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Another S3 Review - Imaging Resource

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I agree with you Derrell.

As someone who has studied IR's D2x samples closely, I was quite surprised that he would post the +1.3EV D2x sample as the "optimal exposure" with its totally blown highlights....it's quite awful really. What he seems to have wanted was to bring up the midtones by general overexposure. Taking the 0.0 EV sample & applying a simple curve adjustment produces quite a nice image....much nicer than the 1D2 by comparison. (I'll have to compare that to the S3 image when I get home.)

I wonder how one of the custom curves you have been using would handle this harsh lighting...would it be better do you think?

-evan

--
Fuji S2 etc.

http://www.pbase.com/eheffa
 
the tester didn't know what he was doing, you say
where have I heard that before?
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
Evan Effa said:
I agree with you Derrell.

As someone who has studied IR's D2x samples closely, I was quite
surprised that he would post the +1.3EV D2x sample as the "optimal
exposure" with its totally blown highlights....it's quite awful
really. What he seems to have wanted was to bring up the midtones
by general overexposure. Taking the 0.0 EV sample & applying a
simple curve adjustment produces quite a nice image....much nicer
than the 1D2 by comparison. (I'll have to compare that to the S3
image when I get home.)
Click to expand...
Hi Evan,

BINGO!!!!! You've got the right idea,entirely. His staement that +1.0 is an "average amount of compensation" is a simply ludicrous statement when applied to a camera that has 3-D COlor Matrix Metering, and not a 30,000 pghoto image bank, but a 300,000 image bank. He's treating the D2x like it's yet another dumb,mstuopid,colorblind camera,instead of a camera that measures not just REFLECTANCE of light, but also compares that with RGB or COLOR-sensing measurements. A white bliuse is recognixed as "white" by the RGB measurments,which is reserved for the HIGH-end Nikons, like the F5 and latere the D1- and D2-series and the F6. THis is where treating a flagship camera as if it were reading everything "dumb", as in 18 percent gray, defeats the purpose.

And YES, the theory is that one would shoot at the metered exposure,and things would look pretty darned close to "optimal", with no chance of blown highlights. When you look at his sample images where the woman's blouse comprises 20 percent of the scene, the D2x's COLOR-aware metering SEES that huge expanmse of monotone not as a gray wall, but as a white blouse, at the focus distance, comprising a substantial part of a vertical composition. I like you idea, that he is trying to bring up the midtones via genralized overr-exposure.But he is,by his own admission, also I think trying to "peg" his whites by adding about 2/3 of a stop of exposure. THat would make sense if he were shooting color negative film, or if he were using a camera without distance metering, color metering,and reflectance metering all combined into a superb Matrix meter....

If one thinks that Adding +1.3 stop is the way to "peg" highlight values with a D2x, one has an entirely wrong grasp of the camera's metering abilities on its own. Once again, the computer and the 300,000 photos in the memory make the D2x able to NAIL flat-lighted scenarios eceedingly,exceedingly well. In high-ratio lighting, using a Matrix meter reading and a +1.3 or a +1.0 or even a +.7 exposure compensation as a way to "peg" ones' whites is asking for trouble.

Unlike the S2, where spot metering and flash photography leads to good results, the D2x has the ability to measure scene dynamics,real-world scenes, and to compute generally very,very good exposures. Willy-nilly applying ridiculous overexposure amounts isn't a sound working method because it simly ignores the D2x's ability to factor in distance,color,and reflectance, plus white balance, to arrive at a good exposure that matches the sensor's DR with the metering system.
Evan Effa said:
I wonder how one of the custom curves you have been using would
handle this harsh lighting...would it be better do you think?
Click to expand...
My feeling is that the problem is not so much the tone curve as it is trying to show how badly a person can screw up exposure metering by dialling in wayyyyyyy more overexposure than is needed,and then watching the highoights blow. Especially when the 0.0 shot is almost perfect,and the +.3 shot is also quite beautiful, but +.7 looks terrible, +1.0 looks worse, and +1.3 looks like kvap.....I mean, yeesh....the camera is measuring the COLORs, the distance, the subject's size, the focusing distance, and the lighting ratio, and is running through 300,000 actual exposures and scenes, looking for the right way to expose. Left on its own, it looks good at 0.0,and the more + you add the more you screw the scene up. Again, when he says that +1.0 is a "average amount of compensation" you must stop and say, "Wait,wait,wait a minute--with WHICH camera is blasting it with another +1.0 'average'?"

