Will Canon make an R1-like Pro2?

[dswcamera]

No such thing. You can't have a reflex camera without a reflex
mirror. You can't have an SLR with 2 lenses either:

Digital Single Lens Reflex = DSLR

Symantecs and Religion.

Look, I get your point on the strict decomposition of the term DSLR. I think we all know what the words mean.

But where is the second lens? The loss of the mirror doesn't require a second lens, especially if the EVF is throught the lens.

The mirror system is mechanical and more complicated and costs more.
There can be an analog to the "reflex mirror" in any digital camera design.

Just like modern aircraft don't use cables and hydraulics, but fly-by-wire.

Just like fuel injection systems were mechanical, with shuttles, cams and levers and now are computer controlled.

So maybe we will have another term instead of DSLR if Canon does this cyborg of a camera.

Any ideas for a name, an iDSL

 

[Vik117408]

Pro1 successor will probably have small sensor, but not from Fuji. I think Canon can put there anything, maybe CMOS from 2/3" to APS-C. In latter case, interchangable lens mount is the most probable solution (for those who likes fast primes and macrotubes/flexibility).

 

[Vik117408]

I'm extremely disapplinted with the usability
of every EVF and LCD I've ever seen used as a viewfinder.

At least I hope the subject goes in the right direction ;-)

 

[rustedborg]

The single biggest reason that we will see a R1-type camera from Canon and Nikon is the rational behind this chart:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/page20.asp

At the end of the day average shutterbugs want the kind of equipment that equates to "professional image quality" but they don't want to pay high prices and they don't want to carry a ton of equipment they don't "need."

These are the kind of people who are drawn to the R1 with the all-in-one lens and its live image preview on the LCD. There is a market here ... and Canon knows it. As cell phone cameras get better and better the ultra compact point-and-shoot market is going to dry up and NONE of the major camera makers are crazy enough to think they can survive on just DSLR body and lens sales alone.

 

[Lee Jay]

No such thing. You can't have a reflex camera without a reflex
mirror. You can't have an SLR with 2 lenses either:

Digital Single Lens Reflex = DSLR

Symantecs and Religion.

Look, I get your point on the strict decomposition of the term
DSLR. I think we all know what the words mean.

But where is the second lens?

The viewfinder is the second lens on a non-SLR.

The loss of the mirror doesn't
require a second lens, especially if the EVF is throught the lens.

Sort of true but the EVF has taken the place of the optical non-TTL viewfinder so it's not considered a single-lens system even though it really is.

The mirror system is mechanical and more complicated and costs more.
There can be an analog to the "reflex mirror" in any digital camera
design.

True but I still say we're a long way away technologically from having the capability of duplicating the optical system with an electronic system.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[Lee Jay]

The single biggest reason that we will see a R1-type camera from
Canon and Nikon is the rational behind this chart:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/page20.asp

At the end of the day average shutterbugs want the kind of
equipment that equates to "professional image quality" but they
don't want to pay high prices and they don't want to carry a ton of
equipment they don't "need."

Then get a Rebel XT + 17-85IS and call it a day. It's only slightly more expensive than the R1 and way better.

These are the kind of people who are drawn to the R1 with the
all-in-one lens and its live image preview on the LCD. There is a
market here ... and Canon knows it. As cell phone cameras get
better and better the ultra compact point-and-shoot market is going
to dry up and NONE of the major camera makers are crazy enough to
think they can survive on just DSLR body and lens sales alone.

Even though they did for a long time? Cell phone cameras stink and aren't getting any better. In fact, they're getting worse. The lens on my cell phone is 1mm in diameter. Do you think the cell-phone companies are going to put a G6 or S2 type lens on their cell phones when people are demanding phones like the RAZR?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[gkl]

I don't beleive a Pro2 with an APS-sized sensor is realistic at the present time. Here's why.

Canon's digicam lines are defined by their lens and sensor size (1/1.8, 2/3, etc.). The G series used a 3X or 4X fast zoom with 1/1.8 sensor. The Pro offers a bigger zoom with a bigger CCD. The image circle of the Pro1 lens is designed for the 2/3 sensor of the Pro1 (8.8 by 6.6 mm). APS is 21.5 by 14.4 mm. If you stuck a Pro1 lens on an APS sensor the image would be a circle about 10-12 cm in diameter in the middle of the frame and you would not be happy with the image quality near the rim.

A lens is a major R+D investment. The Pro1 replacement, if there is one, will likely use the current Pro1 lens, or a similar design.

The R1 is such a beast because Sony had to weld a APS-size zoom lens to the case.It's no accident that its similar in size to your typical EF-S zoom lens. The larger the sensor, the larger the image circle, and the larger and heavier the glass has to be to produce decent image quality over that circle.

It wouldn't take that much effort for Canon to produce a EVF camera with the Rebel-XT sensor. They could easily weld their 18-85 zoom to the Rebel case and implant an EVF. But they wouldn't call it a Pro2. And why would they bother? The cost would be similar to the Rebel, and don't they really want people to buy into their SLR line? That's what creates a "loyal" customer base.

