, briefly read the instruction manual, plonked them on our respective cameras, aim, fire and have the exact results we individually expected (... all of us...).

...and since stating such obvious facts attracts a plethora of help, all is good...

PK

I guess some have taken to heart the old George Eastman 1890 ad line (modified slightly for the present day): "You push the button -- the camera does the rest". I think in George Eastman's day, it may have worked that way. With the complexity of some of today’s gear, and the multitude of features offered it doesn’t seem to be that simple. That being said, many seem to have figured it out and have good luck with it.

My advice to this guy would be, if you don't like it, take the damn thing back and buy another Metz. Why all this bitching and bellyaching -- life's too short. Several people have tried to help him, but he clearly doesn’t want help – seems to me he is more interested in venting frustration and bitching than getting to the bottom of how to use the gear.

--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)
-------------------------------------------------

--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/

 

[PhotoKhan]

I guess some have taken to heart the old George Eastman 1890 ad line (modified slightly for the present day): "You push the button -- the camera does the rest". I think in George Eastman's day, it may have worked that way. With the complexity of some of today’s gear, and the multitude of features offered it doesn’t seem to be that simple. That being said, many seem to have figured it out and have good luck with it.

My advice to this guy would be, if you don't like it, take the damn thing back and buy another Metz. Why all this bitching and bellyaching -- life's too short. Several people have tried to help him, but he clearly doesn’t want help – seems to me he is more interested in venting frustration and bitching than getting to the bottom of how to use the gear.

What really boggles me is the fact that educated users that know better than using a Canon camera in the "dumb green square" or "P" modes and actually know and apply the advantages of using Av, Tv or M, while fully dominating their camera's operating intricacies, suddenly want to revert to auto-mode when flash is added to the equation.

PK

--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)

 

[Zeee]

I guess some have taken to heart the old George Eastman 1890 ad line (modified slightly for the present day): "You push the button -- the camera does the rest". I think in George Eastman's day, it may have worked that way. With the complexity of some of today’s gear, and the multitude of features offered it doesn’t seem to be that simple. That being said, many seem to have figured it out and have good luck with it.

My advice to this guy would be, if you don't like it, take the damn thing back and buy another Metz. Why all this bitching and bellyaching -- life's too short. Several people have tried to help him, but he clearly doesn’t want help – seems to me he is more interested in venting frustration and bitching than getting to the bottom of how to use the gear.

What really boggles me is the fact that educated users that know better than using a Canon camera in the "dumb green square" or "P" modes and actually know and apply the advantages of using Av, Tv or M, while fully dominating their camera's operating intricacies, suddenly want to revert to auto-mode when flash is added to the equation.

PK

--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)
-------------------------------------------------

One thing comes to mind is that in all those modes there is at least a camera meter. In a run and gun situation we rely on the ETTL. I prefer to shoot manual flash when I can but there are times I cannot.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

 

[Scott Larson]

My advice to this guy would be, if you don't like it, take the damn thing back and buy another Metz. Why all this bitching and bellyaching -- life's too short.

I used the Metz 54 with my old 1D Mark I and it worked great... until the flash exploded. Then I switched to Canon flashes. The Metz was very simple and reliable.

 

[Scott Larson]

What really boggles me is the fact that educated users that know better than using a Canon camera in the "dumb green square" or "P" modes and actually know and apply the advantages of using Av, Tv or M, while fully dominating their camera's operating intricacies, suddenly want to revert to auto-mode when flash is added to the equation.

My excuse is that I don't use flash very often. When I do, I always get surprises with Canon flashes and it's always a relearning experience. It's seems like adding a little light to a scene should be simple but Canon flashes somehow make that complicated. I've been tempted to just use my old Vivitar varistor flash since I know I can adjust its power with the one control it has.

