What's with all the belligerent 5d2 posting?

[cbspenc]

There was a football coach that did nothing but scream and yell at his players and the team did nothing but go downhill,

but then there was a coach that realized that the kid that made a mistake knew he made a mistake but tried to help him learn what caused the error and how to correct it in the future, and, yes, the team did go on to the National Championship.

So here, the shooter can see that the shots are of focus and maybe we should have helped determine why the shots were out of focus?

There a lots of things that could contribute to an out of focus shot most of which come down to operator error in some shape or form, but if the operator does not know what caused the error, then they cannot easily corrct the problem. Give them some suggestions that you remember from when your shots were as out of focus or not properly framed.

Just because the person has the money to purchase a good piece of equipment does not mean that they are therefore an expert and I do not think that we should throw rocks just because the poster is not an expert. Before the rocks come at me for that statement, I do agree that people think that they are experts just because they have a fancy piece of equipment, which is not the case. An expert can make a good shot with a good camera as well as the fancy camera, and they know it. The fancy camera just lets the expert stretch the limits of making the great shot.

So let's think about taking every not so good image as a opportunity to help someone become a better photogapher by treating the shot as a request for review and comment, not just bellyaching.

Off soapbox.
--
-----
Carl S.

 

[windyrum]

Some things are better left unsaid. Perhaps, if anything, at least post something constructive. Use your professional worldly wisdom to help a brutha out.

Cheers,
--
CW

 

[windyrum]

I would expect that as an enthusiast message board, all of us so called enthusiasts would have formed some sort of a fraternity - at least relatively benign commentary where someone could ask a question, or post some photos and get some realistic advice or help on improving their skills.

This kind of dialogue makes darn near everyone either not want to post their pictures or not want to revisit the site.

I'm on other enthusiast websites (watches and wine in particular) and boy, there you can sound like a complete moron and everyone wants to sound like an expert and provide great feedback. Here, I dunno, seems to me that there's a measuring contest going on and no one's ready to whip it out.

Perhaps rather than having boards divided by equipment, we should have a pros section and an enthusiasts section and you pros can go smoke cigars on your own.

That or do up this board like the Apple support site where pros get some credit for quality answers...

Cheers,

--
CW

 

[mike_2008]

The OP hit the nail on the head, there's a lot of frustration going around and people are lashing out, and feeling totally justified in doing it as it's c&c... which it's not, it's just bashing. There's a kinda silly idea at the heart of this anyway, out of the studio you won't be able to tell the difference between a 100% crop from a 5D2 or from a 5D in two different scenes. One thing it seems no one has said to dark aspect is that the problem is that he needs to put the focus on the eyes of the subject when there is a shallow dof.

Also have a look at the nikon d3 forum. There is a thread with people showing their favorite shots from 2008. Some very nice, normal looking stuff, not a million miles away from what was getting slammed here. The fact is there's a little bit too much anxiety from the 'pros' in the canon forum imo.

--
http://mike2008.smugmug.com

 

[Jeff Seltzer]

That's all well and good. But, again, things are being taken out of context. In the thread in which this is all in reference to, the OP posted a review of his new 5dii, and posted the images as examples of its capabilities. Or, to be more percise, examples of its limitations. But, the examples were out of focus (among other problmes, related to the photographer's technique, not the camera). I'm all for constructive criticism, but in this case ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30430822 ) there's a broader issue, which is welll discussed in the thread.

There was a football coach that did nothing but scream and yell at
his players and the team did nothing but go downhill,

but then there was a coach that realized that the kid that made a
mistake knew he made a mistake but tried to help him learn what
caused the error and how to correct it in the future, and, yes, the
team did go on to the National Championship.

So here, the shooter can see that the shots are of focus and maybe we
should have helped determine why the shots were out of focus?

There a lots of things that could contribute to an out of focus shot
most of which come down to operator error in some shape or form, but
if the operator does not know what caused the error, then they cannot
easily corrct the problem. Give them some suggestions that you
remember from when your shots were as out of focus or not properly
framed.