Why not produce a CMOS sensor in 2/3 size? Current CMOS pixel sites are much larger than those used in CCDs. That's one reason the CMOS S/N ratio is so good. So a 2/3 CMOS sensor using Rebel pixel sites would be roughly 1.5 mp. So there is a long way to go. It may happen someday, but probably not soon enough for the PMA though.

If there is a Pro2 followon, it'll likely be a raft of minor improvements. Things like a CCD with lower noise at higher ISO, better EVF, bigger LCD, faster Digic II, USB 2, maybe some lens improvement, lower price point. Just my $.02. gkl

I, for one, am really hoping that Canon comes out with a Pro2 with
an APS-sized sensor. I would love a smaller, fixed lens camera
with the advantages and image quality that a large APS sensor
brings. (Too bad the R1 is such a beast.)

However...Canon has a wildly successfully DSLR line. A Pro2 or
similar camera with an APS sensor would likely impact their DSLR
sales. Does anyone have any idea if Canon will attempt to match or
exceed Sony's R1 class camera, or not risk its DSLR sales and shy
away? I know we'll likely here more as we get close to PMA, but
any thought or info out there on this subject?

--
Aron Digumarthi
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/gern

 

[ralph m]

with absolute uncertainty that it is a very definite maybe..

--
ralph m
http://www.pbase.com/rmcmillan
fcas(77)

 

[mamallama]

IMPOSSIBLE. The Rebel-XT sensor cannot provide a live continuous output. So where's the signal to feed the EVF coming from? That's why you cannot use the LCD to compose on the current dSLRs.

--mamallama

gkl wrote:
[snip]

It wouldn't take that much effort for Canon to produce a EVF camera
with the Rebel-XT sensor. They could easily weld their 18-85 zoom
to the Rebel case and implant an EVF. But they wouldn't call it a
Pro2. And why would they bother? The cost would be similar to the
Rebel, and don't they really want people to buy into their SLR
line? That's what creates a "loyal" customer base.

[snip]

 

[dswcamera]

IMPOSSIBLE. The Rebel-XT sensor cannot provide a live continuous
output. So where's the signal to feed the EVF coming from? That's
why you cannot use the LCD to compose on the current dSLRs.

Is that true of all CMOS sensors? Is it a temperature rise thing or completely different dynamics from a CCD?

 

[dswcamera]

Then get a Rebel XT + 17-85IS and call it a day. It's only
slightly more expensive than the R1 and way better.

Amen. I looked over the review of the R1 and I wasnt that impressed. It looked like Sony was going for a patchwork design just to get something out there. I think the offerings from Canon, Nikon and even Panasonic look better designed and integrated than Sony's. The 10mp is just a bump over 8 and the other image gathering is not up to the Rebel at the same price point.

Juist looked in the paper and you can get a Rebel XT with two lenses for $999 w/rebate.

I like my Pro1, but it is just a great point-and-shoot. When I get the scratch, will be looking for a Rebel XT to complete my camera needs

 

[fiebl]

dswcamera,

one major break-through of the Sony R1 is a CMOS sensor that CAN output a continous signal to feed to a LCD or allow movie mode.

Canon has until now not been able or willing to do this.

Most likely Canon will use the Sony APS sensor in the spring 2006 to offer a PRO2 that will mimick the PRO1 in relation to the Sony F828.

Reagards, Guenter

IMPOSSIBLE. The Rebel-XT sensor cannot provide a live continuous
output. So where's the signal to feed the EVF coming from? That's
why you cannot use the LCD to compose on the current dSLRs.

Is that true of all CMOS sensors? Is it a temperature rise thing
or completely different dynamics from a CCD?

 

[dswcamera]

True but I still say we're a long way away technologically from
having the capability of duplicating the optical system with an
electronic system.

I wasn't thinking about replacing the lens optics, just the need for the mirror.

Is it true that a CMOS sensor can't be used for live view?

I jus think there is an opportunity for a better prosumer that actually is more DSLR like (thats a better def!) with replaceable lenses. I think it sets the bar higher for that class of camera without cannibalizing the more profitable lens market.

I am not for a Pro1 on steroids for all of the obvious reasons. Big sensor = big glass, heavy, price point, market issues, etc.

In the mean whille, an XT is the best option. If you have a point and shoot for ease of use, and have the money, a DSLR like the XT is an easy choice.

Cheers

 

[Lee Jay]

True but I still say we're a long way away technologically from
having the capability of duplicating the optical system with an
electronic system.

I wasn't thinking about replacing the lens optics, just the need
for the mirror.

I was talking about replacing an optical viewfinder with an electronic one.

Is it true that a CMOS sensor can't be used for live view?

No.

I jus think there is an opportunity for a better prosumer that
actually is more DSLR like (thats a better def!) with replaceable
lenses. I think it sets the bar higher for that class of camera
without cannibalizing the more profitable lens market.

In what way would such a camera be better than an SLR?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[dswcamera]

Just a better prosumer without canniblaizing the DSLR market.

The big IF is whether a mirrorless design would be less expensive to make in volume

Its also all about market segment. Sometimes you sacrifice profitability to establish and get market share. Hoping later to get the payback in ecomomy of scale or the NEXT product. If you can make the consumer think you have a better solution at a price, you can win them over. At least that's the theory.

