Wireless flash triggers?

[srr2]

Recently added three monolights to my collection of hardware, and got very irritated with all the additional wires very quickly. I considered using the photocell triggers, but can't always rely on them where I would use the lights. So the guy at the photo store sold me a set of Smith-Victor RTK-4 RF triggers. What a fiasco. Horrible product. Fails to trigger when you want it to; frequently triggers when you DON'T want it to. I went through all the permutations of channels, and even turned off every other RF source in the area (at least those over which I had control), and it still didn't work worth crap. I'm not kidding. On one channel setting, I could get one of the lights to fire by simply walking in its vicinity, three or four feet away from it. Another light would fire randomly, all by itself. In normal use (which I never actually achieved), they would fire maybe 10% to 60% of the times they were commanded to. Fiasco is the only word for it. Needless to say, this pile of scrap is going back for a refund ASAP.

Okay. So now I'm hoping for some advice on what I should buy. The lights are very easy, forgiving triggers. The open-circuit voltage is 4.70VDC and the trigger "low" current is 80uA. That should be fire-able by ANYTHING. The camera is a D300S which has all manner of flash trigger connectivity. I looked at the B&H catalog and the variety is overwhelming. I don't have a huge budget, but would like something that's going to work reliably.

Any suggestions, especially practical experience, would be much appreciated.

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A bit more detail on the S-V for anyone interested: It appears (albeit an educated guess) that these use the 2.4GHz band. Thus the widely reported trouble with them -- there are many reports of similar misbehavior in B&H's reviews. Had I seen the reviews, I'd never have bought them. Anyway, it appears that the command process is primitive, most likely simply sensing the presence/absence of a carrier in the 2.4GHz band. If they used some kind of coding, the apparent interference problem should have been greatly reduced, and most likely eliminated. But the simple ON-OFF design they're apparently using is just asking for trouble. This explains how the device can be triggered simply by interrupting/modifying a static 2.4GHz RF field by the mere act of walking in the vicinity of the receiver.

In my case, even though I turned off the two 2.4GHz routers I use, and also turned off the one 5GHz router, and also turned off the Bluetooth-like 2.4GHz wireless mouse-KB sets within 30 feet, the receivers were STILL falsely triggered and ignored legitimate triggering signals. I can imagine two likely explanations for this: 1) There's a 2.4GHz source outside my premises that's bombing the area where I'm using these, or 2) the receivers have truly lousy out-of-band rejection of stray RF. Take your pick -- I'm not sure that it even matters. The bottom line is that these things simply DO NOT WORK FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE.

 

[GMack]

The S-V in Adorama's review section aren't stellar. You may have to go to the PocketWizards or the Phottix Odin if you want more reliability.

I had the PW and lost them on location (Keep them in a bright colored bag!) so I decided to try the Odin i-TTL setup and it is very nice and yet to misfire for me. I have had the PW miss a few times and that will cause you all sorts of issues when it happens. I don't know if there is a USA distributor for the Phottix Odins or not. Mine came from Hong Kong (online) in less than 3 days which was pretty impressive for itself as the NY stores often take 5-8 days by ground to me.

Fwiw, I have some RC helicopter that used the 2.4GHz band as well. I was setting it up and practicing to lift a video cam to buzz possible locations behind fences to see if it was a possible location, but the thing got some interference and took off down the road without me controlling it. Soon the rotors stopped and it fell with a big crash and bang into a neighborhood and all the dogs began barking. I followed the barking dogs to the house it might be at and found it bounced off their patio and onto the concrete pool deck. So much for interference and a smashed up helicopter.

Mack

 

[Alberto Tanikawa]

I swear by Pocket Wizard Plus III, but I realize they are not the most affordable kit out there. They are however the most dependable I've worked with, or witnessed being worked with - several friends of mine use a diverse set of transmitters/receivers from different companies. Some had similar issues as you mentioned with your SV, others just didn't have enough power in an environment full of people to overcome interference from walking bodies of water. Yet others were so cheaply made that the plastic broke with little stress applied to it.

 

[Alberto Tanikawa]

Yeah, the 2.4Ghz spectrum is so overcrowded that it's nearly impossible to rely on it for much. I use a carrier class 2.4Ghz wifi radio to cut through/overpower ALL my other devices' interference, plus ALL my neighbors' access points. If my phone could use 5Ghz I wouldn't have such an issue. Same goes for radio triggers and working on locations with strong interference from other devices that use the same frequency: dj wireless equipment, wireless lighting controls, local wifi, tons of smartphones all vying for a piece of the spectrum. Throw in a baby monitor that uses up ALL wifi frequencies, and you got an environment where 2.4Ghz radio triggers won't work, or work very poorly.

 

[srr2]

Thank you all for the helpful replies. It looks like I failed to include enough detail about my expected usage, based on what I see with Pocket Wizard and Phottix/Odin. From what I can tell about both of these (please correct me if I have it wrong) they are fairly complex systems, in that they interoperate with the camera's metering to automate the flash power settings. I get why this is important for a professional -- once you know what works for your task, the work of setting flash power and exposure is handled automatically by the camera so you get good reliable results, fast. From what I understand, this is one of the important features that justifies the high price of, for example, the Nikon Speedlights. There's a lot more to them than a simple brain-dead flash and the wireless controllers have to include two-way communications to implement it all. Thus their relatively high price.

That's not where I am. I'm not that professional or that smart. My monolights are dumb in that the flash output isn't "quenchable". The only power setting on them is a knob.


