Why WOULDN'T I get a Fuji S2 Pro?

[Dave Dugal]

This isn't meant to incite a ruckus, but I'm actually genuinely confused.

I had my heart and budget set on a nice, new Nikon D100 since I even heard the beast existed. Now a new player enters the fray with clearly superior clarity, higher resolution and additional features (ie. FireWire, flash sync, etc.), not to mention the ability to use all the Nikkor lenses I've been pining after.

So the question becomes, why WOULDN'T I forego the Nikon D100 and simply pick up a Fuji S2 Pro, which is due to arrive around about the same time as the D100? Am I missing something obvious?

Being a relatively high-end consumer (as opposed to a pro), I want to buy "the" camera that I can use and be impressed with for at least a while.

Thanks in advance for your POVs!

• Dave (Confused in NH)

 

[Bill Dewey]

Dave, I am a former Fuji S1 owner, and a very happy one at that. I purchased the S1 instead of the D1 a few years ago for two reasons. S1 color was much better and it was a lot cheaper.

Now, on to why I wouldn't purchase an S2. The S1 has a very annoying "feature" surrounding the tripod mount. It is possible, according to Fuji, to "overtighten" a tripod screw thus breaking a circuit board which sits right above the tripod mount. A number of S1 users that I have spoken with have had this happen which results in all of the digital bits no longer working. In my case I had the same symptoms, even though I hadn't even attached a tripod yet, but I got lucky. I had purchased locally and the dealer did an "over-the-counter" swap. The other folks were informed by Fuji that this was not a repair covered by warranty, about a $300 repair I believe. If Fuji hasn't either fixed this on the S2 or won't stand behind it as warranty, I wouldn't buy the S2.

As to color, ease-of-use, etc., if it is as good as the S1 it will be a great camera. Don't be fooled by the "12mp interpolated" image size. My tests on the S1 showed me that it was better to interpolate-up outside the camera. Your compute, and software, are much more powerful than the processor in the camera.

The other reason, for me, that the D100 is more attratctive is that I have a D1H, and I suspect that the workflow of the D100 will be closer to the D1H than will the S2. I also like the ability on the D100 to add the grip and then get the electronic release. Others will point out the faster flash sync, for me this is not a big deal.

However, I wouldn't be at all unhappy to use either camera, as long as Fuji has fixed the mechanical issue with the tripod mount. I would make a call to Fuji support and specifically ask about this before I purchased.

This isn't meant to incite a ruckus, but I'm actually genuinely
confused.

I had my heart and budget set on a nice, new Nikon D100 since I
even heard the beast existed. Now a new player enters the fray
with clearly superior clarity, higher resolution and additional
features (ie. FireWire, flash sync, etc.), not to mention the
ability to use all the Nikkor lenses I've been pining after.

So the question becomes, why WOULDN'T I forego the Nikon D100 and
simply pick up a Fuji S2 Pro, which is due to arrive around about
the same time as the D100? Am I missing something obvious?

Being a relatively high-end consumer (as opposed to a pro), I want
to buy "the" camera that I can use and be impressed with for at
least a while.

Thanks in advance for your POVs!

• Dave (Confused in NH)

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

 

[Dave Dugal]

Thanks for the reply, Bill! I hadn't heard about the tripod mount issue with the S1. I'll have to do some reading in the Fuji SLR forum.

The grip, for me, isn't as much of a concern, and I don't have your workflow issue, since I'm performing a quantum leap upgrade from an ancient (two-year-old) Kodak DC265.

Thanks again!

• Dave

Now, on to why I wouldn't purchase an S2. The S1 has a very
annoying "feature" surrounding the tripod mount. It is possible,
according to Fuji, to "overtighten" a tripod screw thus breaking a
circuit board which sits right above the tripod mount. A number of
S1 users that I have spoken with have had this happen which results
in all of the digital bits no longer working. In my case I had the
same symptoms, even though I hadn't even attached a tripod yet, but

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

 

[LCD]

This must be why some sources are saying the S2 has a stronger case. I wondered why they would say that and now I know.... Yes, something to be specific about with Fuji. I'll email them.

Resolution wise it is so far the best. But it is the entire package which needs to be right. They all have moire but that 'hair moire' which Phil Askey mentions in the S1 review is still there.

