WINXP

[Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.]

Kind of interesting from a legal standpoint. MS has been found quilty of being a monoply .. and is in "punishment phase". Can your power company refuse to give you service unless you abide by their terms? Can the phone company? Both are "public utilities". Does MS fall in the catagory of a company that needs to be regulated as a "utility"? Is there a "compelling state interest" in ensuring computer literacy , or for that matter, internet access? Federal Courts are moving to "on'line" filing of actions; State Courts are moving toward "on-line" case management. That being the case, you have Windows, Linux and Apple as operating systems which allow the computer to function for public functions. Some food for thought.
Karl

 

[Mike Fitzgerald]

A very interesting question, Karl. I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which an OS like Windows had evolved entirely in the public domain to its present world-wide level of use and acceptance -- like languages and mathematics. Had that been the case I'll bet it would have had very solid legal standing by now. The reality of one corporation's degree of control of this, however, brings me back to other worries about where we're going with pharmacological and bio-research, even to the apparent extent of gene ownership and patentability.

The "public utility" issue hits a nerve with a lot of us (not enough, unfortunately), down under. Our state and federal governments have been selling everything off for all they can get over the last few years, and water supply is the only thing left that's fully publicly owned. We're vaguely aware, here, of the summer power hassles in California; but how smoothly have US private telephone and rail systems really worked over the decades? Is corporate/shareholder greed starting to force visible compromises in those areas of late?

The uncomfortable telephone run-in I had with Microsoft Australia, btw, was actually on the second-last occasion. Last time, forewarned, I got in first -- with both barrels. Worked like a charm...

Mike

Kind of interesting from a legal standpoint. MS has been found
quilty of being a monoply .. and is in "punishment phase". Can
your power company refuse to give you service unless you abide by
their terms? Can the phone company? Both are "public utilities".
Does MS fall in the catagory of a company that needs to be
regulated as a "utility"? Is there a "compelling state interest"
in ensuring computer literacy , or for that matter, internet
access? Federal Courts are moving to "on'line" filing of actions;
State Courts are moving toward "on-line" case management. That
being the case, you have Windows, Linux and Apple as operating
systems which allow the computer to function for public functions.
Some food for thought.
Karl

 

[Bill Dewey]

Mike, I believe that is called a "preemptive strike", mate .

Look to the evolution of Unix for something that is at least close to your Public Domain question below. And look at the number of very free and open versions that you can purchase today, such as Free BSD and the many Linux variants. It is not the OS that is the real issue hear, it is the plethora (what a word) of desktop applications that are required for daily use. This is where MS REALLY has it locked up. Sure, Star Office is out there, and Sun is keeping it free even now, but what else is there?

Karl, how does this fit in? Being here in the Seattle area we often see a bit of bias toward Microsoft, not very surprising, eh? Some claim that the "general public" will come to it's senses and move to alternatives, but I think that the "general public" will just go with the flow, the flow being Microsoft, for day-to-day work. Especially as manufacturers like Dell and Gateway supply the OS on new systems.

The "public utility" issue hits a nerve with a lot of us (not
enough, unfortunately), down under. Our state and federal
governments have been selling everything off for all they can get
over the last few years, and water supply is the only thing left
that's fully publicly owned. We're vaguely aware, here, of the
summer power hassles in California; but how smoothly have US
private telephone and rail systems really worked over the decades?
Is corporate/shareholder greed starting to force visible
compromises in those areas of late?

The uncomfortable telephone run-in I had with Microsoft Australia,
btw, was actually on the second-last occasion. Last time,
forewarned, I got in first -- with both barrels. Worked like a
charm...

Mike

Kind of interesting from a legal standpoint. MS has been found
quilty of being a monoply .. and is in "punishment phase". Can
your power company refuse to give you service unless you abide by
their terms? Can the phone company? Both are "public utilities".
Does MS fall in the catagory of a company that needs to be
regulated as a "utility"? Is there a "compelling state interest"
in ensuring computer literacy , or for that matter, internet
access? Federal Courts are moving to "on'line" filing of actions;
State Courts are moving toward "on-line" case management. That
being the case, you have Windows, Linux and Apple as operating
systems which allow the computer to function for public functions.
Some food for thought.
Karl

 

[clausiam]

move to alternatives, but I think that the "general public" will
just go with the flow, the flow being Microsoft, for day-to-day
work.

