Another S3 Review - Imaging Resource

yes
also the file I downloaded apparently was of a poster according to Dillon
I thought it odd that the comparison shots were made at f2.8

I don't know that I am such a great fan of this way of comparing cameras given what I have learned (and I stated this in my original post here)
I am very pleased with my camera
many others now are seeing its advantages
these matters are indisputable
the S3 delivers > DR
costs
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
Artichoke wrote:> SNIP>
bottom line: the S3 is an easy camera to shoot that produces
photographs that at least rival the output of the D2X and often
surpass it> SNIP
Yeah, but too bad about the three-shot buffer and the cheesy focusing system and small,squinty viewfinder,eh? All that dynamic range isn't much good on when the CAM900 autofocus module cannot manage to pull focus on moving subjects.

S3 images that "rival" the D2x? Hah. Robert Smith's portrait samples which you have let languish show the S3 and D2x portrait samples to be so close in color and overall tonality that nobody can tell for sure which was shot with which.

--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel
Fu-ji EssWun(on extended loan),EssTu,Nik-On
DeeSvnD,DWun,DTuEx. And a E-Ohs TwunT-D
 
bottom line: the S3 is an easy camera to shoot that produces
photographs that at least rival the output of the D2X and often
surpass it> SNIP
Yeah, but too bad about the three-shot buffer and the cheesy
focusing system and small,squinty viewfinder,eh? All that dynamic
range isn't much good on when the CAM900 autofocus module cannot
manage to pull focus on moving subjects.
You forgot the half stop exposure adjustments, the unpopular software, and that fact that it uses DTTL (which is an outdated, no longer used, obsolete Nikon flash system).
S3 images that "rival" the D2x? Hah. Robert Smith's portrait
samples which you have let languish show the S3 and D2x portrait
samples to be so close in color and overall tonality that nobody
can tell for sure which was shot with which.
Whatever you think about either camera, if you contend that one system "rivals" the other, then you should have trouble deciding which was used for the shot. This is probably another example of a shifting definition, just as +1 compensation on the D2X is ludicrous given the state-of-the-art, best-in-the-business, ne plus utra metering, but -1.7 compensation with the foo-foo curve is just what the doctor ordered.
 
--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel
Fu-ji EssWun(on extended loan),EssTu,Nik-On
DeeSvnD,DWun,DTuEx. And a E-Ohs TwunT-D
 
Dillon,

How come you did not point out that Dave Etchells notes that the S3 is a "six" megapixel camera, and that the S- and R-pixels must SHARE a single microlens.....in direct contrast toi your assertion that there are two microlenses,one for eacxh S- and one for each R-pixel....thus, shooting down your recent assertion that there are 12 million microlenses and that thus, the S3 is a 12 MP camera. The S3 is NOT a 12-MP camera, no matter how much smoke you and the others try and blow.

Just wondering why you and Artichoke do not defend the Fuji HyperUtilities software as the best converter for S3 RAW images....wondering why you and Artichoke do not look at the Etchells review of the S3 and admit that,yes, ADOBE actually has figured out how to best decode the wide-DR captures the S3 makes. Also, I am wondering why neither of you two are defending against the assertions that both phil Askey and Dave Etchells make that the S3 is prone to HIGH amouints of noise in certain area, (like skies and other large, even-toned areas)!

Just kind of wondering why neither ytou,nor Artichoke have responded to the AMAZING advantaghe the S3 has when shot in RAW mode and when the files are processed in Adobe Camera RAW? I mean Artichoke keeps insisting that the S3 is a JPEG camera,and that one must "think out of the box" in order to see that the S3 is NOT a raw camera. As Artichoke has said, shooting in RAW mode "disables the S3." Uh....no, shooting the S3 in RAW mode is the only way to get the best out of the camera--I mean, just LOOK, using your eyes, at the Askey Review and the Etchells review of the S3--Adobe Camera RAW simply mops up the FLOOR compareed with the S3's flat, weak-midtoned ouit of camera JPEGS.

All these fundamental fanboy assertions that one must "think outside the box" in order to "understand" a camera that is "disabled when shot in RAW mode" (Arti's quotes, not mine!)....all this is simply fanatical devotion to a camera. And, thje sad part is, the reviews PROVE that ACR is the best converter for recovering blown exposures,AND they PROVE that the Dynamic Range of the S3 is significantly wider when the S3 is shot in wide-DR RAW mode.

