Yet another 5D vs 40D thread (serious question inside)

[chinch]

unless you need 6.5fps and/or WANT the 1.6x crop/zoom factor get the 5D

5D is better high ISO lets get real. compare RAW to RAW not jpg processed/filtered.

f/4 is always "disappointing" in what light it collects that is yet another advantage of the 5D and it's much larger, light collecting sensor with less noisy high-ISO.

all those nice L primes are less than ideal with the 1.6x crop/zoom unfortunately whereas they feel great (just right) on the FF body.

there is no easier way to say it and any more explaining is pointless.

ps - 40d isn't weather sealed... it has foam tape in some spots LOL. Next 5D will have the same "feature".

OK, I looked at all the old historical threads on this and even
re-read Ken Rockwell's reviews.

We all know the advantages and strengths of each camera:
5D: Better ISO perf at 800+, FF, sharper detail, etc
40D: 6fps, weather sealed, better LCD, sensor cleaning, newer
technology, etc..

I played with a 5D for two weeks and the IQ was stunning. However
the 24-105 f4 was disappointing in LL. I had to rely on the ISO perf
of the body. Not a bad thing I guess, and IS really helps.

My question (which I didn't see answered) is this:
Would it be better for me to buy the 40D and take the money saved to
invest in the great L prime lenses (14L 35L 85L)? Specifically,
would a great prime lens on a 40D nullify the lack of ISO perf buy
allowing one to avoid having to even go to a higher ISO?

I'm especially looking for answers from people who have used primes
on both cameras or the 40D alone.

 

[Anil Koshy]

OK, I looked at all the old historical threads on this and even
re-read Ken Rockwell's reviews.

We all know the advantages and strengths of each camera:
5D: Better ISO perf at 800+, FF, sharper detail, etc
40D: 6fps, weather sealed, better LCD, sensor cleaning, newer
technology, etc..

Have you considered buying an XTi in lieu of a 40D, to tide things over, before the 5D II get announced ? That is assuming you need the camera NOW. The good thing is that the XTi sells brand-new for less than $550, or even less used.

I think the XTi and the 40D uses the same 10MP sensor (slightly smaller than the 30D), just that the 40D saves the image in 14-bit RAW.

Obviously, you can pair the XTi with the best glass possible and then decide after the 5DII gets here, whether you want to buy it or not or invest in a 40D (either way, you will have the XTi as a backup or use it with the other as a pair, with a different lens mounted on it). Just another idea.

--
--- Anil ----
Gear: A couple of cameras & tripods/flash etc.

 

[andym107]

Until the new 5D is announced wait, it most likely will be announced
at PMA in early 08 Feb 1. The major price dropping is telling you
this.
If you can not wait i would get the 5D, and buy a 35MM F1.4 to go
with it. you will never look back.

Good point, but I definitely can't wait. I need a new body now. ;-)
The like-new 5D's are going for $1770-$1900 on eBay, so price between
40D and 5D is not that big a deal. I am mainly shooting pics of my

difference.

When I played with the 5D for a couple of weeks, the shutter lag,
slow fps, and slow CF card writes were annoying. ....but that IQ was
like OMG!!!! So what I wonder is if the 40D will be a major
disappointment in terms of IQ and ISO, or would it be negligible with
the right glass attached? I will be buying L primes regardless of
the body I decide on. The 40D is appealing for the long term for
candid/action shots of my kids as they grow up, get into sports, etc.

So I guess i may stop by the Ritz in DC today to see if they have a
40D that I can play with. I think my brain is going to explode from
this!

Slow shutter lag!!! Are you serious? The shutter lag is quoted as 0.075 seconds on the 5D - it is beaten by the 40D - by a scorching 0.016 of a second - I doubt you woule even notice it ( http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/shutter-lag.html ). Card write times ae a non-isuee - unless you shoot RAW and continuous for a period. Adn 3fps should be fine for what you say you want the camera for - how fast does an under-3 year old travel? I love the 5D - but I'm sure whichever camera you chose you wouldn't be disapointed. Note one thing though - Full frame sensors do require better glass, so the 40D might be your cheaper option for a number of reasons.

