My 7D consistently BACKFOCUSES considerably

[David 000]

I'm going over to KMs UK service centre this afternoon with my KM lenses and sample photos and copies of the various threads on this discussion board. They are going to test the camera and the lenses for me.

Hopefully in a few hours I will have some answers particularly given the fact that its nearly 100 miles each way !

David

 

[distant]

Another thing I started thinking about is if the actual focuspoints are very small or are they in fact bigger than the points marked in the viewfinder.

When you're focusing on a small line on a paper. do you know for certain that the sensorspot is actually small enough to be able to focus exactly on a small line like the one shown on those focusing charts?

I just remembered somebody arguing that sometimes when the are used for spotmetering is specified to be 2%, the real value is often something around 6-8% or similar.

Regards,
Thomas

Hello,

I also started to suspect that my 7D foucsed in the wrong places,
so I decided to set up a test, the infamous Ruler test:

Setup for both shots below:

• Minolta 28mm 2.8 lens. Minimum Focus distance: 30 cm.
• Camera set to Single Shot AF for one shot,

and Manual Focus for the MF shot

• Aperture Mode, f2.8, s 1/60 Flash Used
• Campera put on a tripod
• Focused on number 20 on right side of Ruler in both cases.

Distance: 40 cm from camera lens.

Result:

Results repeated at least 10 times for AF with consistently the
same SUBSTANTIAL BACKFOCUS result! The number 30 is in focus!

My camera is going back. I will wait until KM fixes this. I so far
LOVE the rest of the camera and its imnage quality.

AF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_s_af.jpg

MF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_mf.jpg

Geir Ove

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[duprey26]

Another thought:

With these digital cameras are we now seeing an effect of heat expansion caused by the electronics affecting focus. In a film camera, there is very little that can affect the position of the film at the focal plane, but with the film replaced by a sensor, and in particular with the KM 7Dwith AS, there is a bit more mounting hardware whoose positioning ability may be affected by the heat generated by the electronic componenets in close proximity to them. Has anyone tried these tests on a "cold" vs. "warmed-up" camera?

Hello,

I also started to suspect that my 7D foucsed in the wrong places,
so I decided to set up a test, the infamous Ruler test:

Setup for both shots below:

• Minolta 28mm 2.8 lens. Minimum Focus distance: 30 cm.
• Camera set to Single Shot AF for one shot,

and Manual Focus for the MF shot

• Aperture Mode, f2.8, s 1/60 Flash Used
• Campera put on a tripod
• Focused on number 20 on right side of Ruler in both cases.

Distance: 40 cm from camera lens.

Result:

Results repeated at least 10 times for AF with consistently the
same SUBSTANTIAL BACKFOCUS result! The number 30 is in focus!

My camera is going back. I will wait until KM fixes this. I so far
LOVE the rest of the camera and its imnage quality.

AF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_s_af.jpg

MF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_mf.jpg

Geir Ove

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[Geir Ove]

Hot or cold camera is NOT something unique to a digital camera: Think about a + 35 deg C summer day versus a -25 deg vinter day! AND the effect of direct sunlight on the camera. Materials MUST be chosen to cancel these effects.

I have tried it: Temperature is NOT the answer

Geir Ove

With these digital cameras are we now seeing an effect of heat
expansion caused by the electronics affecting focus. In a film
camera, there is very little that can affect the position of the
film at the focal plane, but with the film replaced by a sensor,
and in particular with the KM 7Dwith AS, there is a bit more
mounting hardware whoose positioning ability may be affected by the
heat generated by the electronic componenets in close proximity to
them. Has anyone tried these tests on a "cold" vs. "warmed-up"
camera?

Hello,

I also started to suspect that my 7D foucsed in the wrong places,
so I decided to set up a test, the infamous Ruler test:

Setup for both shots below:

• Minolta 28mm 2.8 lens. Minimum Focus distance: 30 cm.
• Camera set to Single Shot AF for one shot,

and Manual Focus for the MF shot

• Aperture Mode, f2.8, s 1/60 Flash Used
• Campera put on a tripod
• Focused on number 20 on right side of Ruler in both cases.