The facts hurt. THe two head S3 boosters, the guys who have whined and complained and ripped on Phil's review of the S3 continue to maintain that there is no "need" for the S3 to be shot in RAW....and YET, the Etchells rtewview shows how lousy the S3 is when shot in JPEG mode, comapred with in RAW mode, where the S3 actually can exhibit good,wide dynamic range,and good tonal representation that is CLEARLY,and easily MUCH better than when the camera is used in JPEG mode. So, despite Arti's constant harping that one needs to "think outside the box" and in doing so throw RAW shooting out the window,the Etchells review that Dillon is so fond of seems to make Arti's ":outside the box" comment slook more and more fallacious. Specious,if you will. A canard,shall we say.

Thinking out of the box,indeed; you guys need to go through the Etchells review and talk about the flaws the S3 is plagued with,and face the fact that all this DR you're talking about isn't even possible to achieve with the RAW converter Fuhi gives away in the USA and charges 200 Euro for. As I said to Artichoke a few months ago, and which he rebuked me for strongly--the Fuhi HyperUtility free/200 Euro softwarer packages is NOT as good as ACR is at converting S3 RAFs into workable images....but look at both Askey and Etchells' proof....Adobe has better softeware than Fuji does. I am soooooo tired of the fanatics distorting the truths about the S3,its softweare,and its capabilities. The Etchells review shows me one thing--that the S3 depends on RAW workflow for its best imaging. And that the Fuji HU software is lame.
 
simple things amuse simple minds .. thats all it can be ..
give in mate .. not worth the effort on these guys ..

have fun
gmd

--
People who quote others have nothing to say - GMD

 
Fuji certainly has had a lot of mystery about how they pulled off their magic

most folks state that each of the 12.3 M pixels have their own microlens ...I never said Dave Etchell was the last word on the S3 but actually one of a growing number of glowing reviews on this radically different DSLR

that a $2.3 K camera produces files as better as, if not superior to cameras costing $4.9 K is no small matter and a pretty undeniable fact

regarding focus: the S3 AF is noticeably better than that in the S2, which has been commented upon by reviewers as well as folks who use both cameras ...the D2X has a superior AF system as well as exposure metering, for sure, but for many this is just not worth the considerable premium in price ...for the price of the D2X one can buy two S3s and have money left to get a nice prime lens as well

Derrel, I think you have unfairly characterized what I have said about the S3, in regard to jpg vs RAW

RAW will always produce the very best results and it is an option that works best from my testings and that of others here, when used with HU2

ACR does not offer control for the mix of S & R sensors and does seem to produce > noise, particularly in shadows, from what I have seen ...for some this difference is not so great as to counter the greater speed and ease of use with ACR ...for the best from the S3, RAW conversion in HU2 is the way to go

BUT the jpgs from the S3 are so good that RAW just isn't needed for the purposes most would use the camera ...up to A3 size prints, I doubt that anyone would see enough difference to warrant the inconvenience of shooting RAW unless one was truly trying to push the DR to its maximum

the added DR is enjoyed even in jpg ...it is unquestionably there and Etchell's referred to this in his review making this comment in his conclusions:

"Taking JPEGs straight from the camera in its "Wide 2" dynamic range mode, results are numerically about 2/3 of an f-stop better than any other camera I've tested. Visually though, the results look to be more like a full stop or more." Yet you said Etchells found the S3's jpgs "lousy" which was clearly not the case ...almost all reviewers have been amazed with the quality of the jpgs from this radical camera ...this is a gross mischaracterization of what he wrote on your part

He did find ACR superior for RAW conversion, but I have not, nor have others here ...I don't think your sniping remarks about Fuji's HU2 are warranted ...some serious comparisons of shooting RAW and jpg with the S3 have been posted here by myself & others that clearly demonstrate the difference in IQ to not be all that great ...going with RAW is overkill for most purposes as the S3's jpgs are so fine, though RAW still does produce the finest from this camera which I have repeatedly asserted

we both have been kicked off this forum & I hope we are not heading down this path again, Derrel ...for many the S3 is a near perfect fit & it seems to me that unless you need the speed of the D2X, you would be better served with the S3, particularly if low light capabilities and wider DR are important to the photography you do
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
Artichoke,