 

[salosd]

even re-read Ken Rockwell's reviews

Do you really considered this person as serious that you re-read his website? To me it is start and same second end point of your post. Sorry.

--

 

[unixcat]

I think the XTi and the 40D uses the same 10MP sensor (slightly
smaller than the 30D), just that the 40D saves the image in 14-bit
RAW.

The 40D has a lot more to it than that to it. The 40D is in a totally separate class.

 

[unixcat]

Do you really considered this person as serious that you re-read his
website? To me it is start and same second end point of your post.
Sorry.

Hmm... No I know he's not entirely serious all the time, but he knows a hell of a lot more than I do. Plus, even an anecdotal review can be insightful.

BTW, what's wrong with Rockwell? Is there something I don't know?

shrugs

 

[unixcat]

Slow shutter lag!!! Are you serious? The shutter lag is quoted as
0.075 seconds on the 5D - it is beaten by the 40D - by a scorching
0.016 of a second - I doubt you woule even notice it
( http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/shutter-lag.html ). Card write
times ae a non-isuee - unless you shoot RAW and continuous for a
period. Adn 3fps should be fine for what you say you want the camera
for - how fast does an under-3 year old travel? I love the 5D - but
I'm sure whichever camera you chose you wouldn't be disapointed. Note
one thing though - Full frame sensors do require better glass, so the
40D might be your cheaper option for a number of reasons.

Yes I know it seems minute, but I'm telling the truth, it's noticeable. I had to be deliberate about pressing the shutter. Plus did I mention that the frame rate was slow too ;-). Focusing also seemed a bit slow too, although consistent and on point (even in low light.)

A lot of times I had to try to anticipate the shot and time my release. Not fun with kids, I don't want to have to think about those things.

The 5D is an awesome camera, but for my application, the 40D is looking more compelling...

Thanks to everyone for sharing you opinions so far, BTW.

 

[Anil Koshy]

I think the XTi and the 40D uses the same 10MP sensor (slightly
smaller than the 30D), just that the 40D saves the image in 14-bit
RAW.

The 40D has a lot more to it than that to it. The 40D is in a
totally separate class.

I don't dispute this at all. Tactile feel, durability, AF (30D had identical AF to the XTi), buttons etc are definitely a cut above the XTi, in the 40D, and larger hands will definitely find the 40D/30D, ergonomically more sound.

BUT

the upcoming update to the 5D will definitely incorporate everything the 40D has and more, in addition to updates to the FF sensor that will out-class the performance from the 40D, specifically when it comes to high ISO performance and overall excellence from the pictures.

If you don't mind buying the 40D for its available features now, then definitely go for it. But if image quality is your prime consideration (Pro-build will not fetch you better pictures than the XTi) and you don't want to spend the additional money for the 40D while waiting for the 5D replacement to arrive in a few short months, then an XTi will allow you to keep shooting for a minimal outlay, till you decide to pick up the 5D replacement or the 40D, as the case may be.

I suggested the XTi only as a stop-gap measure, to save you some money, while producing nearly-identical pictures to the 40D, but be assured that the 40D is definitely a "totally separate class" and if you don't mind spending the additional money, go for it....your pictures will still be identical to the ones emanating from the XTi (I doubt 14-bit is much different from 12-bit). Later on, when the 5D replacement arrives, you can then decide on picking that up or decide against picking it up.

If you can swing it, I would suggest you skip the 40D and go with the 1D MKIII....it is a way higher class of product and its build and features will out-class and outlast the 40D, any time, night or day, disregarding Canon's initial hiccups with the AF. Or go the whole hog and get a IDS MKIII )

Or, if you don't have a large investment in top-end Canon glass/equipment, the Full-frame Nikon D3 is something I would seriously consider. In sporting events, pros testing the product for Nikon, are known to have shot with ISO 6400 with pleasing results, while its ISO 3200 is said to be comparable to its predecessor's ISO 400.

--
--- Anil ----
Gear: A couple of cameras & tripods/flash etc.