I'm planning to use the monolights in a much more casual setting. In nearly all cases, I have time to play around with settings to get what I'm after, and expect to use the camera and flashes in (mostly) manual mode. So to put a fine point on it, I'm looking for nothing more than a way to send a "dumb" trigger to the monolight. The Smith-Victor thing does just that (well, when it, in theory, works, which is never).

So conceptually, I'm looking for a wireless wire, it seems.

 

[Alberto Tanikawa]

Both Pocket Wizard and Phottix offer products that offer straight wireless triggering AND TTL wireless triggering. The Plus III model I mentioned has no TTL capabilities, so you set the power of your remotes manually. I believe both also use licensed frequencies that are far less crowded - the Plus III uses 340-354Mhz in the USA, perhaps slightly different in Europe and elsewhere.

 

[Sailor Blue]

Thailand isn't the RF rich environment of much of the US but I can detect about 15 other Wi-Fi routers in my apartment building and I have never had a single problem with my budget priced Yongnuo RF-602s (bought a couple of months before the RF-603s came out).

I also have a microwave oven near where I shoot. Out of curiosity I just tried my Yongnuo RF-602 with my Di866 hot-shoe flash 5' from the oven while heating a cup of water for tea. I didn't have a single problem.

If all you want is manual power control over your lights I suggest that you try a set of Yongnuo RF-603s. If you still have interference problems then return them for a refund. Even if you don't return them a set with a remote camera trigger cable (Canon or Nikon) is only about $30-$35.

I love being able to trigger the camera remotely when shooting portraits. Once I get the lights and tripod set up I can just look at the subject eye to eye while talking and posing them. Without the camera coming between me and my subject it is much easier to get good expressions.

 

[cantman]

I recently did a photo shoot of a dance studio with rented Profoto monolights and Cactus V5 radio triggers (which I own). The Cactus V5 radio triggers worked each and every time without fail. I recommend them from my experience.

 

[bestairet]

Did you swap out fresh batteries in the transmitter and receivers? Even if the units hadn't been used before they could use a battery change otherwise they can be flakey.

I use cheap RPS Studio radio slaves which aren't much different than what I see the Smith Victors look like. I use mine extensively without fail, and when they do act up, battery change fixes it.

 

[srr2]

Thanks once again for all the replies. For the moment, I have scrapped the idea of RF triggers in favor of using the built-in photocell triggers and suitably slow shutter speeds and synchronization. I had two projects that were up against time deadlines, so "workable" was preferable to "ideal".

Regarding the Smith-Victor (AKA "Photogenic") equipment, here's what I found: it operates at approximately 435MHz in what appears to be carrier on/off mode. Turns out that this is right next to some FAA applications in the spectrum, and wouldn't you know, there's an FAA tower less than a mile from my home and in direct line-of-sight. That would explain everything, including the many reports of behavior similar to that which I experienced since FAA NAV radios are commonplace and can be found at unexpected locations. BTW, it had fresh batteries right at the outset.

Thanks for the suggestions of alternative products. When things settle down after the holidays I'll look into them. I was amused at one of the suppliers -- I forget which at the moment -- making the case for using "the reliable 2.4GHz band" and thinking "out of fire into frying pan". We'll see.

 

[srr2]

Thanks once again for the time you all took to reply. It's much appreciated.

I looked at every product recommended in this thread and finally took the plunge with the Cactus 5. It appeared to be the closest match to my needs (and actually proved to be even more versatile than I originally anticipated) and was clearly the most cost-effective.

Bought three dual sets from Midwest Photo Exchange. So far, I'm very pleased with their service.

Anyway, they finally arrived after many holiday-related slowdowns in transit. Unpacked, added batteries (I really like the spring-loaded battery trays) and hooked them up. 100% success! No fiddling, tuning, or channel selection..... nothing. Just set the camera to TX and the lights to RX and presto.... perfect. And to top it off, they work without a hitch in the presence of two high-power 2.4GHz and one 5GHz WAPs. When you're not using them, the RX/TX switch offers a center-off position so the batteries aren't drained while you're not using them.


They have a hot-shoe trigger built in so they can also fire my (35 year old) Sunpak Auto 221S in addition to providing a tripod mount for it which it lacked. I'm impressed with this level of compatibility. The Sunpak outputs a Voc of 37VDC with a "low" current of 120uA. This is within the 300Voc rating Cactus claims, and it worked immediately the first time I tried it.


There are two downsides:

1) Single-source availability. MPEX is it unless you want to order from Gadget Infinity in Hong Kong and pay very high shipping rates. As it turns out, if you go with MPEX's slightly higher price and their lower shipping cost, it's essentially a wash compared to GI's price plus shipping. Since MPEX offers a 1-year warranty and exchange within the US, this is basically a no-brainer with respect to these two sources. There are no other reputable/viable sources that I found.

2) (This one kind of ticks me off) They don't ship enough cables to use both units in a dual kit in "receive" mode. They *assume* that someone buying a dual kit is using it 1 TX and 1 RX. I expect situations where I'll use it 1 TX and 4 RX, so I'm at least one cable short. In fairness, MPEX has a clear picture of what's in the box, and an unambiguous written list, so I'm partially at fault for not studying these items closely enough, but then I didn't expect to have to do that since the stated purpose of these is RX&TX and RX&RX, so there's a bit of blame to go around for the natural assumption that the kit comes with the necessary parts for RX&RX operation.

Bottom line: So far, highly recommended in situations where you don't need the capabilities of a PW or its ilk. High value/$. It works without any fuss. I trust MPEX as a source.