 

[plevyadophy]

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Thanks dude,

but I think I have had enough reading on something I shouldn't have to read that much about at all in the first place! )

I really do find the Canon flash system absurd. Based on my reading (those links I provided above), I conducted another experiment. This time I framed a scene, shot the first one setting the camera to Auto AF mode (i.e. cam decides which, and how many, of the 45 AF point to use) and then took a second shot (keeping the framing the same) but this time used only the central AF point. To my horror the two images were vastly different. The first shot, beause the majority of the AF points happend to focus on a dark item that was nearer to me than the rest of the scene, produced a much brighter image. That's plain rubbish!! None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene. For the love of God I don't see why Canon have llinked exposure with focus (I wouldn't mind such a linkage, but only if I explicitly choose it for some reason).

As I write, I am minded to sell the damn thing and stick to using my Metz gun in Manual Mode, or Auto (Thyristor) Mode with FEC, for consistent and sensible exposure and ways of working.

Regards,

ETTL II is not focus point linked. Watch the 3rd video - ETTL II metering.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/masterclass/canon_flash.do

Camera metering modes have bearing on flash exposure either. You have 3 choices. Evaluative or average which you can only change through your in camera menus (if you have that feature) or use FEL which turns it into a spot meter.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Further to my previous post, after some digging, I have found out that the camera I am testing with only allows for ETTL (not the Mark II variant). But it is still interesting to note that many folks are still complaining about under-exposure with ETTL Mark II.

 

[plevyadophy]

None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene.

To get the same operation with Canon just use the camera custom function to use Average metering with flash, instead of Evaluative metering!
--
Its RKM

Thanks for that tip.

I will give it a go and get back to you/this thread on I how I got on.

 

[plevyadophy]

Metz and FEC
==========

With my Metz 54 there is some good news and some bad news when using it on the Canon 1D (Mark I).

Good news:

Because the Canon ETTL under-exposes by about a stop, I set the camera body's FEC meter to +0.7. When I shoot like this, the on-camera EXIF data correctly reports an image as having been taken with +0.7 FEC.

Now here's the interesting bit. If I then set +1 FEC on the flash gun itself wonderful things happen. The on-camera EXIF readout reports that I have an image with +1 FEC but the resultant image brightness is clearly that of an image with +1.7 FEC (i.e. camera body FEC plus flashgun FEC). Cool eh? So you can set the on-camera FEC as a baseline, forget about it and then use the on-camera FEC as per normal.

Well, erm sort of because ....

Bad news:

Randomly you end up with images that are grossly underexposed, and then after a while the flashgun locks up and you have to turn it off and on again.

Oh well (

Metz and Auto with FEC
==============

Generally speaking (I say generally because our Metz gun is made for numerous systems) your manual is correct, FEC does work in Metz Auto mode; the problem is that the manual is pretty much the same for each system the guns are made for with only minor variations to account for the system the particular model is made for. Added to that is the fact that the Canon system, judging by your experience and mine, has a particular problem with the Metz Auto mode and FEC which either Metz weren't aware of when the manual was printed or perhaps will be addressed by way of firmware update. But interestingly, it appears that the Canon variant of this mode, when used on a EOS-1D Mark III or later body, seems to work with FEC.

Metz Technical Support
==============

A tip.

My advice to you is to only deal with Metz HQ in Germany.

The three guys there (I am not sure they are all still there) are absolutely brilliant. They usualy reply within seven days and have an in-depth knowledge of their flash systems. I recall that one of them was exceptionally knowledgeable and helpful. One of them though is a bit anal if you ask something he deems too techie/nerdy; he gets all precious and defensive, as if he fears you are gonna steal some trade secret (I had to tell him off once because of that attitude when I asked a simple question; but other than that one time I have found Metz Tech Support in Germany to be a joy to deal with). I get the distinct impression that these guys are nerds who love Metz; I am not convinced that the other tech support departments around the world are as knowledgeable or passionate.

I can't remember their names, as I am bad with names, but I think I can find out and probably have somewhere their individual Metz email addresses. If you want that info please remind me by way of a Private Message.

Warm regards,

plevyadophy

 

[Zeee]

None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene.

To get the same operation with Canon just use the camera custom function to use Average metering with flash, instead of Evaluative metering!
--
Its RKM

Thanks for that tip.

I will give it a go and get back to you/this thread on I how I got on.

I mentioned that earlier. Be careful as average is metering the whole scene. Not recommended for outdoors or very large venues.