No, I am not misrepresting your characterizations of the S3...you have perpetually said that the S3 does not "need" RAWQ capture,and that a JPEG workflow is "faster" than a RAW workflow. You have said that the S3 can capture images in JPEG that "no other D-SLR could make,even in RAW mode." On,and,on,and on. You have said that to shoot the S3 in RAW mode is in effect "disabling the camera". Your idea that the S3 is capable of capturing images that "no other D-SLR can make, even in RAW mode," is preposterous.

What about the low-light thing called FOCUS???? The D2x kicks heini on the S2/D70/S3/N80 and all the other low-end cameras,like the 20D. THe D2x can focus down to Minus 1 EV. With NO flash,and no assist beam!!! Low light is fine,m provided your camera can FOCUS. I submit that the D2x can capture images that cheap,consumer D-SLRs cannot make,simply due to the superiority of the D2x's mechanicals,and its state of the art focusing system.
Comparing a $320 body with a $5,000 state of the art Nikon is foolhardly.

When presented with evidence of the D2x's amazing image quality, you simply slink away....why not answer Robert Smiths thrad here,at this URL? Is it perhaps because RObert Smith was a die-hard S3 booster--until he got a Nikon D2x and found out just how amazing Nikon's flagship really is in the hands of an experienced, conscientous shooter? You know, I think wing88 is right....there's just no getting through to you S3 boosters and the guys who have never even owned a professionally-oriented camera from Kodak,or Canon,or Nikon. Wide DR is not needed by me, or most commercial shooters....I learned to make images on color slide film two decades ago, and the DR thing is overblown. Good focus, good metering,sophisticated flash metering, reliability,dependability, versatility,return on investment (in pictures MADE,in-focus,with the right exposure),and confidence are all areas where the S3 is simply an amateur snappewr's camera, or the slow worker's best friend. Nikon built the S3's basic subsystems. They are from a $320 camera. Fuji built a great sensor, but forgot about a buffer and the entire card writing and data handling system, as well as other areas. Fuji has great sensor technology.

I am shooting a night football game for my newspaper in a short while. I plan on using the 70-200 VR, in RAW mode, in BOTH 1.5x and 2.0x crop modes. Focus will be sketchy,even with the D2x. Action will be unpredictable. I might also lug the 300/2.8-II and the stick. I can depend on the D2x to make the most of the few opportunities I will get tonight. I simply cannot count on any significant help from the S3. And, as Robert Smith pointed out, the D2x has incredible resolution. At Hi-1 (1600 ISO more or less) with NR turned up to HIGH, the D2x will still out-resolve a 6MP Fuji. AND it will capture the shots that will either make me look good, or which will be a communitry-wide embarassment to me. So, you can shoot the low-light football games there in Houston using an S3....but I think I'll leave MY Fuji at home,and will focus on framing,timing,and focusing. Not on wide DR. And I will be shooting RAW mode at 5 to 8 frames per second,and using ONE lens almost as if it were two lenses! I shot the D1h for two years,along side the S2. Fuji was fine in 2003,when the best Nikon could muster were the D1h and D1x. It's 2005 now. A better sensor only counts if it can 1) SHOOT when the action is happening and 2) if it can capture a focused image,NOW!

The S3 can't do the last two things well enough for me. Is that so ahrd to understand? I cannot rely on a portrait/studio camera out in the nasty world. Oh, and it's going to rain tonight. Five hours in the rain will short out a D1h. I know--it happened to me. How long would an S3 last?
 
good luck with your night football game
I am happy you find your $5K money well spent
enjoy it
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
Hello Artichoke,

Strange but true - Derrel doesn't even own or use a S3. Most odd!

Anyway I've been thinking, whether its Phil, Rob or Dave or whoever - how much dedicated time, effort and experience goes into making these extended camera reviews. Whether pro or con, each of these reviews gives us knowledge and insight that helps us to be more creative. Also much of the positive feedback on this forum is really so useful that it can only help to make us better at our craft.