Just because the person has the money to purchase a good piece of
equipment does not mean that they are therefore an expert and I do
not think that we should throw rocks just because the poster is not
an expert. Before the rocks come at me for that statement, I do
agree that people think that they are experts just because they have
a fancy piece of equipment, which is not the case. An expert can
make a good shot with a good camera as well as the fancy camera, and
they know it. The fancy camera just lets the expert stretch the
limits of making the great shot.

So let's think about taking every not so good image as a opportunity
to help someone become a better photogapher by treating the shot as a
request for review and comment, not just bellyaching.

Off soapbox.
--
-----
Carl S.

--
http://www.jeffseltzerphotography.com

 

[matthew Thomas631204]

I'm getting tired of posting info that I believe can help others, only to have it ignored or forgotten because of the endless flood of new topics asking the same, answered questions.

I believe the interface of the actual forum software is partly to blame. DP SHOULD have sticky posts. It should post important, key topics at the top of the list every time so people don't have to keep reposting them every day. Reposting tends to drive people to anger and frustration around here and therein seems to be one of the culprits. It is a waste of time for those that know what they are doing.

For example, the Black Dots issue should be a large, single unified thread, not 1000's of individual ones. Most forums do this, but for some odd reason, DP doesn't.

Perhaps it is because DPreview gets paid by advertisers based on its number of clicks. A simplified, efficient user interface that leads people to the answers they need quickly means less clicks. In the advertising world, we call this sort of site design "clickmongering". As an advertiser, it bothers me and I often recommend my clients avoid advertising at sites that appear to inflate their visitor stats this way.

The forum search seems to be down far more often than it seems to be working. Perhaps this is also by design since having no simple way to jump to answers, visitors go on, generating needless posts that have been answered 100's of times before. This means more clicks, which DPreview can use to justify inflated advertising rates.

In the end, this sort of interface ultimate wastes my time unnecessarily. I suppose each experienced and well-meaning user that comes to recognize this fades away, leaving only those have nothing better to do with their time than posture and troll.

I do this every month or so, and generally come back hoping to see things change. It's too bad because I really do believe that at times, I've been able to help people out in ways that others can't. But I just don't enjoy repeating myself.

Perhaps DP will re-consider the interface design as a culprit of the problem and make it more user-friendly. Perhaps not.

--
http://www.thomasarts.com

 

[mike_2008]

just one last comment jeff, in your initial reply to dark aspects review you critiqued the composition of the 100% crops...! What's that all about? Look, if we need to know how sharp the camera is go look on IR, all the rest is up to us. This is not news. Dark aspect was obviously happy with the 5D2, for him it was an upgrade and he could see the benefits. What are you getting so upset about?

--
http://mike2008.smugmug.com

 

[Jeff Seltzer]

I'm not upset. If he posted some images and said, "hey, what do you all think" that would be one thing. But, he posted those images to illustrate the capabilities of the 5dii. And, when myself, along with many others, called him out on out-of-focus shots that are clearly the result of poor technique, he then "challenged anyone to do better" as if it were impossible to any better.

...and regarding the 100% crops...they are indeed poorly composed. This is the problem. All these people with their new 5dii's and they are forgetting about the fundamentals of good image making. And worse, they are using these images to "help" others make a very expensive decision. In dark's case: poor technique combined with poor composition...and I don't care if they are 100% crops or not - they are NOT just random portions of his original image. What he posted included a subject. If you are going to take a crop, why not make it a good one? The poor composition adds to the overall poor quality of the images, which detracts from the OP's overall message.

Look, if I posted a thread that said "review of the 35L" and then posted a bunch of poorly composed, out-of-focus images, and said "well, here's what the 35L is capable of" I would expect similiar, harsh reactions. Sorry.

