Z8 macro resolution, live view versus capture

[CrankAddict]

I've hit this several times and I can't figure it out. I'll have the Z8 + 105 macro on a tripod and I'm using the live view and fully zooming in. The details will be very sharp. I'm looking at things like the text on a watch dial. Then I'll take the picture (5 or even 10 second delay) and when I use the zoom to the same level on the capture it is nowhere near as sharp. Am I missing something here? How could the sensor+optics produce a sharper image for the zoomed live view than it can for the actual capture? I'm doing RAW, FX, etc. To be clear, the resulting image doesn't look soft at normal zoom in Photolab or exported to a smaller resolution. But I'm never able to get back to that sharpness at 100% zoom again, either on the camera display or in Photolab or NX Studio.

 

[TheSoaringSprite]

I've hit this several times and I can't figure it out. I'll have the Z8 + 105 macro on a tripod and I'm using the live view and fully zooming in. The details will be very sharp. I'm looking at things like the text on a watch dial. Then I'll take the picture (5 or even 10 second delay) and when I use the zoom to the same level on the capture it is nowhere near as sharp. Am I missing something here? How could the sensor+optics produce a sharper image for the zoomed live view than it can for the actual capture? I'm doing RAW, FX, etc. To be clear, the resulting image doesn't look soft at normal zoom in Photolab or exported to a smaller resolution. But I'm never able to get back to that sharpness at 100% zoom again, either on the camera display or in Photolab or NX Studio.

Do you have VR activated? VR should be turned off when working on a tripod. Can you post the sample images? What settings were used as far as shutter speed, etc.?

 

[Rodenmg]

If you are shooting raw only then when you preview your shot you are looking at the tiny embedded jpg in the raw file.



If you shoot raw+large jpg you will be looking at the hi rez jpg in preview.



This is the main reason I always shoot raw+L jpg.

 

[sirhawkeye64]

I've hit this several times and I can't figure it out. I'll have the Z8 + 105 macro on a tripod and I'm using the live view and fully zooming in. The details will be very sharp. I'm looking at things like the text on a watch dial. Then I'll take the picture (5 or even 10 second delay) and when I use the zoom to the same level on the capture it is nowhere near as sharp. Am I missing something here? How could the sensor+optics produce a sharper image for the zoomed live view than it can for the actual capture? I'm doing RAW, FX, etc. To be clear, the resulting image doesn't look soft at normal zoom in Photolab or exported to a smaller resolution. But I'm never able to get back to that sharpness at 100% zoom again, either on the camera display or in Photolab or NX Studio.

Do you have IBIS/VR turned off? (I can't remember if the Z8 disables this automatically when the lens is attached or not as I don't have my at the moment to test.)

Are you using auto focus? For macro, auto focus can sometimes miss focus even though it may say it has locked focus (or it has locked focus, but maybe not exactly where you want).

So far, my shots on my Z8 and macro have been good, short of me making a DOF error, but I also always use EDM and turn off IBIS/VR.

--
* PLEASE NOTE: I generally unsubscribe from forums/comments after a period of time has passed, so if I do not respond, that is likely the reason. *

 

[CrankAddict]

That's a very interesting bit of info! I shoot raw only (no jpg). I will try an experiment next time with raw + large to see if that changes things. As mentioned I've never really noticed "poor" image quality once I get them to the PC. But the A/B comparison on the monitor had me thinking that the images were way softer than they could have been. But perhaps not. Perhaps the captured raw was equal to what I saw in live view, and just the playback thumbnail is junk.

 

[f16falcona46]

What aperture are you shooting at? If you're shooting at, say, f/32, the lens will still only stop down to f/5.6 while focusing, but when actually shooting it will stop down to f/32 and your image will become very soft due to diffraction.

 

[Rodenmg]

That's a very interesting bit of info! I shoot raw only (no jpg). I will try an experiment next time with raw + large to see if that changes things. As mentioned I've never really noticed "poor" image quality once I get them to the PC. But the A/B comparison on the monitor had me thinking that the images were way softer than they could have been. But perhaps not. Perhaps the captured raw was equal to what I saw in live view, and just the playback thumbnail is junk.

When you start zooming in on your captured image you’ll see a huge difference between the thumbnail and the L jpg.



But be aware that if you send raw to card A and jpg to card B you will still only see the raw thumbnail.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

Do you have VR activated? VR should be turned off when working on a tripod.

A minor detail - of the 8 Z lenses I own with in-lens VR, this is the only one for which Nikon recommend turning VR off when on a tripod.

As others have suggested sample images would help.

A possibility if using manual focus or focus lock and the tripod is not very stable is there be body/lens movement during the 8-10 seconds delay before the shutter operates.

--
Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is similar to learning to play a piano - it takes practice to develop skill in either activity.

 

[jthomas39]

If you are shooting raw only then when you preview your shot you are looking at the tiny embedded jpg in the raw file.

If you shoot raw+large jpg you will be looking at the hi rez jpg in preview.

This is the main reason I always shoot raw+L jpg.

My Z6 iii doesn't work this way. I was surprised to find out that the embedded jpg in the .NEF file is full size, 6040 x 4024, at about "jpg basic" sharpness.

A google search says that other Z cameras work this way too.

And Thom Hogan's Guide mentions this.

I've been shooting raw+jpg fine*. The "*" works better in an editor, allowing more extensive changes. I occasionally use the jpg directly, but most of the time, it's just a "what I saw in the viewfinder" reference image for my raw edits. I've started shooting raw only lately, since the embedded jpg is reasonable for this reference use.

A quick test of my 24 mp Z6 iii:

The lossless compressed raw file is 26,700 kb.