ETTL isolates the closest object and meters off that. ETTL uses the same metering system as the camera metering system, just not the camera metering modes. Thus the two settings you can only get to via the in camera menus - Evaluative and Average. The other option is FEL which turns it into spot metering.

Since ETTL is isolating the closest object and uses the same metering system it is subject to being fooled like the camera can be. A bride in a white dress on her own, a groom in a black tux on his own and the bride and groom together will all reflect light back differently.

I figure they developed ETTL to overcome one of Auto/Thyristor's disadvantages. ETTL does a pre flash and pre-determines the correct flash output. Auto measures the flash duration during the actual flash exposure and it has to shut the flash off and drain the flash tubes before the foreground is overexposed. Auto is decades old and proven tech but suffers this one thing which I have found only happens using very high ISO's, when the aperture is wide open and the shutter is slow. It just can't shut down fast enough. In ETTL it can do it because the flash output is pre-determined.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

 

[plevyadophy]

Metz and FEC

With my Metz 54 there is some good news and some bad news when using it on the Canon 1D (Mark I).

Good news:

Because the Canon ETTL under-exposes by about a stop, I set the camera body's FEC meter to +0.7. When I shoot like this, the on-camera EXIF data correctly reports an image as having been taken with +0.7 FEC.

Now here's the interesting bit. If I then set +1 FEC on the flash gun itself wonderful things happen. The on-camera EXIF readout reports that I have an image with +1 FEC but the resultant image brightness is clearly that of an image with +1.7 FEC (i.e. camera body FEC plus flashgun FEC). Cool eh? So you can set the on-camera FEC as a baseline, forget about it and then use the on-camera FEC as per normal.

Well, erm sort of because ....

Bad news:

Randomly you end up with images that are grossly underexposed, and then after a while the flashgun locks up and you have to turn it off and on again.

Oh well (

Metz and Auto with FEC

Generally speaking (I say generally because our Metz gun is made for numerous systems) your manual is correct, FEC does work in Metz Auto mode; the problem is that the manual is pretty much the same for each system the guns are made for with only minor variations to account for the system the particular model is made for. Added to that is the fact that the Canon system, judging by your experience and mine, has a particular problem with the Metz Auto mode and FEC which either Metz weren't aware of when the manual was printed or perhaps will be addressed by way of firmware update. But interestingly, it appears that the Canon variant of this mode, when used on a EOS-1D Mark III or later body, seems to work with FEC.

Metz Technical Support

A tip.

My advice to you is to only deal with Metz HQ in Germany.

The three guys there (I am not sure they are all still there) are absolutely brilliant. They usualy reply within seven days and have an in-depth knowledge of their flash systems. I recall that one of them was exceptionally knowledgeable and helpful. One of them though is a bit anal if you ask something he deems too techie/nerdy; he gets all precious and defensive, as if he fears you are gonna steal some trade secret (I had to tell him off once because of that attitude when I asked a simple question; but other than that one time I have found Metz Tech Support in Germany to be a joy to deal with). I get the distinct impression that these guys are nerds who love Metz; I am not convinced that the other tech support departments around the world are as knowledgeable or passionate.

I can't remember their names, as I am bad with names, but I think I can find out and probably have somewhere their individual Metz email addresses. If you want that info please remind me by way of a Private Message.

Warm regards,

plevyadophy

 

[Zeee]

Metz and FEC
==========

With my Metz 54 there is some good news and some bad news when using it on the Canon 1D (Mark I).

Good news:

Because the Canon ETTL under-exposes by about a stop, I set the camera body's FEC meter to +0.7. When I shoot like this, the on-camera EXIF data correctly reports an image as having been taken with +0.7 FEC.

Now here's the interesting bit. If I then set +1 FEC on the flash gun itself wonderful things happen. The on-camera EXIF readout reports that I have an image with +1 FEC but the resultant image brightness is clearly that of an image with +1.7 FEC (i.e. camera body FEC plus flashgun FEC). Cool eh? So you can set the on-camera FEC as a baseline, forget about it and then use the on-camera FEC as per normal.

Well, erm sort of because ....