OVERALL, I agree with the OP of this thread - there is too much bashing, and a lot of people hide behind the internet and say things they would never say in person. That's not what I'm about - just look at the history of my posts. The ironic thing is that this thread is bashing me to make a point. The OP in this thread too my comments out of context...called me beligerent and thoughtless. Wrong.

just one last comment jeff, in your initial reply to dark aspects
review you critiqued the composition of the 100% crops...! What's
that all about? Look, if we need to know how sharp the camera is go
look on IR, all the rest is up to us. This is not news. Dark aspect
was obviously happy with the 5D2, for him it was an upgrade and he
could see the benefits. What are you getting so upset about?

--
http://mike2008.smugmug.com

--
http://www.jeffseltzerphotography.com

 

[SKReich]

Sorry to have to say it, but I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately, the intemperance on these forums (it's not just the xD forum) is not limited to critiques of other people's photos. I originally joined DPReview to learn more about technique and equipment, to be inspired by the work of others, but if I hoped to become a better photographer from reading these forums, that hope was in vain.

It appears that this, and similar forums on this site have become a venue for people who feel more important when they can level criticism at others: criticism of Canon, criticism of those who don't like Canon, criticism of people who like the 5DII, criticism of people who don't like the 5DII, criticism of people who dare to post a question that was addressed in the forum a year ago (certainly the major problem facing the free world today), and criticism of other people's photos, often in a very negative, non-constructive tone.

I suppose venting their spleen here is better than getting in bar fights, although in a bar fight at least there'd be a chance they'd get the cr*p beat out of them; here, all they manage to do is make themselves feel better and ruin the forum for everyone else. Perhaps DPReview could set up a separate discussion forum just for people who want to *****.........no parameters needed; just ***** about anything they like.........but then the rest of us can have these forums back.

 

[Ravitej Khalsa]

A great yogi once said "You know there are three ways for humans to live. At each other, with each other or for each other. You must chose how you are going to live in your own consciousness."

No matter what the subject is, if kindness is a part of it then there will be no problem. If we learn to cherish each other's very existence and bring harmony to our words, then all will have a place to be. If we can let our egos go we can live without constant conflict.

Take a deep breath. Take several very deep and very long breaths. And remember that all the faiths and all the religions and all the sayers and all the philosophers and even the Beatles say that Love is all you need.

Sat Nam.

 

[Stollen]

ok ...some people find Rosie sexy and hot....from your posting i guess you find her less attractive or maybe ugly...

i guess people differ in their taste and views...but in this forum all views should be respected

if your cell phones take better photos than his 5D II so what?

sorry, it isn't beligerent to point out that posting terrible, out
of focus and uninteresting photos taken with cutting edge camera
technology isn't going to win many favours. those particular shots
you are referring to, well lets say my cell phone could ( and does)
produce better.

it's like going on and on about how beautiful women are and then
citing rosie o'donnel as an example of a beautiful woman.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dipak49ers/sets/

 

[Ian S]

Very good point.

I like to put it this way: You can choose whether to be a source of light or a source of darkness, and there is surely enough darkness in this world already.

As an added bonus, light has a habit of reflecting back to you

A great yogi once said "You know there are three ways for humans to
live. At each other, with each other or for each other. You must
chose how you are going to live in your own consciousness."

No matter what the subject is, if kindness is a part of it then there
will be no problem. If we learn to cherish each other's very
existence and bring harmony to our words, then all will have a place
to be. If we can let our egos go we can live without constant
conflict.

Take a deep breath. Take several very deep and very long breaths. And
remember that all the faiths and all the religions and all the sayers
and all the philosophers and even the Beatles say that Love is all
you need.

Sat Nam.

--
Ian
http://www.monsoonteardrops.com/

 

[vermontphoto]

matthew Thomas wrote:
I suppose each experienced and well-meaning user that

comes to recognize this fades away, leaving only those have nothing
better to do with their time than posture and troll.

That is pretty much my opinion as well.

It's pretty surreal to be out taking great images of the outdoors with a fantastic camera like the 5D MkII for days on end, then to come home and read yet another measurebators ( http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm#measurebator ) post on black dots and how that makes the camera somehow unfit for use.

Another poster compared it to having a new Ferrari, but refusing to drive it because the radio pre-sets don't work. A perfect analogy!