Distance: 40 cm from camera lens.

Result:

Results repeated at least 10 times for AF with consistently the
same SUBSTANTIAL BACKFOCUS result! The number 30 is in focus!

My camera is going back. I will wait until KM fixes this. I so far
LOVE the rest of the camera and its imnage quality.

AF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_s_af.jpg

MF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_mf.jpg

Geir Ove

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[Geir Ove]

I have also sent reports to KM Germany, and also to my local dealer who will take action.

I would LOVE to find solution to my problems, as I love the rest of the camera

Geir Ove

I'm going over to KMs UK service centre this afternoon with my KM
lenses and sample photos and copies of the various threads on this
discussion board. They are going to test the camera and the
lenses for me.

Hopefully in a few hours I will have some answers particularly
given the fact that its nearly 100 miles each way !

David

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[Geir Ove]

This NOT a problem of the Engineers. They are perfectly capable of solviing ALL this issues. How do you think Nasa got the space shuttle in orbit?

The problems are the economists pushing the engineers to:

a) Releae the camera before it's finsihed, because this is a good shooping season

b) Forcing engineers to use second grade components where the engineer would choose the ones that works

I have worked in a Hardware company for years and seen this all to many times.

Geir Ove

There is nothing magic to it. Set the AF to center point. Put
camera on Tripod. Have good contrast target. Press shutter button
and wait until camera confirms focus.

if things are that easy, why don't you develop your own cam? ;-)
You better start reading the article and try to understand how
complex the problem is.

I have worked as an hardware engineer for years with lab testing
and developoment.

So what? Is this an advantage or disadvantage? If every hardware
engineer would do no mistakes, we users would have no hardware to
complain about.

This is the camera's problem, or camera lens
combination

You forgot to mention the possibilities of a general problem with
that lens or a problem with your lens in particular...

Regards

Dat Ei
--
'Charter Member of the Konica Minolta 7D Adoption Society'

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[duprey26]

The difference with a film camera is that a hot or cold day affects the camera as a whole, pentaprism included, whereas with a digital camera, the heating can be very localized due to the proximity of the electronics. I could picture a situation where the optical path lengths between the AF sensors in th OVF and the imaging sensor are different. This could be amplified by KM's AS technology, with the servo motors used to vibrate the sensor causing significant heating under certain conditions. One would hope that the design engineers took this into consideration, but I'm just suggesting it as a possibility.

I have tried it: Temperature is NOT the answer

Geir Ove

With these digital cameras are we now seeing an effect of heat
expansion caused by the electronics affecting focus. In a film
camera, there is very little that can affect the position of the
film at the focal plane, but with the film replaced by a sensor,
and in particular with the KM 7Dwith AS, there is a bit more
mounting hardware whoose positioning ability may be affected by the
heat generated by the electronic componenets in close proximity to
them. Has anyone tried these tests on a "cold" vs. "warmed-up"
camera?

Hello,

I also started to suspect that my 7D foucsed in the wrong places,
so I decided to set up a test, the infamous Ruler test:

Setup for both shots below:

• Minolta 28mm 2.8 lens. Minimum Focus distance: 30 cm.
• Camera set to Single Shot AF for one shot,

and Manual Focus for the MF shot

• Aperture Mode, f2.8, s 1/60 Flash Used
• Campera put on a tripod
• Focused on number 20 on right side of Ruler in both cases.

Distance: 40 cm from camera lens.

Result:

Results repeated at least 10 times for AF with consistently the
same SUBSTANTIAL BACKFOCUS result! The number 30 is in focus!

My camera is going back. I will wait until KM fixes this. I so far
LOVE the rest of the camera and its imnage quality.

AF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_s_af.jpg

MF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_mf.jpg

Geir Ove

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[torsteinvh]

Please let us know KM Germany and your dealers reaction to your problem.

-Torstein

I have also sent reports to KM Germany, and also to my local dealer
who will take action.