LCD

 

[Ger Bee]

Now a new player enters the fray

with clearly superior clarity, higher resolution and additional
features (ie. FireWire, flash sync, etc.), not to mention the
ability to use all the Nikkor lenses I've been pining after.

Give the clearly higher image – fine – fantastic even. Firewire good.

Flash is less a little and the camera is slower. Battery consumption is unknown but if anything like its brother, would not be expected to be great.

The D100 has the power grip (optional extra) and already has fair battery performance so I'm buying into this. Field endurance is an issue I’m plagued by – the lack of it that is, with my D1x currently – my CP990 and the E10 could share batteries and battery packs – great – I’d really love this option on ALL digital cameras.

One needs to make a compromise here – a snappy D100 with good image and great performance and long battery life potential or go for the extra quality of the S2.

I must say the extra quality is tempting, I’ve made it easy for myself and am sticking to my earlier decision – but I just may end up buying the S2 at a later date (as well).

Being a relatively high-end consumer (as opposed to a pro), I want
to buy "the" camera that I can use and be impressed with for at
least a while.

"The" camera is arguably the D60 - closely followed by the D100 but I think the Fuji will still appeal to those that bought the Fuji S1 previously and the discerning image conscious photographer.

 

[James Kei]

12MP pixel.
Fuji Color. (check out my we site & compare S1 pro to D1x or D1)
price is lower than D100.

'moire' every current CCD has it, it just matter of software fixing it. You can fix them easily with a lot photoshop plugin.

'moire' is a pattern that generate by current CCD bug.

Unless you wait for Foven x3 CMOS chip, who knows how long going to wait... and also 1st generation with Sigma body, no one test it, no sample image. only has 3.34MP compare with 12MP.

This must be why some sources are saying the S2 has a stronger
case. I wondered why they would say that and now I know.... Yes,
something to be specific about with Fuji. I'll email them.

Resolution wise it is so far the best. But it is the entire package
which needs to be right. They all have moire but that 'hair moire'
which Phil Askey mentions in the S1 review is still there.

LCD

--
James Kei
http://www.pbase.com/jkei
http://community.webshots.com/user/cwkei

 

[Dave Dugal]

Being a relatively high-end consumer (as opposed to a pro), I want
to buy "the" camera that I can use and be impressed with for at
least a while.

"The" camera is arguably the D60 - closely followed by the D100 but
I think the Fuji will still appeal to those that bought the Fuji S1
previously and the discerning image conscious photographer.

Thanks for the reply, Ger Bee. I understood all your previous points, but can you elaborate on why you'd still consider the Canon to be "the" camera? Are you basing this on durability, overall camera features, or the film-like quality of the D60?

• Dave

 

[VJ]

Well, I'm in exactly the same situation as Dave, so thanks for the input !

Now, on to why I wouldn't purchase an S2. The S1 has a very
annoying "feature" surrounding the tripod mount. It is possible,
according to Fuji, to "overtighten" a tripod screw thus breaking a
circuit board which sits right above the tripod mount.

Fuji did acknowledge this as being the source of the problem ? Has the problem been given a commonly accepted name (could be interesting for searches) ?

If Fuji hasn't either fixed this on the S2 or won't
stand behind it as warranty, I wouldn't buy the S2.

Ok, that is interesting to look out for. But isn't the S2 based on another Nikon-body (I thought the S2 is based on the N80, and that the S1 was based on the N60) ? Nevertheless, I think I'll send a mail to their technical support, in order to get an answer on this.

As to color, ease-of-use, etc., if it is as good as the S1 it will
be a great camera. Don't be fooled by the "12mp interpolated"
image size. My tests on the S1 showed me that it was better to
interpolate-up outside the camera. Your compute, and software, are
much more powerful than the processor in the camera.

Strange... I'd think the camera would do the same, only slower... But perhaps this is no longer an issue, due to more processing power in the camera ?

The other reason, for me, that the D100 is more attratctive is that
I have a D1H, and I suspect that the workflow of the D100 will be
closer to the D1H than will the S2. I also like the ability on the
D100 to add the grip and then get the electronic release. Others
will point out the faster flash sync, for me this is not a big deal.

The workflow and the optional portrait-grip are indeed understandable considerations...

What sync-speed does the S2 have ? (can't find it on the spec on the Fuji website)

Jörg

 

[Bill Dewey]

I'll snip and insert comments below:

Now, on to why I wouldn't purchase an S2. The S1 has a very
annoying "feature" surrounding the tripod mount. It is possible,
according to Fuji, to "overtighten" a tripod screw thus breaking a
circuit board which sits right above the tripod mount.