If you look at the spectrum of point and shoot cameras and the prosumer, they are all over the map. Very few of them offer the same feature set. They often sacrifice a feature for one that their marketing guys thought would differentiate them.

Siome go for big zooom, others for mega-pixels, etc.

As I have mentioned in other threads, I was in the hard drive business for over 20 years. There are a lot of parallels, from the technology mix to the price point and erorsion.

Those marketing guys would push a feature at the expense something more important alll because they thought they knew where the market was heading. They would push a de-featured product to a price point when it was a bad compromise.

They were wrong more than 50% of the time.

 

[mamallama]

While very true we're a long way from duplicating the optical system with an electronis system, the fortunate thing is that we don't need to DUPLICATE it to be extremely useful for a digital camera. We need only to get the refresh rate and resolution of the electronic display view to be imperceptible from the actual view to the human senses. Also to gain up in low light situations. Here the EVF has the potential to be better than what is provided in current OVF.

A useful EVF technology to compete adequately with (not duplicate) the dSLR EVF is not that far away in my view.

--mamallama

ljfinger wrote:
[snip]

True but I still say we're a long way away technologically from
having the capability of duplicating the optical system with an
electronic system.

 

[ekamera]

Exactly,
like it or not, Sony create new market.

canon may not want to go this road, because they have tons of lens for sale, Sony and others Doesn't.

Sure you can say R1 is overpriced compare to Rebel XT, but that is now, I am sure next year, company like Samsung, Casio, even Panasonic will follow Sony introducing this same APS class prosumers.

and , believe it or not, there are a lot of SLR / DSLR users that only have 1, and 2 lens, kit lens. and one day someone will tell them they need to buy a better, a longer lens, and when they see that 'L' price well ...

So thats it, we are seeing next evolution on prosumer class digicam with APS size sensor, and I don't think Canon wanna mis this.

btw> and I want that APS PRO2 come with 24-200 (35mm equiv) IS Lens + Unlimited MPEG4 Movie recording!

The single biggest reason that we will see a R1-type camera from
Canon and Nikon is the rational behind this chart:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/page20.asp

At the end of the day average shutterbugs want the kind of
equipment that equates to "professional image quality" but they
don't want to pay high prices and they don't want to carry a ton of
equipment they don't "need."

These are the kind of people who are drawn to the R1 with the
all-in-one lens and its live image preview on the LCD. There is a
market here ... and Canon knows it. As cell phone cameras get
better and better the ultra compact point-and-shoot market is going
to dry up and NONE of the major camera makers are crazy enough to
think they can survive on just DSLR body and lens sales alone.

 

[orpheo]

Size matters - at least when it comes to so-called P&S-cameras ;o)

Everything else has been said before in this thread. I personally doubt very much, that this kind of Pro2 would be a big success, so why should Canon build it?

Greetings, orpheo

 

[gkl]

dswcamera,
one major break-through of the Sony R1 is a CMOS sensor that CAN
output a continous signal to feed to a LCD or allow movie mode.

Canon has until now not been able or willing to do this.
Most likely Canon will use the Sony APS sensor in the spring 2006
to offer a PRO2 that will mimick the PRO1 in relation to the Sony
F828.

Reagards, Guenter

Regardless of whether Canon borrows the Sony APS sensor, they can't use the current Pro1 lens with any APS sensor. It's image circle will not cover it. They could borrow the lens design from one of their zooms (18-85?), but it would be similar in size and weight to the SLR lens. Even if it were offered at a price lower than the Rebel XT, what would be the point? How many people would buy an EVF camera that's about the same size/weight as a Rebel XT when they could get a Rebel XT with access to the entire Canon lens line for a bit more? Sorry, I just don't see it happening.

If there is a Pro2, I'd expect them to use something similar to the 2/3 sensor and lens of the Pro1, with a speed upgrade to Digic II or better. gkl

IMPOSSIBLE. The Rebel-XT sensor cannot provide a live continuous
output. So where's the signal to feed the EVF coming from? That's
why you cannot use the LCD to compose on the current dSLRs.

Is that true of all CMOS sensors? Is it a temperature rise thing
or completely different dynamics from a CCD?

 

[Jim]

Sorry yeah you are right.. naturally.

A rebel will never be a R1.

But more to the point, my point was that a Pro1 with a APS sized
sensor would not be a Pro1 anymore. as both the lens and the body
would grow significantly. It would be a much larger camera closer
to the R1.

Size is a big part of the charm of the Pro1 for me.

Secondly.. given time, we WILL see small sensors with much better
noice to signal ratio than what is common right now. looking at
the development since I started with professional digital in 1997,
this is how it will be.. and yes naturally larger sensors will
continue to be even better. (smile)

But as the Pro1 pleases me right ow... Im personally hoping for a
bettr Pro2 in the same size / weight range.

If all the "Pro2" had was better high ISO performance (good ISO 800 and 1600 capabilities), that alone would persuade me to purchase one. The rest of the existing Pro1's feature/size set I like.

Jim