I would LOVE to find solution to my problems, as I love the rest of
the camera

Geir Ove

 

[David 000]

Just got back from the KM Service Centre at Milton Keynes. I took my camera along with my lenses and a selection of poorly focussed prints.

One of their technicians tested the camera - nothing sceintific he just took some pics in P mode and reviewed them on the screen. Firstly he agreed that there was a focus problem. He thinks the most likely cause is a misalignment of the CCD and I was asked to leave the camera there for repair.

Unfortunately they have not received any of the software required for making adjustments - They estimate that it could be another month...He was confident that with the software they could sort out the problem.

This prompted a call to Jessops - I told them that the unit was confirmed as faulty and that I would like a replacement or my money back. Good news is that they are going to give me another camera tomorrow morning My branch has one there on order that has not been collected !

I also spoke to the KM customer service manager - she said that supplies in the UK are very short and they still don't know when they will get more. In fact serveral of the staff came out to see my camera as it was the first time they had even seen one ! She also said that they will be launching more digital SLRs and that it would probably be a 5 rather than a 9 which is understandable.

Well hopefully it looks like my problems are nearly over - of course I will take my lenses along tomorrow to test the new camera so fingers crossed...

David

I'm going over to KMs UK service centre this afternoon with my KM
lenses and sample photos and copies of the various threads on this
discussion board. They are going to test the camera and the
lenses for me.

Hopefully in a few hours I will have some answers particularly
given the fact that its nearly 100 miles each way !

David

 

[Geir Ove]

Thanks a LOT David: please also test and report on your new camera!

My camera is also going back.

Geir Ove

One of their technicians tested the camera - nothing sceintific he
just took some pics in P mode and reviewed them on the screen.
Firstly he agreed that there was a focus problem. He thinks the
most likely cause is a misalignment of the CCD and I was asked to
leave the camera there for repair.

Unfortunately they have not received any of the software required
for making adjustments - They estimate that it could be another
month...He was confident that with the software they could sort out
the problem.

This prompted a call to Jessops - I told them that the unit was
confirmed as faulty and that I would like a replacement or my money
back. Good news is that they are going to give me another camera
tomorrow morning My branch has one there on order that has not
been collected !

I also spoke to the KM customer service manager - she said that
supplies in the UK are very short and they still don't know when
they will get more. In fact serveral of the staff came out to see
my camera as it was the first time they had even seen one ! She
also said that they will be launching more digital SLRs and that it
would probably be a 5 rather than a 9 which is understandable.

Well hopefully it looks like my problems are nearly over - of
course I will take my lenses along tomorrow to test the new camera
so fingers crossed...

David

I'm going over to KMs UK service centre this afternoon with my KM
lenses and sample photos and copies of the various threads on this
discussion board. They are going to test the camera and the
lenses for me.

Hopefully in a few hours I will have some answers particularly
given the fact that its nearly 100 miles each way !

David

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[David 000]

Geir

Have already posted this on another thread but in case you don't see it - I have swapped cameras and the new one works fine on all my lenses !

I'm really pleased - its like the day I first bought the camera all over again - I can't wait to get out and start shooting - only problem is I've sent my best lens back to Sigma - when I thought that was to blame for the problem.

If your KM centre says there are no problems get them to contact KM in the UK - speak to Evan...

I hope you get yours sorted out soon...

Best of Luck

David

My camera is also going back.

Geir Ove

One of their technicians tested the camera - nothing sceintific he
just took some pics in P mode and reviewed them on the screen.
Firstly he agreed that there was a focus problem. He thinks the
most likely cause is a misalignment of the CCD and I was asked to
leave the camera there for repair.

Unfortunately they have not received any of the software required
for making adjustments - They estimate that it could be another
month...He was confident that with the software they could sort out
the problem.

This prompted a call to Jessops - I told them that the unit was
confirmed as faulty and that I would like a replacement or my money
back. Good news is that they are going to give me another camera
tomorrow morning My branch has one there on order that has not
been collected !