Bad news:

Randomly you end up with images that are grossly underexposed, and then after a while the flashgun locks up and you have to turn it off and on again.

Oh well (

Metz and Auto with FEC
==============

Generally speaking (I say generally because our Metz gun is made for numerous systems) your manual is correct, FEC does work in Metz Auto mode; the problem is that the manual is pretty much the same for each system the guns are made for with only minor variations to account for the system the particular model is made for. Added to that is the fact that the Canon system, judging by your experience and mine, has a particular problem with the Metz Auto mode and FEC which either Metz weren't aware of when the manual was printed or perhaps will be addressed by way of firmware update. But interestingly, it appears that the Canon variant of this mode, when used on a EOS-1D Mark III or later body, seems to work with FEC.

Do me a favour and ask that question because USA support told me differently. If I man using FEC and I get a warning beep everything lock ups. If FEC is at 0 and I get the warning beep everything is fine. Why is that.

My first venue I shot 20 to 30 images in Auto with no adjustment and they were all acceptable. I then started to mess around with it. I doubt I will FEC in Auto in the near future as this is the reason I purchased it, to have something I could coast through at less critical events. I'll reserve using FEC for when I'm ETTL for now.

I will ask the same question and see what the Germans tell me.

Metz Technical Support
==============

A tip.

My advice to you is to only deal with Metz HQ in Germany.

The three guys there (I am not sure they are all still there) are absolutely brilliant. They usualy reply within seven days and have an in-depth knowledge of their flash systems. I recall that one of them was exceptionally knowledgeable and helpful. One of them though is a bit anal if you ask something he deems too techie/nerdy; he gets all precious and defensive, as if he fears you are gonna steal some trade secret (I had to tell him off once because of that attitude when I asked a simple question; but other than that one time I have found Metz Tech Support in Germany to be a joy to deal with). I get the distinct impression that these guys are nerds who love Metz; I am not convinced that the other tech support departments around the world are as knowledgeable or passionate.

I can't remember their names, as I am bad with names, but I think I can find out and probably have somewhere their individual Metz email addresses. If you want that info please remind me by way of a Private Message.

Warm regards,

plevyadophy

So that can be found on the metz.com site and the support page?

This it?

http://www.metz.de/en/service-support/contact/contact-person/kontaktformular/support-technik-foto-elektronik.html

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

 

[Nadine Ohara]

I shoot weddings and own and use the 580EX, 580EXII, and a Metz 54MZ4-i, with various modules. I use them on a 20D, 40D and 5D.

1. The cameras I have are all ETTL II. I hate Evaluative flash metering because it is hard to predict and does things like underexpose in a big way whenever there is anything white in the frame. Your 1 stop underexposure across the board is normal. It also practically shuts down whenever it sees a specular reflection in the frame, such as shooting into a mirror, or when there is a metal, polished object in the frame. I use Averaging flash metering which is easier to understand and predict. If you are used to auto thyristor flash metering, it is similar.

However, the metering pattern in the camera (used for both flash and ambient) makes a big difference in flash results. On the cameras I own, the metering pattern is a 7x5 grid. On the 1 series cameras, the metering pattern is more like center weighted averaging patterns.

I currently use the 580EXII on my main camera (5D) because of several factors I don't like about the Metz 54, which I prefer for metering only. I just learned to deal with the underexposure.

2. On my cameras, if you have flash comp set on the body, it is overriden by any flash comp set on the flash (not additive). If the flash comp on the flash is 0, the flash comp on the body (if any) takes over.

3. With the Metz 54, auto thyristor comp indeed works. However, every so often, it will suddenly let go of the comp and revert to 0. I also asked a Metz (Bogen) rep about this. He gave me basically the same answer--flash comp on the flash was not designed for auto thyristor mode. Also, sometimes it will go crazy and do a full blast.

4. With the Metz 54, the ETTL implementation is an emulation. The ETTL sensor (don't even know what it does) is located in the lower left corner of the flash head reflector, as you look at the flash head. When you put something over the flash head, like an OmniBounce, it overexposes. The ETTL emulation is slightly better than Canon's implementation of ETTL (re underexposure).