Just look at the entire set of samples he has....the default exposure is almost always very close, and +.3 is acceptable,but lighter toned overall,with +.7 and +1.0 being way more "help" than a "smart camera" needs.

--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel
Fu-ji EssWun(on extended loan),EssTu,Nik-On
DeeSvnD,DWun,DTuEx. And a E-Ohs TwunT-D
 
Yes, that is what I am sayingt Artichoke. LOOK at the entire sample gfallery he has for the D2x. THe more "help" he gave the camera,. the WORSE his overall exposures looked.

And Artichoke, do youe eyes not function any more? Why not come back here in your next post with some facts and some numbers and some examples of where Dave's willy-nilly applying of +.7 and +1.0 and +1.3 exposure compensation offsets actually improved" the D2x's rendiering of the test scenes.

Trying to out-think the world's most sophisticated light metering by treating a flagship cameras as if it were a color-blind, 18% grey rendering,nightmare is pretty outdated.

As you're fond of saying, "GARBAGE in, garbage OUT." Adding +1.0 exposure compensation to a D2x light meter reading and calling that "average compensatrion" is a clear case of garbage thinking IN, and garbage output. Simply, as you loooooove to say, "garbage in, garbage out." I bet your reflexes and judgement are faster and better than the microcomputer in every D2x though, right?

--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel
Fu-ji EssWun(on extended loan),EssTu,Nik-On
DeeSvnD,DWun,DTuEx. And a E-Ohs TwunT-D
 
Dillon James said:
These Nikonista's are a pain...
Click to expand...
There is really nothing wrong with the differing opinions, I just wish that people would avoid the seemingly irresistable temptation to lace every reply with unnecessary emotional cargo. No need to accuse people of things, no need to jeer and caper. The art of civil discourse needs a little revival. (on all sides - by the way)

--
Best regards,
Jonathan Kardell
'Most cameras and most lenses are better than most photographers.'
 
Hey, I added a smiley.
Jonathan Kardell said:
Dillon James said:
These Nikonista's are a pain...
Click to expand...
There is really nothing wrong with the differing opinions, I just
wish that people would avoid the seemingly irresistable temptation
to lace every reply with unnecessary emotional cargo. No need to
accuse people of things, no need to jeer and caper. The art of
civil discourse needs a little revival. (on all sides - by the way)

--
Best regards,
Jonathan Kardell
'Most cameras and most lenses are better than most photographers.'
Click to expand...
--

The dynamic range of color negative film! Straight out of camera, no additional processing! Here:

l http://www.pbase.com/dillonjames/image/48536720/original
 
Derrell I think you know that I agree with this premise
a DSLR is a complex instrument and really is a challenge to review

I found many things in this review disturbing as well as in dpreview's review of the S3 as you know

did you notice that the house shot, which I used for my comparisons, was taken at f2.8 for the D2X and f8 for the S3?

this is hardly a fair way to compare the two cameras ...the S3 was given a big advantage here

what is more useful perhaps is the overall impression of the reviewer, providing they are reasonably honest in their assessment

I really trust reliable users opinions and what my own eyes can see more than what these reviewers say anyway

what is apparent is that the resolution difference really is not all that great (the resolution charts were shot in using both the S & R sensors unlike the ones in dpreview, btw in which the R sensors were disabled) and the D2X does seem more prone to moire at least from what I could see and the shots from their EXIF data appear identical
both cameras push the resolution charts to their limits in these tests, btw

regarding the great shadow detail from the D2X: how does this reconcile with its rather poor showing on every measure of DR ...not just this review but that of many, many others

the improved exposure metering of the D2X just can't help improve the output of the first ever Sony CMOS DSLR sensor ...the increased shadow detail is an illusion of the D2X having more in the shadows due to its mediocre DR performance ...shooting the S3 for the highlights really opens up the shadows and as I am certain you will agree, the increased DR of the S3 helps on both ends of dynamic range & not just the highlights
lastly, I find your notion that ACR is superior to HU2 comically presumptuous

you, who have had limited if any experience with the S3, are telling me how to use the camera
I have CS2 and the latest ACR and have tested it against HU2
as with the S2 the Fuji converter wins hands down at all ISO settings

you may find Fuji's software harder to use (I like it) or ACR faster (which it is) but for IQ, Fuji still seems to do the best job with converting the RAW files they engineered
the S3 is more than enough camera for me for now