I also spoke to the KM customer service manager - she said that
supplies in the UK are very short and they still don't know when
they will get more. In fact serveral of the staff came out to see
my camera as it was the first time they had even seen one ! She
also said that they will be launching more digital SLRs and that it
would probably be a 5 rather than a 9 which is understandable.

Well hopefully it looks like my problems are nearly over - of
course I will take my lenses along tomorrow to test the new camera
so fingers crossed...

David

I'm going over to KMs UK service centre this afternoon with my KM
lenses and sample photos and copies of the various threads on this
discussion board. They are going to test the camera and the
lenses for me.

Hopefully in a few hours I will have some answers particularly
given the fact that its nearly 100 miles each way !

David

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[Geir Ove]

Have already posted this on another thread but in case you don't
see it - I have swapped cameras and the new one works fine on all
my lenses !

I'm really pleased - its like the day I first bought the camera all
over again - I can't wait to get out and start shooting - only
problem is I've sent my best lens back to Sigma - when I thought
that was to blame for the problem.

If your KM centre says there are no problems get them to contact KM
in the UK - speak to Evan...

I hope you get yours sorted out soon...

Best of Luck

David

My camera is also going back.

Geir Ove

One of their technicians tested the camera - nothing sceintific he
just took some pics in P mode and reviewed them on the screen.
Firstly he agreed that there was a focus problem. He thinks the
most likely cause is a misalignment of the CCD and I was asked to
leave the camera there for repair.

Unfortunately they have not received any of the software required
for making adjustments - They estimate that it could be another
month...He was confident that with the software they could sort out
the problem.

This prompted a call to Jessops - I told them that the unit was
confirmed as faulty and that I would like a replacement or my money
back. Good news is that they are going to give me another camera
tomorrow morning My branch has one there on order that has not
been collected !

I also spoke to the KM customer service manager - she said that
supplies in the UK are very short and they still don't know when
they will get more. In fact serveral of the staff came out to see
my camera as it was the first time they had even seen one ! She
also said that they will be launching more digital SLRs and that it
would probably be a 5 rather than a 9 which is understandable.

Well hopefully it looks like my problems are nearly over - of
course I will take my lenses along tomorrow to test the new camera
so fingers crossed...

David

I'm going over to KMs UK service centre this afternoon with my KM
lenses and sample photos and copies of the various threads on this
discussion board. They are going to test the camera and the
lenses for me.

Hopefully in a few hours I will have some answers particularly
given the fact that its nearly 100 miles each way !

David

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[Geir Ove]

For heavens sake, you have to design from what you got. That's also the case for Formula 1 Car designers where stress and heat is different than your average car. That's called Engineering.

Geir Ove

I have tried it: Temperature is NOT the answer

Geir Ove

With these digital cameras are we now seeing an effect of heat
expansion caused by the electronics affecting focus. In a film
camera, there is very little that can affect the position of the
film at the focal plane, but with the film replaced by a sensor,
and in particular with the KM 7Dwith AS, there is a bit more
mounting hardware whoose positioning ability may be affected by the
heat generated by the electronic componenets in close proximity to
them. Has anyone tried these tests on a "cold" vs. "warmed-up"
camera?

Hello,

I also started to suspect that my 7D foucsed in the wrong places,
so I decided to set up a test, the infamous Ruler test:

Setup for both shots below:

• Minolta 28mm 2.8 lens. Minimum Focus distance: 30 cm.
• Camera set to Single Shot AF for one shot,

and Manual Focus for the MF shot

• Aperture Mode, f2.8, s 1/60 Flash Used
• Campera put on a tripod
• Focused on number 20 on right side of Ruler in both cases.

Distance: 40 cm from camera lens.

Result:

Results repeated at least 10 times for AF with consistently the
same SUBSTANTIAL BACKFOCUS result! The number 30 is in focus!

My camera is going back. I will wait until KM fixes this. I so far
LOVE the rest of the camera and its imnage quality.

AF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_s_af.jpg

MF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_mf.jpg

Geir Ove

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[lcmacedo]

...