That's how I see it as well, as much as I dislike the thought. Even with all the issues with XP there are no real alternatives for the average user. And with "Passport" and .NET Alerts etc on the rise it is not "just" the OS that is the issue any more. I just don't see how it can be stopped. I mean I hate what I see but at the same time I am getting ready to buy a new PC which will also have MS products installed on it. NOT XP for sure but Win2K Pro.

Claus

 

[Dennis Hays]

And to add additional Canon Fodder (spelling changed to remain OT), various sources (Ed Foster Gripe Line, Slashdot, et al) have reported that MS placed an addendum to their EULA for FrontPage 2002 inside retail copies of the product that said, in part:

"'You may not use the Software in connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services ..."

Think if that were added to Windows OS products--then most of this thread would be in violation ;-).

However, the real problem, is MS even adding something like that to a EULA. Once you feel the need to set up some type of censorship to limit free speech (especially about a product), then... "methinks he doth protest too much."

There's something rotten in Redmond.

Dennis Hays

I also heard that if you instal Windows Xp I think over 5 times
after the 5th you have to call Mircosoft for another code or
somehting like that.

Actually Michael ... you have to get an activation code EACH time
you install it ... or make a change in your system configuration ..
or video card, etc. I will not buy it.
Karl

 

[Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.]

Karl, how does this fit in? Being here in the Seattle area we
often see a bit of bias toward Microsoft, not very surprising, eh?
Some claim that the "general public" will come to it's senses and
move to alternatives, but I think that the "general public" will
just go with the flow, the flow being Microsoft, for day-to-day
work. Especially as manufacturers like Dell and Gateway supply the
OS on new systems.

Most folks lead lives of quiet desperation, ( I can relate since I have taxes and an ex wife to take care of ... sure keeps me motivated). For most folks, "Privacy" issues can only be reached after food, shelter and nookie issues are resloved, (see Maslows Hiarchy). You are right, most people will go with the flow, up to a point. I think this is the point. MS through its' prior predatory business practices controls the physical aspects of internet access ... for most people .. no Windows .. no internet access. Times being what they are .. I can easily see our Fed Folks declaring internet access, (and inherent thereto .. Windows .. as a necessary tool to do it) .. a "National Interest" and subject to regulation "for the public welfare". MS is screwing the pooch by it's back door attempt to control that access. I sold my MS stock when I found out about XP's copy protection: it's an absolute no win for MS. Course, nothing they do, could make them hated more by the masses
Regards
Karl

 

[Mike Fitzgerald]

MS ... Course, nothing they do, could make them hated more by the
masses

Won't stop 'em trying. I just found this article -- and it worries me considerably -- about where some people are trying to steer the "ownership" versus "license" statutory perspective on software. Although the MS interest in this is obvious (witness the not-so-optional-for-some "options" about how one takes one's XP medicine), I wonder just who's been lobbying for this, and how hard. It's not an in-depth coverage of the issue, but it raises some ugly questions about what's been quietly brewing in Big Brother's cellar, and who his corporate guests are.

http://www.manufacturing.net/index.asp?layout=articleportal&articleid=CA159951

Mike

 

[AlAboos]

After all old discussions we've been through (and I was absolutely disagree with your opinions) I'm definitely agree on what you're saying now. I have never bought a version of Windows or Microsoft products after Windows 3.1 and I'm not planning to buy XP. Specially after I've read an article about XP and felt what's gonna happen to the future of software companies and developers. For instance said that you'll need to burn your CD's using Windows XP CD burning program if you want them to be readable in XP!!! So we should probably say bye to Adaptec, Roxio or other folks who use to be leaders in CD burning industry (Computer Shopper, Last Issue). Anyhow if you guys are interested in knowing where you can find all information to fight Microsoft's high speed monopoly or any other software companies, check out http://www.bugs2k.com or http://www.thecrack.net:8080 . You can also find usefull stuff using IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channel #cracks.

Regards,
Al

Greets. XP is already hacked, (copy protection removed, get your
copy off the net if you are inclined to.) I have a shelf full of
Windows copies I've purshased over the years ... I will not
purchase a copy of XP. I will not support MS's anti pirating
scheme. Downloaded a "hacked" copy: was curious whether it is
worth an upgrade from 2K. It is not. W2K does everything XP does
and doesn't have the dumb ss copy protection. Almost a third of my
hardware and software will not work with XP. It does have a
compatability wizard that will tell you what you need to upgrade ..
software and hardware, (it determined my modem will not work and I
needed to purchase one that did.) Oh well.
Karl
--
[email protected] (Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.)