A few days ago Jonathan Kardell gave us a series of distinctive and useful postings - The Tiger Balm Jar Tests - where he took the time to carefully examine the S3 RAW vs JPG output in its various configurations. I noted with interest that when Jonathan did these tests he locked his S3 into position, with focus set at Manual and used a little known S3 feature, LIVE IMAGE enlargement for exact focus....

OK so here is what Phil wrote about Live Image in his S3 Digital Photography Review:

"No other digital SLR has ever been able to provide a live view on the LCD monitor, until now. The S3 Pro has a unique (if slightly pointless) feature. You can switch to a 'Live Image' mode which provides a video-like B&W live view feed direct from the sensor to the LCD monitor (just like a consumer digital camera). In this mode you can also magnify the center portion of the frame. The important limitations however are: (a) its for display only, you can not trigger the shutter release in this mode, (b) the viewfinder is blacked out because the mirror must swing up and shutter open, (c) the display is in black and white, (d) the display can only be provided for a maximum of 30 seconds. All in all this mode seems to be more of a technology stunt than a useful feature."

And Here is what Dave in his Imaging Resource S3 Review wrote about Live Image:

"While most digital SLRs offer an LCD panel, the LCD typically isn't available as a viewfinder, due to the digital SLR design. However, the S3 Pro breaks with tradition here, offering a "Live" mode that turns the LCD monitor into a viewfinder. When activated through the camera's main menu, Live Image mode opens the shutter for 30 seconds and displays the image area on the LCD monitor. You can't use the autofocus mechanism, but you can manually adjust focus and frame the shot. There's also an Enlarge option (activated by the up arrow key), which enlarges the center of the image to help you achieve a tight focus. The LCD monitor also provides both normal and zoomed playback of previously captured images, as well as a histogram overlay. (The S3's histogram overlay is unique in my experience in that it shows not only overall brightness values, but separate histograms for the red, green, and blue channels of the image separately."

Negative or Positive! An easy choice.

Herbert Bishko
 
Boy, you must be one unhappy person. Another long litany of the S3's faults according to Derrel. You need more than a camera. Some pyschotherapy, and some potent meds.
I am soooooo tired of the fanatics distorting the truths about the S3,its softweare,and its capabilities.
Why not just come to grips with the fact that people will differ when it comes to opinions on cameras? Why not let the S3 owners have their day?

Or in lieu of that, why not just do what you threatened to a few weeks ago? Why not just leave?
 
Comparing a $320 body with a $5,000 state of the art Nikon is
foolhardly.
this is cheap and morally wrong Derrel. you claim the S3 body is only $320. implying cheapness. yet you counter with the complete state of the art camera, thats right you compare a body vs a complete camera. that is fair? not even close. even the state of the art body is only $1700.

so you are implying the body makes the camera state of the are, not the sensor.

oh yea and on the sensor argument. they are 2 different type, kind of like apples vs oranges. unless once again i am to stupid to understand that.

why is it everytime you run out of objections you come back to the body argument? i could rant more, but i have said more than i wanted to
--
Kodachrome, they give us those nice bright colours
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world’s a sunny day, oh yeah
I got a nikon camera, I love to take a photograph
 
No matter what you say, no matter even if you speak highly about their toy, your words will be always taken out of context. There is nothing you can do against people that belong to a cult and has too much time in their hands. It is better we forget about them. It is plenty of S3 owners that are happy with the camera and are not fanatics, all the best to them. This is the people I want to read about, this is the people that should publish photos and give life to this forum. I'm actually happy if they make fantastic photos, I'm just tired of cult members spreading bs on things they don't even understand.

I'm tired of people that pretend to work for somebody but use the time to post on the internet cult propaganda. They must have a good flash because by my calculation they are out shooting only when it is night.

Thanks Derrel for your posts, there is so much to learn from you. Forget about the clowns!

--
Regards
Gabriele
California, CA
 
Forget about the clowns!
Yes! Forget about the clowns. You, the Sartori guy, the 'nut with all the latest toys, yes, you have made your points. You've done your best to deprogram the cultists. You've spent ungodly amounts of time trying to convince the S3 owners of their delusions. Post after post after post delineating the S3's faults in excruciating detail. But do they listen? No!