I shot three raw+jpg pairs, with:

jpg fine*: 11,100 KB

jpg fine: 9000 KB

jpg basic: 1600 KB. Smaller than I expected.

~~~

Then I renamed the jpg basic so it wouldn't be paired, and viewed both the raw and this renamed jpg in FastRawViewer, which has the choice of viewing the demosaiced raw image, the internal jpg, or the jpg pair. (it grays out the internal jpg choice if there's a paired jpg, so I renamed this paired jpg.)

Zoomed to 200%, the embedded jpg and the paired basic jpg look very similar. The paired jpg is slightly sharper, but it also has noticeable sharpening halos visible on the contrast edges. Either one is fine for evaluating sharpness.

Ha, viewing the photos in camera with the new 400% zoom on the Z6 iii firmware 2.0, I can see those sharpening halos. That's a big zoom!

 

[Rodenmg]

If you are shooting raw only then when you preview your shot you are looking at the tiny embedded jpg in the raw file.

If you shoot raw+large jpg you will be looking at the hi rez jpg in preview.

This is the main reason I always shoot raw+L jpg.

My Z6 iii doesn't work this way. I was surprised to find out that the embedded jpg in the .NEF file is full size, 6040 x 4024, at about "jpg basic" sharpness.

A google search says that other Z cameras work this way too.

And Thom Hogan's Guide mentions this.

I've been shooting raw+jpg fine*. The "*" works better in an editor, allowing more extensive changes. I occasionally use the jpg directly, but most of the time, it's just a "what I saw in the viewfinder" reference image for my raw edits. I've started shooting raw only lately, since the embedded jpg is reasonable for this reference use.

A quick test of my 24 mp Z6 iii:

The lossless compressed raw file is 26,700 kb.

I shot three raw+jpg pairs, with:

jpg fine*: 11,100 KB

jpg fine: 9000 KB

jpg basic: 1600 KB. Smaller than I expected.

~~~

Then I renamed the jpg basic so it wouldn't be paired, and viewed both the raw and this renamed jpg in FastRawViewer, which has the choice of viewing the demosaiced raw image, the internal jpg, or the jpg pair. (it grays out the internal jpg choice if there's a paired jpg, so I renamed this paired jpg.)

Zoomed to 200%, the embedded jpg and the paired basic jpg look very similar. The paired jpg is slightly sharper, but it also has noticeable sharpening halos visible on the contrast edges. Either one is fine for evaluating sharpness.

Ha, viewing the photos in camera with the new 400% zoom on the Z6 iii firmware 2.0, I can see those sharpening halos. That's a big zoom!

I got my cameras confused. I was thinking about my Fuji GFX.

on it the embedded jpg is very small. There is very little difference on the Nikon.

Again, my apologies .

Thanks for correcting me.
... Mike
... https://www.flickr.com/photos/198581502@N02/

 

[BasilG]

I do not have a good answer for you, other than that posting one of the (possibly) affected pictures as an example would help.

However, I feel it is worth noting that you have been provided with multiple pieces of outdated information:

- Turning off VR on a tripod is generally not needed anymore. Most lenses can detect this and will behave accordingly.

- The JPG embedded in RAW files is full size, not tiny (though it is strongly compressed).

So, what you do should work o.k., with the caveat that stopping down way past f/5.6 might cause diffraction-induced softness. Making sure that focus does not shift during exposure (i.e. using manual focus or using AF-ON rather than the shutter release to activate AF) should help.

 

[Ernie Misner]

Do you have VR activated? VR should be turned off when working on a tripod.

A minor detail - of the 8 Z lenses I own with in-lens VR, this is the only one for which Nikon recommend turning VR off when on a tripod.

Hello, Leonard. The MC 105 is the only one (of 8) lenses you own that Nikon recommends turning VR off when on the tripod? That is very interesting. In spite of what Nikon recommends, do you personally turn VR off when on the tripod with most of your lenses? I turn mine off, but will turn the VR on if wind is vibrating the tripod.

As others have suggested sample images would help.

A possibility if using manual focus or focus lock and the tripod is not very stable is there be body/lens movement during the 8-10 seconds delay before the shutter operates.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

The MC 105 is the only one (of 8) lenses you own that Nikon recommends turning VR off when on the tripod? That is very interesting.

The reason for the 105 macro advice could be that the CIPA test for VR uses a bunch bigger subject size than a typical macro subject.

Most people know that as you are focus closer the effects of camera shake increases.

Often the increase is by what most would call a negligible amount.

From memory Nikon suggested with the original 105 VR that the threshold was a subject no more than 6 feet wide.

Discounting the effect of focus breathing (that most macro lenses have to some extent) by a 1.5 inch wide macro subject size on FX format - the effect of camera shake increases by a significant two shutter speeds :-(

In spite of what Nikon recommends, do you personally turn VR off when on the tripod with most of your lenses?

With macro and a good tripod I usually turn VR off - otherwise nearly always on.

Slightly technical, IBIS on a body that has it has to be on for in-lens VR to work.

I turn mine off, but will turn the VR on if wind is vibrating the tripod.

If you have recent lenses with around five steps VR ability – I strongly suggest you experiment with the opposite i.e. Sport mode normally on.

Any notion that VR normally does more harm than good for most photographers with recent equipment seems to be around 10 year old history.

On the wildlife and sports forums that I frequent those with recent equipment invariably seem to leave VR normally on

I have mentioned before that recent VR performance is now so good that sport mode can normally be used to reduce or eliminate the chance of the view finder image jumping after a photo is taken.

Sometimes overlooked is that with moving subjects VR on helps keep the AF point on the subject with a higher chance of keeping AF accurately focussed where intended.

It is possible that occasionally zooming in to more than 100% shows slightly reduced background quality with VR on – perhaps no more than one in 50 images.

I find this type of problem is easily dealt with in post – and much prefer many more images pin sharp when zoomed in on a monitor.