Fuji did acknowledge this as being the source of the problem ? Has
the problem been given a commonly accepted name (could be
interesting for searches) ?

Yes, Fuji specifically states this as "the problem", and it is not a warranty fix.

If Fuji hasn't either fixed this on the S2 or won't
stand behind it as warranty, I wouldn't buy the S2.

Ok, that is interesting to look out for. But isn't the S2 based on
another Nikon-body (I thought the S2 is based on the N80, and that
the S1 was based on the N60) ? Nevertheless, I think I'll send a
mail to their technical support, in order to get an answer on this.

You are correct, the old body was N60 based, this is N80 based. I spoke with Fuji Tech myself for a friend who had this problem, as I had success in the past with getting Fuji to make a firmware change. They wouldn't budge, simply said that this is "user abuse". Search the Fuji forum for Tripod mount or socket and you will find several of these. With the Nikon D series cameras, the tripod mount is solid metal and is beneath the battery. In the S1 case, the battery compartment does not extend as far as the tripod mount, Fuji puts the digital "guts" right above the mount. As this has been an issue, I would hope they have this fixed. Note as well that the body is extended below the standard Nikon body to accept the digital bits, so Fuji has to put in a tripod socket themselves. Perhaps they put a better socket in for the later runs of the S1's, but the one that I saw a few weeks ago was purchased this past February. In my opinion, this is a design flaw in the camera that Fuji should have stood behind. It would be interesting to ask Nikon tech if this is a problem on the N60 as well. Here is a thread from the Fuji forum:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=775772

As to color, ease-of-use, etc., if it is as good as the S1 it will
be a great camera. Don't be fooled by the "12mp interpolated"
image size. My tests on the S1 showed me that it was better to
interpolate-up outside the camera. Your compute, and software, are
much more powerful than the processor in the camera.

Strange... I'd think the camera would do the same, only slower...
But perhaps this is no longer an issue, due to more processing
power in the camera ?

Has to take longer, writing twice the data to the card, plus the cost of the interpolation itself. Just take a 3mp image and interpolate to 6mp in Photoshop, it isn't instant and your PC is a much more powerful processor, with a lot more memory available. Shoot in raw at 6mp, you will have all the info the camera can deliver. Remember that the 12mp is interpolated in the camera from the actual 6mp sensor. Testing with the S1, and very subjectively, the 6mp interpolated seemed like about the equivalent of 4.5mp "real". Still pretty darned good, but no better than I could do in post-processing.

What sync-speed does the S2 have ? (can't find it on the spec on
the Fuji website)

I believe that the S2 is 1/125th where the D100 is 1/180th. This doesn't make a ton of sense to me as they are "based" on the same body.

Jörg

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

 

[Ger Bee]

Thanks for the reply, Ger Bee. I understood all your previous
points, but can you elaborate on why you'd still consider the Canon
to be "the" camera? Are you basing this on durability, overall
camera features, or the film-like quality of the D60?

Nothing more scientific than the floods of satisfied customers over in the Canon forum. They don’t seem to have any serious problems and Canon have given firmware updates where appropriate. It has the advantage of the highest sales and the highest movement from other brands, including the Nikon and especially Olympus but all brands have lost customers to the D60.

The only fly in the ointment seems to be a focussing issue that has some D60 owners closely looking to the D100 to see if it solves that issue for them – I think it does – but obviously needs field trials.

Mind you the D100 is poised to be the biggest, hottest property for some time, it certainly will attain the “THE” status and may even become a cult camera – but it must arrive now and in huge numbers – we’ll see.

Footnote: Nikon seem to be organising an all out blitz on all fronts – so a word of caution – if the D100 takes off it is likely to outsell its production run – so a new model or chassis may follow very quickly, it has happened in the past and this D100 has all the hallmarks of being a runaway success.

 

[Thom Hogan]

'moire' every current CCD has it, it just matter of software fixing
it. You can fix them easily with a lot photoshop plugin.

'moire' is a pattern that generate by current CCD bug.