I tested my 7D shooting a 48" ruler focusing with the center point at the 10", 20" and 30" marks. I did that with three lenses: Minolta 50/f1.7, Minolta 100-300/f4.5-5.6 APO and Tamron 24-135/f3.5-5.6. All at ISO 800, no flash, AS on.
All shots came out with perfect focus at the target points.
Below in one example tanken with the Tamron at 75mm and f5.6.



... Lucas

 

[lcmacedo]

... that in the example I targeted the 30"mark.

... Lucas

 

[Geir Ove]

Hello

Just a correction to myself: Since the AF system may hunt (oscillate), the AF system must be a Closed Lopp Control System.

This means in plain english that there must be some feedback to the AF system telling what the lens position is: This feedback is proabably located in the lens.

If the lens feedback potentiometer has slack (deadband) or is outside its specified valuies (due to component variation: Buying cheap components...) then the lens may be the one to blame.

Geir Ove

IF the Focus System uses an Open Loop Regulation Stepping Motor to
adjust the distance indicated by the camera AF system, then it
might step to far or short if the Stepping Motor Accelration /
Deceleration table is not carefully followed (How fast the Lens
Motor accellerates up to speed and slows down again to hit the
target posision: This depends upon load). This also explains how
one lens can work, and another NOT: IT depends on the LOAD the lens
exerts on the AF Stepping Motor.

From my last tests, it looks like the above can be the case: If I
put the lens at Infninity it backfocuses LESS than if it is preset
at the near limit before the test. See test results below.

If my assumptions here are correct, the AF motor is acrually to
blame. Since the lens contains NO LOGIC, I cannot see how the lens
can fail.

However, if the lens contains FEEDBACK of the lens position (Closed
Loop Regulation) , this feedback info may be innacurate and thus
some lenses may be to blame.

Focus preset at Infinity before focus test:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/focus_preset_at_infinity.jpg

Focus preset at Near Limit (0.25 cm) before test:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/focus_preset_at_near_limit.jpg

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

 

[Roland Karlsson]

I am still dissapointed that we have to put up with this kind of
innaccuracies with equipment in this price range. After all, what
is a OUT OF FOCUS picture worth? AND, it is NOT Rocket Science to
get a piece of AF system to work. We are daily surrounded with far
more presice and complicated consumer electronics.

Hi Geir,

You have to understand that the sensor, the mirror and the
autofocus detector all have to be aligned at a very high accuracy
to get correct focussing. There is also the issue of the protective
glass in front of the sensor that disturbs the optical path a
different amount for differently designed lenses.

Lets say that the picture is 1 mm out of focus and that
you have a 20:1 object to picture ratio. Then, the sensor,
the mirror or the auto focus sensor is 50 um unaligned.
50 um is not a large distance.

One of the main advantages of very expensive pro cameras
is that this accuracy is much higher.

Another solutuon is to buy a camera that focusses on the
sensor. Then the demand on mechanical accuracy is 0. DSLR
does not do that, but consumer cameras does. Now ... the
contrast method that is used in those cameras is slow an non
accurate. So ... it is not a good choice in any case.

Roland

 

[iammobay]

Hello,

I also started to suspect that my 7D foucsed in the wrong places,
so I decided to set up a test, the infamous Ruler test:

I want to thank Geir Ove for his hard work to understand the auto focus performance of the 7D. He has made a significant contribution to this forum by taking the time to carefully document and share the results of several experiments he conducted to confirm his initial observation that something was wrong with his camera.

From other credible reports it is clear that the problem is not limited to his specific camera. I suspect we all want to know more about this apparent performance limitation and what KM will be able to do to minimize the impact on our photographic efforts.

My suspicion is that the underlying issue has to do with the difficulty of knowing the zero position of an image sensor that is mounted on a moving platform. I think of it as the camera must ask “where is it (image sensor) now with respect to the focus point (snsor array) so that the lens is precisely positioned with the image sensor. There must be a calibration position that provides a repeatable reference for knowing the current real position of the image sensor with respect to the other parts.