I am pretty sure when Mr. Rockwell (who, IMO, is a much better writer than photographer) wrote his masterpiece "Seven Levels of Photographers" ( http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm ), this site provided much of the inspiration.

--

 

[Shamus1]

Unfortunately there is a lot of negative 'energy' released on this forum, whether its just venting at Canon or other reasons. Most have joined because they either love photography or wish to learn. I'm here for both reasons. The members of DPReview have provided many insights, and sometimes a better way to reach your goal or improve your technique. Its obviously aimed at techniques and gear.

The harsh critiques (you can offer suggestions with being mean or harsh) make many hesitate from posting or even making a comment, but yet there are many brave souls.

Yes, there are some who troll looking for a fight. It's safe on-line. ...and many with true expertise often don't agree, but may have something good to offer.

I continue to particiapte on this forum, read and occasionaly post, as I find the positives here far outweigh the negatives, and most are not 'trolls' or negative. Always a few anywhere you go, not just online.

I have also had the pleasure of making new on-line friends here. There are a lot of truly artistic photographers, and those with a lot of techinical experience here. What a great resource to learn from. I try and learn something every day, whether a new technique, and opinion on a problem, or what not to do.

If everyone treated someone on-line as if they were talking to them face to face, we might get along better. Too much fighting in the world. Let's do what we enjoy - photography.

Have a happy holiday, whatever you celebrate.

 

[Anastigmat]

As a soon-to-be owner of a 5DmkII, I've been browsing this particular
forum more than usual.

GOOD GRIEF!

It is the mob mentality. Passersby who see a person pick up a stone and throws it towards another person may do the same, without even knowing whether the person being thrown at is guilty or not. If someone starts criticizing Canon, others will join in.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-mob-mentality.htm

Tragically, the rise of antisemitism under Hitler and the genocide in Rwanda have been blamed on mob mentality.

 

[harold1968]

on the other hand, its annoying to get people saying the 5DII is cr@p and then showing bad photographs and talking about issues they know nothing about.

the 5DII is a complex beast and beyond most photographers. I'd say you need to have good amateur or professional experience to handle it.

on the other hand we should be a bit nicer, sort of photo camelly, for folk just posting pics to view. As I like to see pics and would prefer to see much more on this forum

As a soon-to-be owner of a 5DmkII, I've been browsing this particular
forum more than usual.

GOOD GRIEF!

It's like there's this moral imperative to humiliate anyone who dare
post less-than-perfect shots.

Ok! We get it! You can criticize others' work! You don't have to be
mean about it! I realize there's a lot of frustration going around
because we've all been waiting for a long time, and there still
haven't been many great sample galleries (or examples for that
matter). But come ON! There's no reason to be mean! The new owner is
excited to have a new camera and may or may not have the skill level
to access all that the 5DmkII has to offer, but so what? I'm tired of
seeing posts like:

-"I'm not sure what your point is: that the 5dii can take
out-of-focus, un-sharp pictures in tough conditions? You win that
challenge."

-"No offense, but they are out of focus, poorly composed, and don't
show me anthing a P&S couldn't do. Ugh. "

-"I think the camera itself is overkill for you if that are the best
sampless you managed to get out of 5d in couple of weeks..."

These are incredibly thoughtless and unnecessary comments which
should have been kept to posters' selves. I expect more from DP'ers.
I hope those of you who find yourselves s in a situation where you're
underwhelmed by the performance of the 5DmkII can stop and take a
moment to ask yourself whether you're actually making a value-added
comment, or whether you're taking advantage of the internet's
anonymity to vent your own frustrations at the cost of someone else's
feelings.

As for me, regardless of the quality of my shots, I don't ever plan
on posting my work to this site. I'm really disappointed in how many
trolls have made their way into this forum.

 

[brittonx]

Do any of these people who are being so critical remember what it was like when they weren't as good as they believe they are now?

Sounds like a bunch of elitists.
I'm sure glad I didn't jump on the Canon bandwagon.

--Britton
http://brittonx.smugmug.com/