 

[unixcat]

But if image quality is your prime
consideration (Pro-build will not fetch you better pictures than the
XTi) and you don't want to spend the additional money for the 40D
while waiting for the 5D replacement to arrive in a few short months,
then an XTi will allow you to keep shooting for a minimal outlay,
till you decide to pick up the 5D replacement or the 40D, as the case
may be.

I suggested the XTi only as a stop-gap measure, to save you some
money, while producing nearly-identical pictures to the 40D, but be
assured that the 40D is definitely a "totally separate class" and if
you don't mind spending the additional money, go for it....your
pictures will still be identical to the ones emanating from the XTi
(I doubt 14-bit is much different from 12-bit). Later on, when the
5D replacement arrives, you can then decide on picking that up or
decide against picking it up.

Intriguing! I'm almost tempted to consider this, but isn't the 40D capable of better ISO performance? Also I think ergonomics are much better on the 40D. I probably wont buy a 5D MII until it's been out for a year so I need something to last a while and that I will enjoy using.

Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[salosd]

BTW, what's wrong with Rockwell? Is there something I don't know?

His reviews are ridiculous; this is pro section of Canon forum and people here thousand times more knowledgeable than Rockwell. By the time your expertise will grow you will understand my words.

--

 

[Anil Koshy]

Intriguing! I'm almost tempted to consider this, but isn't the 40D
capable of better ISO performance? Also I think ergonomics are much
better on the 40D. I probably wont buy a 5D MII until it's been out
for a year so I need something to last a while and that I will enjoy
using.

I seriously doubt there is any better ISO performance from the 40D over the XTi, since the sensor is well nigh identical and should be gathering an identical amount of light, as long as the lens and aperture used is the same on both bodies....obviously the camera JPEG might be different between the two but a RAW processed product from either camera should be identical (discounting the 14-bit vs 12-bit criteria for now). Ergonomics are definitely in favor of the 40D, especially if you have larger hands. The XTi is designed to a certain pricepoint and thus will have certain shortcomings from a handling and build standpoint, but image creation is certainly not one of those.

I think based on everything you have mentioned till now, the 40D may be what you are looking for and will keep you happy for a long time. Just stick to the good lenses when buying/shooting.

Let us know what you finally decide on. Bottomline, you can't go wrong, as long as you stick to any of these models from the top 2-3 companies.

--
--- Anil ----
Gear: A couple of cameras & tripods/flash etc.

 

[unixcat]

Intriguing! I'm almost tempted to consider this, but isn't the 40D
capable of better ISO performance? Also I think ergonomics are much
better on the 40D. I probably wont buy a 5D MII until it's been out
for a year so I need something to last a while and that I will enjoy
using.

I seriously doubt there is any better ISO performance from the 40D
over the XTi, since the sensor is well nigh identical and should be
gathering an identical amount of light, as long as the lens and
aperture used is the same on both bodies....obviously the camera JPEG
might be different between the two but a RAW processed product from
either camera should be identical (discounting the 14-bit vs 12-bit
criteria for now). Ergonomics are definitely in favor of the 40D,
especially if you have larger hands. The XTi is designed to a
certain pricepoint and thus will have certain shortcomings from a
handling and build standpoint, but image creation is certainly not
one of those.

I think based on everything you have mentioned till now, the 40D may
be what you are looking for and will keep you happy for a long time.
Just stick to the good lenses when buying/shooting.

Let us know what you finally decide on. Bottomline, you can't go
wrong, as long as you stick to any of these models from the top 2-3
companies.

Yep, you make some very good points. For me, the xtra $600 for the 40D is still a good value even if IQ is exactly the same on both. Is a 5D worth $800+ more? I'm sure it is, but I am not convinced I will get an ROI in terms of my usage. Coming from a 300D, I think I'm better off with a 40D for a year, an then picking up a 5DMII (using the 40D as a backup.) By then I will have more matured skills with the primes on the 40D.

I'll post what I get, and upload some images when I get my gear.

Thanks again!

 

[ed rader]

i've used the 5d for almost a year and i notice the lag also. i think maybe the muted shutter noise exaggerates the lag but the 5d definitely is not as responsive as the 20d or 30d.

ed rader

--



'One often has mixed feelings about relatives, but few people could identify serious problems in their relationships with dogs.'