I have no interest in getting a camera that costs > 2X as much, yet captures inferior image quality to what I presently shot even if it does this at 8 fps and with a huge buffer
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
I think you might have been looking at the poster pic. Dave does a 'real' pic of the house, as well as taking an image of a poster of the house, one that I think was originally made with large format.

In the actual house pics, the S3 does surprisingly well IMO compared to the D2X. Is the D2X sharper? Yes, but the difference is less than what I thought I would see.

One 'big' difference is that it looks like someone upgraded to Anderson's in the S3 pic. What detail!!
Dillon James said:
Artichoke said:
did you notice that the house shot, which I used for my comparisons, was taken at f2.8 for the D2X and f8 for the S3?
Click to expand...
No. The exif says f 8 for the Nikon.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D2X/FULLRES/D2XFAR4288F.HTM

Download and see.

--
The dynamic range of color negative film! Straight out of camera,
no additional processing! Here:

l http://www.pbase.com/dillonjames/image/48536720/original
Click to expand...
--

The dynamic range of color negative film! Straight out of camera, no additional processing! Here:

l http://www.pbase.com/dillonjames/image/48536720/original
 
your statement about the world's most sophisticated exposure metering system may be true (though the folks at Leica claim the same) but having 2 extra stops of dynamic range gives an enormous advantage when shooting in the real world

why is it that so many folks who own D2X cameras mention how technically demanding it is? someone here (who bought his D2X at your insistence) is troubled by whether or not his tripod is up to the demands of his camera!

other happy D2X users refer to it as a beast that has to be tamed, but what great images you get if you are up to its technical demands

folks who use the S3 almost uniformly comment on how easy & forgiving this camera is to use

it does not have 1/3 exposure correction built in but it doesn't need it!

the S3's fourth generation advanced SCCD Fuji sensor, designed and manufactured by them, is superior to Nikon's use of a Sony first ever DSLR CMOS sensor which is the Achilles heel of the D2X

if the sensor don't cut it, all the sophisticated exposure metering in the world isn't going to help

bottom line: the S3 is an easy camera to shoot that produces photographs that at least rival the output of the D2X and often surpass it and it costs
a very handy "niche" camera, I think
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
thanks ...I hoped I was wrong about this
don't have time to check tonite, but I probably will someday

what impressed me was the detail the S3 showed that was completely missing in the D2X version

look at th venetian blinds in the S3 windows to the right of the doorway on the second floor
in the D2X there is not even a suggestion they were venetian blinds!

the S3 pulls more detail because it has significantly wider DR ...this is what I mean by the real resolution advantage of the S3
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
you may be correct
the image you linked from the D2X has very nice venetian blinds

the link I looked at was from the "Comparometer" and was using an F stop of 2.8, so it may have been a poster as you said
very odd
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
Yes, the Comparometer house is the poster. I guess it just for judging color. That's why I suggested comparing the pic labeled 'indoor' in the Comparometer. Compare it to the 20D and teh D70, after adjusting the long sides to 3507 pixels to match the 20D. The S3 beats both of these cams here IMO.
Artichoke said:
you may be correct
the image you linked from the D2X has very nice venetian blinds
the link I looked at was from the "Comparometer" and was using an F
stop of 2.8, so it may have been a poster as you said
very odd
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
Click to expand...
--

The dynamic range of color negative film! Straight out of camera, no additional processing! Here:

l http://www.pbase.com/dillonjames/image/48536720/original
 
Hello Derrel,

Puleeze! Just for once - say something nice about the S3 - really nice! Could you?

Here we all are Fuji-Fanboys #1 to #1,000+, and then you come along to squish the afterglow of a stalwart, honest and feel-good S3 review with a sea of words extolling the virtues of the DtuEx and its supernatural powers of light and color analysis management and measurement???? Methinks these musings would have served the community better in the Nikon D100/D1/D2 forum. No?