They are beyond hope. You have done your absolute best to break their spirits. It's not your fault they are so deluded, so don't hold it against yourselves. On to bigger and better targets. Hmmm. The E-people seem to have a fanatical love for their cameras. On to the Olympus forum! Hooooo!

--

The dynamic range of color negative film! Straight out of camera, no additional processing! Here:

l http://www.pbase.com/dillonjames/image/48536720/original
 
Dillon seems pretty correct here

Derrel, gmd/wing88/Gabriel Sartori have all haunted this forum with an agenda towards putting down the S3 since before it was released
all one has to do is look at what they posted

when gmd/wing88 cruelly criticized some early S3 photographs I put up, Gabriel was quick to pile on with a confirmatory deprecating post ...Gabriel still argues, even in this post, that he has some special insights about computers that give him some right to diss Fuji's engineering wizards, yet he was clearly shown to be dead wrong about his most impassioned contentions by folks who are genuine authorities in digital capture design ...have you no shame???

Derrel has always been admiring of the advances he sees in the S3 sensor's design and I think he has genuine disappointment that Fuji did not listen to his desires when they made the S3 ...get over it & be happy with your D2X (for which dpreview has its own dedicated forum, in case you missed this)

I hope they can all find happiness with their cameras ...why they all tend to return to FSLRT is beyond me, other than that they have been here for some time (Derrel & gmd/wing88 go back a bit with me and we had pretty friendly relations at one point, particularly with Derrel) ...maybe they don't like being one of the herd in the forums devoted to the DSLRs they favor

the hollowness of their anti S3 arguments is evident from their frequent descent into name calling and gross misrepresentation of what folks have written

many see the virtues of the S3 ...it has faults for sure, but by and large these are not big problems for folks who chose this camera
why these negativista continue their sorry (and boring) song is beyond me
the word is out

the S3 delivers the goods at a favorable price point and FSLRT is enjoying a increasing number of new owners happy with their cameras, despite the pathologic efforts of a shrinking number of naysayers to make us uncomfortable with this camera choice
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
Thank for the post Artichoke. I genuinely like that you did it. It reinforces so well everything I said in my previous post.
Thank you again!

--
Regards
Gabriele
California, CA
 
I'm one of these deluded fools who owns an S3. Am I happy: yes. Have I fully exploited it's capabilities: no. I'm "growing into" the camera and, based on the images I've seen and some of the positive aspects of the camera seen in reviews and from some forum members it suits my current and forseen needs.

I don't shoot motorsport, or any other activity that needs a "hose-em-down" beast. I want a camera that will deliver consistently excellent images in sometimes harsh lighting (ie a bright Aussie summer's day). It's my belief that extended DR is a real boon in these conditions.

As a frequent visitor to this forum, I am somewhat surprised that non-S3 owners monitor and spend so much time here. Why, I ask myself? If you do not have an S3 and are convinced it is not the camera for you, then there really is some other place you need to be, where your input and knowledge may be of considerable benefit.

The nikon SLR forum is over there---->

Now, S3 owners. If you are like me you have committed to this camera for a specific reason. Be it weddings, parties, frames in shadow or shooting a darned snow-scape, I don't care. But please, PLEASE continue to share images and advice as there are those of us continuing to learn and seeking inspiration. That's what I would like to see in this forum.

Thanks,

gafra
 
Dillon ( or James ? :-)

Over the past few years, Derrel has been an amazing source of
knowledge and help to FSLR forum members, despite his frequent
perceived zingers :-) . . .

You probably would not have the time to go back through his posts
over the years, but some of his actions to help others here have been
absolutely unique, for which members have been grateful.

Yes, he can irritate and be crusty, but it's been a lot of fun :-)

You made a fine choice of camera for YOUR needs.
Derrel also has HIS photographic needs. Obviously his needs are different
from yours. Each camera-owner has his/her own unique needs and
satisfactions, but we all share common joys in shooting.

You have been one of the most active dp posters I have ever seen,
thanks for all your useful contributions, ( compared to your own zingers :-)
I will look forward to your future S3 practical observations.

dp is definitely addictive, however many dp posters benefit from the
maxim - less posting, more shooting :-)

Good luck with your S3
( I am a little envious but resisting the siren call :-)

Keith
 

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