5. The Metz 54 does not recycle as fast the 580s, which is an annoyance for me, shooting weddings. It is more fragile than the 580s. I've had it in for repairs on several different things a couple of time. It is in for repair right now, although this last was my fault--broken foot). I've fried the flash tube 2 times.

6. I use the 3102 M4 module for Canon, but used in auto thyristor, you are limited to manual camera modes, which is fine, but I do switch to AV or TV sometimes. In TV, auto thyristor does not work at all--AV is OK re aperture, but the shutter speed goes to the sync limit. Not great.

However, a little known fact is that the 3102 M (1 or no number) module allows you to use auto thyristor with Canon in AV, TV and even program. Metz auto thyristor is great--there are annoyances, though, and nothing is perfect, but the system is predictable because it is easy to understand.

7. With the 580EX II, be aware of the problems associated with the foot. The foot can prevent good contact with the hotshoe, causing the flash to go full blast. The foot can become loose over time and you can go in there and tighten it up. Look up the blog of a photographer who gives instructions (Shimworld + 580EX in Google). Or the hotshoe plate on your camera can become loose, which you can tighten.

Also, the 580EX II has thermal overload protection built in, and you can't turn it off. I've run into that a couple of times--all at the worst moments. I now use nothing but Sanyo Eneloops with a smart charger. They seem to do better re hitting the thermal threshold.

8. I use the 580EX II primarily because I can use high ISO and it recycles fast. I have the custom function set to use the big dial to compensate. I've long gotten used to the underexposure and just deal with it.

 

[Zeee]

I shoot weddings and own and use the 580EX, 580EXII, and a Metz 54MZ4-i, with various modules. I use them on a 20D, 40D and 5D.

1. The cameras I have are all ETTL II. I hate Evaluative flash metering because it is hard to predict and does things like underexpose in a big way whenever there is anything white in the frame. Your 1 stop underexposure across the board is normal. It also practically shuts down whenever it sees a specular reflection in the frame, such as shooting into a mirror, or when there is a metal, polished object in the frame. I use Averaging flash metering which is easier to understand and predict. If you are used to auto thyristor flash metering, it is similar.

However, the metering pattern in the camera (used for both flash and ambient) makes a big difference in flash results. On the cameras I own, the metering pattern is a 7x5 grid. On the 1 series cameras, the metering pattern is more like center weighted averaging patterns.

I currently use the 580EXII on my main camera (5D) because of several factors I don't like about the Metz 54, which I prefer for metering only. I just learned to deal with the underexposure.

2. On my cameras, if you have flash comp set on the body, it is overriden by any flash comp set on the flash (not additive). If the flash comp on the flash is 0, the flash comp on the body (if any) takes over.

3. With the Metz 54, auto thyristor comp indeed works. However, every so often, it will suddenly let go of the comp and revert to 0. I also asked a Metz (Bogen) rep about this. He gave me basically the same answer--flash comp on the flash was not designed for auto thyristor mode. Also, sometimes it will go crazy and do a full blast.

I just posted at Metz support. I'll see what they say.

4. With the Metz 54, the ETTL implementation is an emulation. The ETTL sensor (don't even know what it does) is located in the lower left corner of the flash head reflector, as you look at the flash head. When you put something over the flash head, like an OmniBounce, it overexposes. The ETTL emulation is slightly better than Canon's implementation of ETTL (re underexposure).

I have noticed that as well. It is more accurate in ETTL. Now I know why.

5. The Metz 54 does not recycle as fast the 580s, which is an annoyance for me, shooting weddings. It is more fragile than the 580s. I've had it in for repairs on several different things a couple of time. It is in for repair right now, although this last was my fault--broken foot). I've fried the flash tube 2 times.

In my review I stated the flash head is not as sturdy and fluent in motion as the 580.

Hopefully I will have better luck. Have not used it enough to notice the recycle times. I did not think it was all that bad. I am using Ansmann NiNH 2500m rechargeable batteries.

I read a user review at B&H, He stated that this flash ate batteries. 24 for 600 images. I got well over 300 on one set of the Ansmanm's. I will do some tests. Gotta use high quality batteries any time.