There is no basis for speculating on what will be involved to fix this problem so we must wait for the Mind of Minolta to do its magic a little better.

I have been buying from Minolta for over 30 years now and I expect that there will be a Minolta DSLR in my bag (soon?). Not sure yet if it will be the first 7D or not.

 

[dkloi]

My suspicion is that the underlying issue has to do with the
difficulty of knowing the zero position of an image sensor that is
mounted on a moving platform. I think of it as the camera must ask
“where is it (image sensor) now with respect to the focus point
(snsor array) so that the lens is precisely positioned with the
image sensor. There must be a calibration position that provides a
repeatable reference for knowing the current real position of the
image sensor with respect to the other parts.

The CCD moves in the plane of focus, it should be quite simple to design a mount that restricts motion in the out-of-plane direction to well within tolerances. If the CCD was misaligned, then all lenses should show the same backfocus behavior (the CCD would have to be mounted slightly forward of the nominal plane of focus), and manual focussing should show the same backfocus as AF.

When I manually focus, the photo is in focus, I can assume that the CCD, reflex mirror and finder screen are in correct relative orientation and position.

I see a pattern with the problem with my lenses. The ones with large exit pupils seem to be the worst (85mm/1.4, 100/2, 50mm/1.4 50mm/1.7), whilst those with relatively small exit pupils (35mm/2, 50mm/2.8, 20mm/2.8, 24-50mm/4) seem to be much better. The 100mm/2.8 macro and 70-210mm/4 seem to be the odd ones out (they seem to focus OK). I suspect it is a problem with the AF optical path and sensor.

Cheers,
Daniel.

 

[duprey26]

It is called engineering, and as an engineer that works daily in the real world, I can tell you that often times, in the rush to get a product to market, things get overlooked. As I mentioned, I would expect that the KM engineers considered all of this, but they may not have had the time to get the fidelity of testing they would have liked to know for certain that the design choices they made in this case were sufficient. I am not suggesting this is the case with your camera; it's very likely that you received a defective camera with a misaligned sensor. I was merely trying to suggest that because of the (rather significant) differences between film and digital imaging, that items such as this could be the cause of the seemingly higher rate of poor focusing among all brands of DSLR's over their film counterparts.

As for your analogy, I think it is poor in this case. Formula 1 cars are designed from the ground up for one pupose and share little if any components of an everyday automobile. In the case of a DSLR, all of the major manufacturers are attempting to retrofit a digital imager into an existing film design, and maintain as much commonality as possible. They do this to decrease time to market, and increase margin.

Geir Ove

I have tried it: Temperature is NOT the answer

Geir Ove

With these digital cameras are we now seeing an effect of heat
expansion caused by the electronics affecting focus. In a film
camera, there is very little that can affect the position of the
film at the focal plane, but with the film replaced by a sensor,
and in particular with the KM 7Dwith AS, there is a bit more
mounting hardware whoose positioning ability may be affected by the
heat generated by the electronic componenets in close proximity to
them. Has anyone tried these tests on a "cold" vs. "warmed-up"
camera?

Hello,

I also started to suspect that my 7D foucsed in the wrong places,
so I decided to set up a test, the infamous Ruler test:

Setup for both shots below:

• Minolta 28mm 2.8 lens. Minimum Focus distance: 30 cm.
• Camera set to Single Shot AF for one shot,

and Manual Focus for the MF shot

• Aperture Mode, f2.8, s 1/60 Flash Used
• Campera put on a tripod
• Focused on number 20 on right side of Ruler in both cases.

Distance: 40 cm from camera lens.

Result:

Results repeated at least 10 times for AF with consistently the
same SUBSTANTIAL BACKFOCUS result! The number 30 is in focus!

My camera is going back. I will wait until KM fixes this. I so far
LOVE the rest of the camera and its imnage quality.

AF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_s_af.jpg

MF sample:

http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/temp_images/ruler_mf.jpg

Geir Ove

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/

--
My album at: http://objective.bitfikler.com/geirove/web/