It's not really a "bug." Moire is an analog-to-digital sampling artifact. Image shooting straight down on a field of rows and columns of ping-pong balls that alternate in color (half black balls, half white balls). If each ball corresponds EXACTLY with a photosite on the CCD--and remember, this is going to change with focal length--you should end up with perfectly alternating black and white pixels (assumes that the demosaicing routine in the camera or software correctly resolves luminance before color). If the photosites aren't perfectly aligned with the balls, some photosites will have part of a black ball, part of a white ball.

But remember that photosites in a Bayer-patterned camera only measure one color. Thus, those misaligned ping-pong balls tend to have non-white and non-black values, and the demosaicing routine generally then shifts the color of the underlying pixel in the direction of the photosite that most contributes to the pixel. If the "frequency" of the pattern being sampled is close to, but not exactly the "frequency" of the sampling, you'll see the "beat frequency" as color fringing. (Those of you who are musicians will know what I mean by beat frequency. When two players are ever so slightly out of tune with each other, there's a jarring--to my symphony-trained ears, at least--repeating pattern of dissonance, who's duration and timing tells you something about just how out of tune the two musicians are. What we're hearing is the amplitude and duration of the mismatch between the soundwaves. And what we see as moire is the mismatch of the frequencies of the data between actual and sample.)

Colored moire is one of the things the Foveon chip claims to solve--it will still have sampling errors on those misaligned ping pong balls, but that shouldn't result in a colored fringe, as each photosite records all three basic colors. But as resolution on Bayer-patterned chips goes up, moire should eventually go down--Foveon really only has a 4x advantage over Bayer patterns regarding moire. Given that chip resolution has been consistently doubling every 18-20 months, that doesn't give them much of a window of opportunity--they're already behind on the resolution curve.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

 

[Geir Atle Ward]

price is lower than D100.

'moire' every current CCD has it, it just matter of software fixing
it. You can fix them easily with a lot photoshop plugin.

'moire' is a pattern that generate by current CCD bug.

Unless you wait for Foven x3 CMOS chip, who knows how long going to
wait... and also 1st generation with Sigma body, no one test it, no
sample image. only has 3.34MP compare with 12MP.

James, James, James....You have swollowed the Fuji marketing pill.

S2 is NOT a 12Mpix camera. It is a 6Mpix. Twist it in any direction - it is still a 6Mpix camera. SuperCCD is better than the ordinary CCD, but is it not a 12Mpix.

There are samples from the Foveon sensor available, it is just not from the Sigma camera.

(And if you claim the S2 ccd is 12Mpix - then you can also say the X3 a 10.5Mpix).

BTW the official price for the S2 is higher than D100 in Japan, JPY310000 against JPY300000.
Geir Atle

 

[Dave Dugal]

Mind you the D100 is poised to be the biggest, hottest property for
some time, it certainly will attain the ?THE? status and may even
become a cult camera ? but it must arrive now and in huge numbers ?
we?ll see.

Footnote: Nikon seem to be organising an all out blitz on all
fronts ? so a word of caution ? if the D100 takes off it is likely
to outsell its production run ? so a new model or chassis may
follow very quickly, it has happened in the past and this D100 has
all the hallmarks of being a runaway success.

Interesting point. With the Fuji S2 Pro sitting in the wings ready to take all the excess business it can get from waitlisted prospective D100 buyers, I would expect Nikon should be very, very careful about purposely under-supplying this camera. It WILL create a feeding frenzy, but for the "instantaneous gratification" crowd (that'd be me), I could easily see people accepting the S2 as a (possibly) readily available, (possibly) better camera.

This is gonna be an interesting summer for the D-SLR fans!

• Dave

 

[Amac]

Hi,

for mine, I'd stick with the Nikon- where Nikon will warrantee the entire package. Fuji backed away from warrantee issues with the S1, as the tripod mount issue being described as "user abuse" mentioned above illustrates. This is absolutely not good enough at this price range and the sort of stuff you can expect when you buy a hybrid.

Just my thoughts.
--
Regards

Andrew McGregor

http://www.geocities.com/andrewmcgregorphotography

 

[Ron Frank]

Hi Dave,

I think in digital (and in film but less so) there seems to be a serious lack of overall evaluation of a given set of products. I'm not saying that there are not great reviews on products available, but that people seem to get so wound up in pixels, that the overall product is somewhat ignored.

So here are a few things to consider:

1. Fuji resale value. This may not matter to you. But IMO the Nikon will have a better resale value when you want to upgrade, and a bigger resale market.