6. I use the 3102 M4 module for Canon, but used in auto thyristor, you are limited to manual camera modes, which is fine, but I do switch to AV or TV sometimes. In TV, auto thyristor does not work at all--AV is OK re aperture, but the shutter speed goes to the sync limit. Not great.

I'll be using with camera in M mode. Outdoors in AV my 580 will be on the camera.

However, a little known fact is that the 3102 M (1 or no number) module allows you to use auto thyristor with Canon in AV, TV and even program. Metz auto thyristor is great--there are annoyances, though, and nothing is perfect, but the system is predictable because it is easy to understand.

7. With the 580EX II, be aware of the problems associated with the foot. The foot can prevent good contact with the hotshoe, causing the flash to go full blast. The foot can become loose over time and you can go in there and tighten it up. Look up the blog of a photographer who gives instructions (Shimworld + 580EX in Google). Or the hotshoe plate on your camera can become loose, which you can tighten.

Also, the 580EX II has thermal overload protection built in, and you can't turn it off. I've run into that a couple of times--all at the worst moments. I now use nothing but Sanyo Eneloops with a smart charger. They seem to do better re hitting the thermal threshold.

8. I use the 580EX II primarily because I can use high ISO and it recycles fast. I have the custom function set to use the big dial to compensate. I've long gotten used to the underexposure and just deal with it.

I have noticed this with high ISO. Canon will work whereas the Metz won't. All systems have their positives and negatives. Both the Metz and 580 will have their places in my arsenal. When I want to take it easy I can set the Metz on Auto, ISO 1600 and just shoot away all evening.

Thanks for this very informative post. Answered a few questions I had.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

 

[Zeee]

I shoot weddings and own and use the 580EX, 580EXII, and a Metz 54MZ4-i, with various modules. I use them on a 20D, 40D and 5D.

1. The cameras I have are all ETTL II. I hate Evaluative flash metering because it is hard to predict and does things like underexpose in a big way whenever there is anything white in the frame. Your 1 stop underexposure across the board is normal. It also practically shuts down whenever it sees a specular reflection in the frame, such as shooting into a mirror, or when there is a metal, polished object in the frame. I use Averaging flash metering which is easier to understand and predict. If you are used to auto thyristor flash metering, it is similar.

However, the metering pattern in the camera (used for both flash and ambient) makes a big difference in flash results. On the cameras I own, the metering pattern is a 7x5 grid. On the 1 series cameras, the metering pattern is more like center weighted averaging patterns.

I currently use the 580EXII on my main camera (5D) because of several factors I don't like about the Metz 54, which I prefer for metering only. I just learned to deal with the underexposure.

2. On my cameras, if you have flash comp set on the body, it is overriden by any flash comp set on the flash (not additive). If the flash comp on the flash is 0, the flash comp on the body (if any) takes over.

3. With the Metz 54, auto thyristor comp indeed works. However, every so often, it will suddenly let go of the comp and revert to 0. I also asked a Metz (Bogen) rep about this. He gave me basically the same answer--flash comp on the flash was not designed for auto thyristor mode. Also, sometimes it will go crazy and do a full blast.

4. With the Metz 54, the ETTL implementation is an emulation. The ETTL sensor (don't even know what it does) is located in the lower left corner of the flash head reflector, as you look at the flash head. When you put something over the flash head, like an OmniBounce, it overexposes. The ETTL emulation is slightly better than Canon's implementation of ETTL (re underexposure).

5. The Metz 54 does not recycle as fast the 580s, which is an annoyance for me, shooting weddings. It is more fragile than the 580s. I've had it in for repairs on several different things a couple of time. It is in for repair right now, although this last was my fault--broken foot). I've fried the flash tube 2 times.

6. I use the 3102 M4 module for Canon, but used in auto thyristor, you are limited to manual camera modes, which is fine, but I do switch to AV or TV sometimes. In TV, auto thyristor does not work at all--AV is OK re aperture, but the shutter speed goes to the sync limit. Not great.

However, a little known fact is that the 3102 M (1 or no number) module allows you to use auto thyristor with Canon in AV, TV and even program. Metz auto thyristor is great--there are annoyances, though, and nothing is perfect, but the system is predictable because it is easy to understand.