-- Anonymous

 

[Ominous]

My 24-105 is wide.
My 35L is wide.
My 85 L is not too long.
The 135 L is not too long
My 200 L is still usable indoors.
My 16-35 F2.8 II has no equivalent on a crop camera.

The high ISO noise is better, and overall the images the 5D produce more "pop"

I've used a 40D, 400D, 30D, 20D, Rebel, Rebel XTi, 5D, and so on...and the 5D is still the top of the list for image quality.

When I "replace" my 5D, it will be either a 5D II, or a 1DS model so I can finally get back the 45 point AF system I lost when moving to digital. I will not sell my 5D though, as it will be backup to my new camera. Even though it is "old technology" the new tech crop cameras haven't been able to make a camera that would replace what I get with the 5D.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ewhalen

 

[salosd]

I've used a 40D, 400D, 30D, 20D, Rebel, Rebel XTi, 5D, and so on...and the 5D is still the top of the list for image quality.

Same with me, from your list I own: 20D, XTi, 40D, 5D. 5D - best for sure.

--

 

[unixcat]

Well, I ordered the 5D 24-105 kit! Only $2700 for both! I may just keep this lens and add some fast primes over time.

Thanks to everyone here for their advise and comments. The main factors affecting my decision was that I wanted a camera that I will be cool with keeping for a few years, and at the end of the day IQ and low light performance is more important than fps to me. After all 3fps is not that bad. Not to mention that FF sensor was just too irresistible.

I'll post some pics next week.

-- Ciao!

 

[Kitacanon]

As I don't own either the 40 or 5D I refrained from posting though I am going through the same decision making process...I will go the same way as you for this reason...if I don't I'll never really know what I'm missing...if I get a used 5D when 5D MKII comes out it won't be that much more than the 40 and if I regret it...well...it won't cost me too much to sell it to someone else when I get the 40...
good luck and enjoy...

 

[vinkeatkel]

in addition to many, many lenses.

All things equal, the final image quality can be quite similar from any of the Canon digital SLR's made through the years.

Today, I would make a new camera purchase based on the following, first and foremost:

1- do you really need it? looking back, I did not need the 30d, and even though it's a different experience, I probably didn't need the 5D, either. My recommendation, wear a camera out. Use it, abuse it, maybe even replace the shutter. Like I said, IQ is not that much better over the years. Some may say it's not even as good.

2- full frame or crop (more important to some)?

3- handling (is it comfortable and responsive enough for your needs ?)

Well, I ordered the 5D 24-105 kit! Only $2700 for both! I may just
keep this lens and add some fast primes over time.

Thanks to everyone here for their advise and comments. The main
factors affecting my decision was that I wanted a camera that I will
be cool with keeping for a few years, and at the end of the day IQ
and low light performance is more important than fps to me. After
all 3fps is not that bad. Not to mention that FF sensor was just too
irresistible.

I'll post some pics next week.

-- Ciao!

 

[Anil Koshy]

Excellent choice. I personally would have gone that way too, given a choice between the 40D vs 5D. Now post some pictures !

Also, where did you buy the combo for $2700 ? The prices I have seen around is in the $2999 range for that combo.

Well, I ordered the 5D 24-105 kit! Only $2700 for both! I may just
keep this lens and add some fast primes over time.

Thanks to everyone here for their advise and comments. The main
factors affecting my decision was that I wanted a camera that I will
be cool with keeping for a few years, and at the end of the day IQ
and low light performance is more important than fps to me. After
all 3fps is not that bad. Not to mention that FF sensor was just too
irresistible.

I'll post some pics next week.

-- Ciao!

--
--- Anil ----
Gear: A couple of cameras & tripods/flash etc.

 

[Leos]

i've used the 5d for almost a year and i notice the lag also. i
think maybe the muted shutter noise exaggerates the lag but the 5d
definitely is not as responsive as the 20d or 30d.

Yup, I had the exact same experience during my ~ 1,5 years with the 5D. I have not owned the xxD series, but compared to 1 series, the lag is painfully obvious (could be just the sound though ... but it was a constant annoyance). Now dont get me started about the mirror blackout time lol...