2. Build/Design quality. This has yet too be seen to some degree on both the D100 and the Fuji. But the S1 had issues. That brings me to the next point.

3. Product backing/warranty/support. Nikon has a bunch of authorized service centers in the states and around the world. Their warranty work is generally good, and they stand behind products. This may be the single most important factor given that both products are relatively new, and that Fuji S1 had some issues that they refused to cover under warranty.

Overall features, quality, and what R U going to use the camera for should drive the decision. Firewire and a PC sync terminal IMO don't seem like enough value add to go with the Fuji especially as it will likely be several hundred more than the D100. As for resolution, I doubt most of this forum benifit much from resolution beyond 4mpix. Canon bet on this, and the 1D is very popular among pros for that exact reason.

The D100 WILL fire a non-TTL flash via the hot shoe. To think it will not is a bit absurd from my perspective as EVERY Nikon SLR in history does, and the D100 specs say it will.

Good luck with the decision.

Ron

This isn't meant to incite a ruckus, but I'm actually genuinely
confused.

I had my heart and budget set on a nice, new Nikon D100 since I
even heard the beast existed. Now a new player enters the fray
with clearly superior clarity, higher resolution and additional
features (ie. FireWire, flash sync, etc.), not to mention the
ability to use all the Nikkor lenses I've been pining after.

So the question becomes, why WOULDN'T I forego the Nikon D100 and
simply pick up a Fuji S2 Pro, which is due to arrive around about
the same time as the D100? Am I missing something obvious?

Being a relatively high-end consumer (as opposed to a pro), I want
to buy "the" camera that I can use and be impressed with for at
least a while.

Thanks in advance for your POVs!

• Dave (Confused in NH)

 

[Loren Sanders Sr]

Ger Bee. please comment a bit more on the focussing issue of the D60.

The only fly in the ointment seems to be a focussing issue that has
some D60 owners closely looking to the D100 to see if it solves
that issue for them – I think it does – but obviously needs field
trials.

--
L Sanders Sr

 

[Ger Bee]

.. on the Canon forum. I'd not have an opinion but a visit to the Canon forum will find detailed discussion on this.

Ger Bee. please comment a bit more on the focussing issue of the D60.

 

[simon]

Dave,

I'm pleased you brought this predicament up - I'm in it too.

Over the last few days, the S2 seems to have been getting a bit more coverage - and it's imaging quality.

After much humming and harring, I've decided to stick with Nikon. It's a name I know, I believe the build will be better quality (based on handling an S1 and a D100) and I prefer the optional add-ons to the D100 over the S2.

• Simon, Oz

This isn't meant to incite a ruckus, but I'm actually genuinely
confused.

I had my heart and budget set on a nice, new Nikon D100 since I
even heard the beast existed. Now a new player enters the fray
with clearly superior clarity, higher resolution and additional
features (ie. FireWire, flash sync, etc.), not to mention the
ability to use all the Nikkor lenses I've been pining after.

So the question becomes, why WOULDN'T I forego the Nikon D100 and
simply pick up a Fuji S2 Pro, which is due to arrive around about
the same time as the D100? Am I missing something obvious?

Being a relatively high-end consumer (as opposed to a pro), I want
to buy "the" camera that I can use and be impressed with for at
least a while.

Thanks in advance for your POVs!

• Dave (Confused in NH)

 

[Magne Nilsen]

I did a days testing comparing the N80 ( AF.module as the D100/S2) to the D60 some weeks ago. Results were posted here:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=2616813

Magne

 

[Leon Obers]

So the question becomes, why WOULDN'T I forego the Nikon D100 and
simply pick up a Fuji S2 Pro, which is due to arrive around about
the same time as the D100? Am I missing something obvious?

Last year I had purchased the Fuji S1. In spite it had good specs, I had problems with a green cast in the left corner and autofocus that didn't focus at the right place.

Got 4 exchanges (so four camera's in total). None of the camera's was 100% The last camera was good for color but autofocus problems still couldn't be corrected, only because Fuji doesn't have the right trained service engineers that can repair or adjust camera's in a proper way.

Fuji is a selling company, but don't have a good organised service engineering department. So I give back the fourth camera and got a Nikon D1X.

I shall never buy a Fuji camera anymore, how wonderfull the specs look like. Service and reliability is much more important for a pro than better specs.

--
Leon Obers