7. With the 580EX II, be aware of the problems associated with the foot. The foot can prevent good contact with the hotshoe, causing the flash to go full blast. The foot can become loose over time and you can go in there and tighten it up. Look up the blog of a photographer who gives instructions (Shimworld + 580EX in Google). Or the hotshoe plate on your camera can become loose, which you can tighten.

Also, the 580EX II has thermal overload protection built in, and you can't turn it off. I've run into that a couple of times--all at the worst moments. I now use nothing but Sanyo Eneloops with a smart charger. They seem to do better re hitting the thermal threshold.

8. I use the 580EX II primarily because I can use high ISO and it recycles fast. I have the custom function set to use the big dial to compensate. I've long gotten used to the underexposure and just deal with it.

Here is my review on the Metz vs Canon

Pros

1. Auto has excellent consistent exposures.

2. TTL is very close to the mark.

3. LCD screen is lights up with any button that is pushed. I love that feature.

4. Menu system is easy and very intuitive.

5. Audible warning for potential underexposure.

6. Audible warning for correct exposures.

7. You can access key settings like flash EV & ISO through the camera info screen (if your camera has this
feature).

8. Data transfer between camera and flash for ISO, aperture and lens zoom.

9. Low battery warning indicator.

10.Good battery life when using high quality batteries.

11. Good recycle time. Same specs as my Canon 580 EXII.

12. Auto Zoom from 24-105.

13. Manual flash range = 1/1 to 1/256. Canon = 1/128.

14. Great colour - whites are clean looking.

15. USB port for firmware upgrades.

16. Extended zoom feature.

17. Crop adjustment for crop cameras.

18. Metal foot - upgrade from AF-1

19. Master and Slave control

Cons

1. Instructions are not easy to read.

2. Although the intsructions are not the best the menu system is easy to use. It takes on average one or
two extra steps than my Canon. At least I can see what I'm doing now.

3. No HSS in Auto mode but is there in TTL.

4. No EV in Auto mode. For EV you need to switch to TTL.

5. Foot lock design is not as good as Canon 580EX II.

6. Flash head rotation and tilt is not as fluid as Canon.

7. Flash head release button flush with body and not as easy to press as my Canon 580EX II.

8. Flash head does not rotate 190 degrees on both sides. 120 to the right.

9. Not weather sealed.

10. Secondary reflector is just to bright to be really useful.

11. No sync port. Not a big deal to me.

12. Cannot be used with very high ISO whereas Canon can.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

 

[plevyadophy]

None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene.

To get the same operation with Canon just use the camera custom function to use Average metering with flash, instead of Evaluative metering!
--
Its RKM

Thanks for that tip.

I will give it a go and get back to you/this thread on I how I got on.

I mentioned that earlier. Be careful as average is metering the whole scene. Not recommended for outdoors or very large venues.

ETTL isolates the closest object and meters off that. ETTL uses the same metering system as the camera metering system, just not the camera metering modes. Thus the two settings you can only get to via the in camera menus - Evaluative and Average. The other option is FEL which turns it into spot metering.

Since ETTL is isolating the closest object and uses the same metering system it is subject to being fooled like the camera can be. A bride in a white dress on her own, a groom in a black tux on his own and the bride and groom together will all reflect light back differently.

I figure they developed ETTL to overcome one of Auto/Thyristor's disadvantages. ETTL does a pre flash and pre-determines the correct flash output. Auto measures the flash duration during the actual flash exposure and it has to shut the flash off and drain the flash tubes before the foreground is overexposed. Auto is decades old and proven tech but suffers this one thing which I have found only happens using very high ISO's, when the aperture is wide open and the shutter is slow. It just can't shut down fast enough. In ETTL it can do it because the flash output is pre-determined.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

That there is a pretty good explanation and example of the pros and cons of TTL flash -v- Auto thyristor flash.