It's amazing how any good discussion here on the S3 always devolves into a deluge of praise for the DtuEx!!!! If only you actually used a S3...... you would hopefully be less vehement, back on track.

I've shot everything from 4x5", 6x9, 6x4.5, 35mm S1, S2 and now S3. Believe me the S3 is one of the best imaging machines I have ever owned (and I really do love my 4x5" with its wonderful Schneider lenses - except that it's been in the box for about 3 years now - simply because DSLR - especially the S3 - have taken over whether I like it or not. That's life! Still, I'm hanging on to my 4x5" in the deluded hope that sometime in the near future the S3 sensor will expand to that size so I can produce pristine images of a zillion megabytes - Zmb.

I sincerely hope that one-day you will manage to put this anti-S3ism behind you. If finally you could throw a scrap of apprecation to your nemesis you will have overcome a personal bogeyman (no mean feat) and we can all happily go back to enjoying the S3 afterglowwwww.

Personally, I'm really looking foreward to the next evolvement of the Fuji Super Sensor in whatever incarnation that may be. If its the S4 or S9.75 (for Harry Potter - Magic Photographer) then I'll be there and I hope you'll be there with me too.

Ahhhh! Just one More time:

"Bottom line, Fujifilm appears to have achieved exactly what they set out to do with the S3 Pro, delivering a camera with dynamic range that equals or exceeds that of film, with excellent color and tonal rendition in the bargain. Highly recommended, especially if your work involves a lot of tricky highlight detail. (An easy Dave's Pick)" http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/S3/S3PA13.HTM

S3 - Enjoy the Magic and happy shooting!
-
Herbert Bishko
 
just got your back Arti. all in fun.
--
Kodachrome, they give us those nice bright colours
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world’s a sunny day, oh yeah
I got a nikon camera, I love to take a photograph
 
4x5? Hey, can you mount you S3 on the back? The you can use Live Preview to focus! Wow! An S3 with swings and tilts...
Herbert Bishko said:
Hello Derrel,

Puleeze! Just for once - say something nice about the S3 - really
nice! Could you?

Here we all are Fuji-Fanboys #1 to #1,000+, and then you come along
to squish the afterglow of a stalwart, honest and feel-good S3
review with a sea of words extolling the virtues of the DtuEx and
its supernatural powers of light and color analysis management and
measurement???? Methinks these musings would have served the
community better in the Nikon D100/D1/D2 forum. No?

It's amazing how any good discussion here on the S3 always devolves
into a deluge of praise for the DtuEx!!!! If only you actually used
a S3...... you would hopefully be less vehement, back on track.

I've shot everything from 4x5", 6x9, 6x4.5, 35mm S1, S2 and now S3.
Believe me the S3 is one of the best imaging machines I have ever
owned (and I really do love my 4x5" with its wonderful Schneider
lenses - except that it's been in the box for about 3 years now -
simply because DSLR - especially the S3 - have taken over whether I
like it or not. That's life! Still, I'm hanging on to my 4x5" in
the deluded hope that sometime in the near future the S3 sensor
will expand to that size so I can produce pristine images of a
zillion megabytes - Zmb.

I sincerely hope that one-day you will manage to put this
anti-S3ism behind you. If finally you could throw a scrap of
apprecation to your nemesis you will have overcome a personal
bogeyman (no mean feat) and we can all happily go back to enjoying
the S3 afterglowwwww.

Personally, I'm really looking foreward to the next evolvement of
the Fuji Super Sensor in whatever incarnation that may be. If its
the S4 or S9.75 (for Harry Potter - Magic Photographer) then I'll
be there and I hope you'll be there with me too.

Ahhhh! Just one More time:
"Bottom line, Fujifilm appears to have achieved exactly what they
set out to do with the S3 Pro, delivering a camera with dynamic
range that equals or exceeds that of film, with excellent color and
tonal rendition in the bargain. Highly recommended, especially if
your work involves a lot of tricky highlight detail. (An easy
Dave's Pick)" http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/S3/S3PA13.HTM

S3 - Enjoy the Magic and happy shooting!
-
Herbert Bishko
Click to expand...
--

The dynamic range of color negative film! Straight out of camera, no additional processing! Here:

l http://www.pbase.com/dillonjames/image/48536720/original
 
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