 

[Bill Dewey]

Very interesting article, Mike, thanks for the pointer. I also think that it is important to note the difference between true business oriented software, such as what the company I work for sells, and consumer oriented products. Our normal sale is in the 6 to 7 figure range, so the incentive is there for both parties to protect themselves. Interestingly enough, we don't have any licensing per se, just the contract. Then look at the model of Adobe. They have very strict licensing and they will actively prosecute. Yet, they are not at all intrusive about it, protection for both parties. One of the things that MS wants to stop is the illegal resale of its software, regardless of whether the original copy was purchased or not.

I don't disagree with the goal of any company needing a fair return for product, and I think that one of the issues of "sale" vs. "lease" revolves around the resale issue. However, the MS licensing method with XP, to put it very technical terms, just plain sucks. This is even worse than the "way back days" of dongles that hung off your parellel port.

MS ... Course, nothing they do, could make them hated more by the
masses

Won't stop 'em trying. I just found this article -- and it worries
me considerably -- about where some people are trying to steer the
"ownership" versus "license" statutory perspective on software.
Although the MS interest in this is obvious (witness the
not-so-optional-for-some "options" about how one takes one's XP
medicine), I wonder just who's been lobbying for this, and how
hard. It's not an in-depth coverage of the issue, but it raises
some ugly questions about what's been quietly brewing in Big
Brother's cellar, and who his corporate guests are.

http://www.manufacturing.net/index.asp?layout=articleportal&articleid=CA159951

Mike

 

[Bill Dewey]

Philosophically I agree with you, but technically this just ain't going to happen. Take a close look at the issues between Kodak and MS, and what happened when Kodak threatened court action. MS backed off. They will push just as hard as they can, and as a business in a free enterprise system that is to be expected, but I think you will find that most of these fears are not going to come true. There is just too much scrutiny of MS business practices now, which is a good thing. Just happening to work a few miles from MS headquarters, and working for a company that has close ties to MS and the technology, we get pretty good access to a lot of this stuff before it hits the general public. This is, by no means, an effort to say that I a) like what MS is or does b) condone the way they do business or c) particularly like their products, but we must keep things in perspective and not jump off cliffs that aren't there. As Mike Fitzgerald points out, be aware, be firm when dealing with them and don't let them BS you. And, by all means, if you think you detect any malfeasance on their part contact your states Attorney General. What a way for them, the AG's, to make a name for themselves, whacking MS. If you don't think this can happen, our own AG here in Washington is "big news" because of the settlement she spearheaded against the Tobacco industry, and won.

Regards,
Al

Greets. XP is already hacked, (copy protection removed, get your
copy off the net if you are inclined to.) I have a shelf full of
Windows copies I've purshased over the years ... I will not
purchase a copy of XP. I will not support MS's anti pirating
scheme. Downloaded a "hacked" copy: was curious whether it is
worth an upgrade from 2K. It is not. W2K does everything XP does
and doesn't have the dumb ss copy protection. Almost a third of my
hardware and software will not work with XP. It does have a
compatability wizard that will tell you what you need to upgrade ..
software and hardware, (it determined my modem will not work and I
needed to purchase one that did.) Oh well.
Karl
--
[email protected] (Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.)

 

[Mike Fitzgerald]

Yes, interesting to find out what's going on behind the scenes. I thought the lease concept was mainly a MS grasp at further control, and I had no idea there was any kind of general "movement" afoot in this direction.

MS appears to be starting a war of attrition with the lease idea, and the main thrust of it (if the sketchy info I've read is on the right track) would appear to be reduced fincancial incentives, in future, for large site licence packs if they're purchased rather than leased. Note "reduced", as I understand it, meaning an actual cost penalty (relative to the current scale of things) that may creep in if leasing is eschewed in favour of the traditional arrangement. As I said, I don't have any solid references to this, but consider the XP pricing for MS Office (Oz UPGRADE prices):

Office 2000 Pro -- Access, Excel, Word, P'Point, Publisher, Outlook: $558
Office XP Pro -- Same name, but Publisher is now missing: $649
Office 2000 Premium -- as 2000 Pro, plus FrontPage etc.: $665
Office XP Pro Special Edition -- broadly similar to 2000 Premium: $889
Publisher 2002 -- if you choose to buy it as an extra: $269
Office XP Pro ESL (End User Subscription Licence): $325 P/A

Looking at the purchase outcome first, then anyone with the typical full business kit (2000 Pro), who uses Publisher as well, is up for $360 more than it cost for the last upgrade in year 2000. Clearly they'd be crazy to not go for the Pro SE version, for an increase of only $240. Any grizzles will be met by MS smoothtalking heads, of course, with the rejoinder "we've given you the choice". The position of Publisher (I loathe the thing, btw) is an interesting one. It's been quite a reasonable package for clubs, community houses and home users, and some small businesses, so why take it away from them? Is MS really starting to kid itself that this is serious professional DTP software!??

Returning to the leasing question, we're looking at potentially $650 for 2 years' blissful cohabitation with Office XP Pro. I say potentially, because Melbourne's busiest software house "believes" there will be savings to be had on subscription renewal after the first year, but has had no official word at all from MS Australia about this. If MS PR-speak has encouraged this belief, it would certainly have done so in the knowledge that it would be conveyed to customers with solicitous intent.

Naturally, customers are going for the $325 1st year lease deal, gambling on it not getting worse (and possibly believing the second year might be lighter), and getting some immediate tax benefit out of it being an operating expense rather than an asset. MS seems to have priced this very cleverly -- as high as it can manage without turning everyone away, and seducing a healthy number of people away from the traditional "ownership" concept. And once on board ... ;-)

Clearly, they're actively conditioning users to a software upgrade cycle of 2 years or less. Too bad about the host of small businesses with down-to-earth word pro, spreadsheet and bookkeeping needs that are still being fully accommodated by 10-year-old apps.

It's impossible to guess exactly what MS's game plan is. But one thing's for sure: it's not being choreographed by idiots.

Re your observation about MS and resale, it has always maintained that it has no problem with this provided sellers delete the current installations from their hard drives and also pass on any qualifying product. Do you have reason to suspect that MS is now moving towards an absolute single-use throwaway product?

Mike

.............. One of the things that MS wants to stop is the
illegal resale of its software, regardless of whether the original
copy was purchased or not.

I don't disagree with the goal of any company needing a fair return
for product, and I think that one of the issues of "sale" vs.
"lease" revolves around the resale issue ........

 

[Ken Davis58413]

So, are you saying you haven't ever used any windows operating system after Windows 3.1 or are you saying you are using a later version, it's just an illegal copy?

Regards,
Al

Greets. XP is already hacked, (copy protection removed, get your
copy off the net if you are inclined to.) I have a shelf full of
Windows copies I've purshased over the years ... I will not
purchase a copy of XP. I will not support MS's anti pirating
scheme. Downloaded a "hacked" copy: was curious whether it is
worth an upgrade from 2K. It is not. W2K does everything XP does
and doesn't have the dumb ss copy protection. Almost a third of my
hardware and software will not work with XP. It does have a
compatability wizard that will tell you what you need to upgrade ..
software and hardware, (it determined my modem will not work and I
needed to purchase one that did.) Oh well.
Karl
--
[email protected] (Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.)

 

[AlAboos]

You're right but my point is small companies. They're trying to grow and who know how big they will get if no other big companies crunch them like a bug. For guys like Kodak it's easier to fight because they can spend millions of doolars to keep MS in court longer, while MS still has problems with the government. MS is the symbol of smart and world leading company but there are millions of fresh opinions around and they can't even think about fighting them back and they're scared about their future. The government can't do anything too cause they're even too big for them too . I'm also agree that it's better for consumers like you and I, it's gonna give us all we need in one or two CD's and with just one installation but it's going to take away our freedom of choice. For millions of users switching to new stuff is not easy like our older and younger members of family who are not getting familiar with new tools quick and easy (like my uncle who does not trust nothing but Windows 3.1 and calls me a punk when he sees I'm upgrading my Windows!!!). What you pointed is also right and I accept that too, but can you imagine buying Windows 2020 for 2000 bucks because all other software companies are long dead and our only choice is Microsoft Windows?

Regards,
Al

Regards,
Al

Greets. XP is already hacked, (copy protection removed, get your
copy off the net if you are inclined to.) I have a shelf full of
Windows copies I've purshased over the years ... I will not
purchase a copy of XP. I will not support MS's anti pirating
scheme. Downloaded a "hacked" copy: was curious whether it is
worth an upgrade from 2K. It is not. W2K does everything XP does
and doesn't have the dumb ss copy protection. Almost a third of my
hardware and software will not work with XP. It does have a
compatability wizard that will tell you what you need to upgrade ..
software and hardware, (it determined my modem will not work and I
needed to purchase one that did.) Oh well.
Karl
--
[email protected] (Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.)

 

[AlAboos]

I'm running Windows 2k Pro now but I've downloaded it from the internet. For codes and keys you can find thousands of them in the internet too if you're interested. Your copy will work perfectly with those codes and most of them are OEM codes but if you need free technical support better buy a retail version or pay Microsoft 199 dollars (redicolous) if you have illegal or OEM copy and have serious problem!!! (they still make money even if you don't buy thrir products. So if you can shoot your troubles yourself you can find Windows FREE.

Regards,
Al

Regards,
Al

Greets. XP is already hacked, (copy protection removed, get your
copy off the net if you are inclined to.) I have a shelf full of
Windows copies I've purshased over the years ... I will not
purchase a copy of XP. I will not support MS's anti pirating
scheme. Downloaded a "hacked" copy: was curious whether it is
worth an upgrade from 2K. It is not. W2K does everything XP does
and doesn't have the dumb ss copy protection. Almost a third of my
hardware and software will not work with XP. It does have a
compatability wizard that will tell you what you need to upgrade ..
software and hardware, (it determined my modem will not work and I
needed to purchase one that did.) Oh well.
Karl
--
[email protected] (Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.)

 

[Mike Fitzgerald]

but can you imagine buying Windows 2020 for 2000 bucks because all
other software companies are long dead and our only choice is
Microsoft Windows?

I can, indeed, imagine something like that, although in practice I think it won't go that far because consumers will have bailed out before it's come down to absolutely one player.

However, to turn to a particular hobby-horse of mine, look at QuarkXPress. This is a monopoly that's come about in a slightly different way. Not because every household has it, but because for years it's been linked -- indirectly but mission-critically -- to $multi-million printing systems that nobody's going to put at risk, through possible production down time or incorrect output, in order to just learn and try a new competing product, no matter how good it might look.

Exploiting this captive market, QuarkXPress is priced substantially higher than, say, Photoshop (its virtually equal partner in professional DTP usage) in the US: $869 for QX and $609 for PS -- an upward difference of about 43%. And as well as it being, arguably, a more complex product than QX to begin with, you can bet there's been heaps more R&D expenditure on upgrading Photoshop over the years.

In Australia the difference is astronomical. Quark is priced as hard as our isolated and vulnerable market will stand, and they'll cheerfully admit it. Photoshop is $1499, but Quark is $3395. That's 95% above the US price AFTER applying the current exchange rate.

Every time a new version of PageMaker approached, the journalists used to salivate, wondering whether this would finally be THE long awaited Quark Killer. And they did it again over InDesign but nothing has really come of that either. If we go back to mid 1993 (or thereabouts), QuarkXpress was priced here at $1215. The latest PageMaker edition arrived, for about $100 less. And Quark was so scared by this new "serious competition" that it felt forced to respond by putting its price UP by over $500 virtually overnight.

I doubt that I'll live to see a monopolistic situation enable a company to thumb its nose more blatantly, at its competitors and its user base, than in that instance. And having got the hooks well and truly in, the price has been increasing in very large increments ever since, with no level of commitment to product improvement, meanwhile, that could ever justify it.

If anyone doubts the real dangers of monopolies in the software industry, it ain't this little black duck! :-(

 

[Florestan]

"That's a bunch of poo-poo. If this were so, howcome
Microsoft makes billions of dollars every year--Net, not Gross.

Maybe not as many billions as they say. Take a look at:

http://billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html

and see what you think.

 

[Mike Fitzgerald]

http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,s%253D201%2526a%253D16743,00.asp

 

[Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.]

http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,s%253D201%2526a%253D16743,00.asp

gee ... I know I feel sure MS would never make any of my private or confidential information available or public. I know that this is just a legitimate attempt on MS's part to ensure no one will pirate their software, (hacked copies will never be available on the internet). I really don't have a problem surrendering my privacy rights so I can access the internet on my Windoes Puter. I would never consider sending an e-mail to register.microsoft.com/regsys/custom/wishwizard.asp to tell MS that I will not buy their product because it invades my privacy and of course, that I find their preditory business practices unconscionable, unreasonable and un-American. Nope, not me. Course ... I also believe in the tooth fairy and the check is really in the mail.
Karl