Another advantage of Auto thyristor flash, at least when shooting indoors, is when using long non-stabilised lenses. Let's you are using a 200mm lens. You may decide to shoot in Manual Exposure Mode; so you set your desired f-stop but feel obliged to set your shutter to at least 1/200. Such settings may kill any light that would hit the sensor. Here Auto thyristor flash is great because it will take up any slack and expose the entire scene correctly (of course it kills the ambient so you won't get that warm glow of candle light or a fire place in your shot; instead you will end up with a well lit shot without "atmosphere" but if that's what you want it is cool and will be better than most brands of TTL which will expose your foreground well but leave your background pretty dark).

And because there is no pre-flash with Auto thyristor mode, it greatly reduces the risk of the "lazy eye" syndrome in portraits (caused by people with quick reflexes squinting in resposne to the pre-flash of TTL flash and then being caught with their eyes half open on the actual exposure).

Regards,

 

[plevyadophy]

Metz and FEC
==========

With my Metz 54 there is some good news and some bad news when using it on the Canon 1D (Mark I).

Good news:

Because the Canon ETTL under-exposes by about a stop, I set the camera body's FEC meter to +0.7. When I shoot like this, the on-camera EXIF data correctly reports an image as having been taken with +0.7 FEC.

Now here's the interesting bit. If I then set +1 FEC on the flash gun itself wonderful things happen. The on-camera EXIF readout reports that I have an image with +1 FEC but the resultant image brightness is clearly that of an image with +1.7 FEC (i.e. camera body FEC plus flashgun FEC). Cool eh? So you can set the on-camera FEC as a baseline, forget about it and then use the on-camera FEC as per normal.

Well, erm sort of because ....

Bad news:

Randomly you end up with images that are grossly underexposed, and then after a while the flashgun locks up and you have to turn it off and on again.

Oh well (

Metz and Auto with FEC
==============

Generally speaking (I say generally because our Metz gun is made for numerous systems) your manual is correct, FEC does work in Metz Auto mode; the problem is that the manual is pretty much the same for each system the guns are made for with only minor variations to account for the system the particular model is made for. Added to that is the fact that the Canon system, judging by your experience and mine, has a particular problem with the Metz Auto mode and FEC which either Metz weren't aware of when the manual was printed or perhaps will be addressed by way of firmware update. But interestingly, it appears that the Canon variant of this mode, when used on a EOS-1D Mark III or later body, seems to work with FEC.

Do me a favour and ask that question because USA support told me differently. If I man using FEC and I get a warning beep everything lock ups. If FEC is at 0 and I get the warning beep everything is fine. Why is that.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I was referring to the Canon variant of Auto thyristor flash on their own flash, the 580EX II. It, according to the manual, works fine with the EOS 1D Mark III.

My first venue I shot 20 to 30 images in Auto with no adjustment and they were all acceptable. I then started to mess around with it. I doubt I will FEC in Auto in the near future as this is the reason I purchased it, to have something I could coast through at less critical events. I'll reserve using FEC for when I'm ETTL for now.

I will ask the same question and see what the Germans tell me.

Metz Technical Support
==============

A tip.

My advice to you is to only deal with Metz HQ in Germany.

The three guys there (I am not sure they are all still there) are absolutely brilliant. They usualy reply within seven days and have an in-depth knowledge of their flash systems. I recall that one of them was exceptionally knowledgeable and helpful. One of them though is a bit anal if you ask something he deems too techie/nerdy; he gets all precious and defensive, as if he fears you are gonna steal some trade secret (I had to tell him off once because of that attitude when I asked a simple question; but other than that one time I have found Metz Tech Support in Germany to be a joy to deal with). I get the distinct impression that these guys are nerds who love Metz; I am not convinced that the other tech support departments around the world are as knowledgeable or passionate.

I can't remember their names, as I am bad with names, but I think I can find out and probably have somewhere their individual Metz email addresses. If you want that info please remind me by way of a Private Message.

Warm regards,

plevyadophy

So that can be found on the metz.com site and the support page?

This it?

http://www.metz.de/en/service-support/contact/contact-person/kontaktformular/support-technik-foto-elektronik.html

Well, I don't ever recall using that online form (I usually avoid using them if I can). But yeah, it looks like the thing to use to speak to Germany.

Whenever I have contacted them I have used a proper email address. Remind me and I will dig it up for you.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams