Will You Get Sigma's 20 MP/layer Full-Frame Camera?

[richard stone]

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes price as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes features as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes performance as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Are you detecting a pattern?

If the "new" Sigma has a slightly "better" sensor, and output, does not cost a lot more, and is about the right size, all as compared with current and past versions of the Sigma cameras, it should have many people interested in buying one.

That much seems entirely reasonable and of course rather meaningless.

Sigma is in a bit of an existential struggle, and it can either energetically compete with the best products or die as a camera maker. There is no middle ground.

But I think the idea is that this basic 20MP FF sensor as now proposed would "work" very well for many past and current enthusiasts. Would it make sense to provide at some point a body with an alternative quattro architecture sensor, assuming Sigma can do slightly better with the actual output in SPP? Or go direct to DNG? I think so.

My concern is that Sigma has not been a "pro" camera exactly, nor a good action camera, not particularly versatile, and when combined with the new Sigma lenses it tends to feel rather large and heavy.

Still, in my opinion the Sigma/Foveon output is frequently superb. And the sd cameras themselves seem well made and well designed.

About all we can do at this point is wish them well.

--
My small gallery: http://www.pbase.com/richard44/inbox

 

[saltydogstudios]

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes price as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes features as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes performance as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Are you detecting a pattern?

If the "new" Sigma has a slightly "better" sensor, and output, does not cost a lot more, and is about the right size, all as compared with current and past versions of the Sigma cameras, it should have many people interested in buying one.

That much seems entirely reasonable and of course rather meaningless.

Sigma is in a bit of an existential struggle, and it can either energetically compete with the best products or die as a camera maker. There is no middle ground.

But I think the idea is that this basic 20MP FF sensor as now proposed would "work" very well for many past and current enthusiasts. Would it make sense to provide at some point a body with an alternative quattro architecture sensor, assuming Sigma can do slightly better with the actual output in SPP? Or go direct to DNG? I think so.

My concern is that Sigma has not been a "pro" camera exactly, nor a good action camera, not particularly versatile, and when combined with the new Sigma lenses it tends to feel rather large and heavy.

Still, in my opinion the Sigma/Foveon output is frequently superb. And the sd cameras themselves seem well made and well designed.

About all we can do at this point is wish them well.

Sigma is in an existential struggle?

You mean many of the top rated lenses of the past few years haven't been Sigma lenses?

You mean Sigma hasn't been committed to the Foveon partnership for the past 20+ years?

You mean Sigma - as a camera manufacturer - intends to compete in the Sports arena?

Sorry - but as far as I'm concerned, we've been reading the reviews of two completely different websites... And I'm reasonably sure we've both been reading the reviews from THIS site.

 

[Scottelly]

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes price as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes features as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes performance as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Are you detecting a pattern?

I guess I'm making too many assumptions. For all we know, the full-frame camera won't process as fast as the SD Quattro H can. For all we know it'll cost well over $2,000. Like you say, it's too early to know. I mean at first I figured I wouldn't get it. Then I figured it will probably make image quality indiscernible from the SD Quattro H, as far as detail capture capability, just as the SD1 Merrill makes images that are almost indiscernible from those the SD Quattro can capture, except that the new camera will most-likely capture more detail in clouds and a few other things, and it's likely to produce better high-ISO results (i.e. at ISO 800). I assume that the new camera will have a better viewfinder and be more usable. I guess both of those assumptions could turn out to be bad assumptions. I shouldn't assume so much.

What we DO know though, is that it's going to be a camera with a short flange distance, and that there is going to be an adapter to put Canon-mount lenses on it. That means we'll be able to use a lot of different lenses on it, and my recent experience with m42 lenses on my SD Quattro H makes me think that's a nice advantage. Given that we don't know a lot yet though, I guess you're right to say my ". . . question is too early."

I'm happy with the conversation though. I've read a little of some interesting perspectives here, and it helped me realize that maybe a 20 MP 1:1:1 sensor won't be "so bad" when compared to the 25.5 MP SD Quattro H. I almost wonder now if Sigma has chosen 20 MP for this new camera in an effort to match the SD Quattro H, thereby inciting a riot among Foveonites. There could be a great battle between Merrillians and the Quattronians, looming on the horizon. I wonder if that's good for Sigma. I wonder if the constant debates and comparisons of Merrill and Quattro photos over the past couple of years has been healthy for Sigma. It could have lead to a great deal of free press, and I guess it's possible that some of the debate sparked some creative thinking at Sigma.

 

[LasseS]

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes price as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Agree

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes features as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

We know the camera will have a 1:1:1 Foveon full frame sensor. That is the only feature that interests me, and what I have wished for the 10+ tears I have used a Foveon camera. Sigma don't need to compete on features or resolution. They need to focus on image quality. That is where they excel.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes performance as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

We do know the inherent limitations of the Foveon technology, and also the strengths. The new camera will not compete in areas as high ISO, high speed or general versatility. But the AF will be much improved compared to previous 1:1:1 cameras because of mirrorless design, as will the usability. And we get the possibility to explore alternative optics that can widen the range of expressions in our images as well as field of use. The fact that it is a FF give us more alternatives for wide angles and a larger toolbox for use of DoF.

Are you detecting a pattern?

Yes

 

[TN Args]

....I'm happy with the conversation though. I've read a little of some interesting perspectives here, and it helped me realize that maybe a 20 MP 1:1:1 sensor won't be "so bad" when compared to the 25.5 MP SD Quattro H. I almost wonder now if Sigma has chosen 20 MP for this new camera in an effort to match the SD Quattro H, thereby inciting a riot among Foveonites. There could be a great battle between Merrillians and the Quattronians, looming on the horizon. I wonder if that's good for Sigma. I wonder if the constant debates and comparisons of Merrill and Quattro photos over the past couple of years has been healthy for Sigma. It could have lead to a great deal of free press, and I guess it's possible that some of the debate sparked some creative thinking at Sigma.

...or with their brand new sensor fab partner, they could be just doing what is possible rather than desirable.

Maybe 20 MP 1:1:1 is all the new sensor company can manage by 2020. Who knows? Sigma have announced the change without giving any reasons, except one: that there is a new sensor partner. Which leaves the obvious conclusion that it's a forced change.

Maybe it isn't. But those are the only 2 pieces of info they gave us, and they gave them together in that presentation.

If it is a forced change, that means 1:1:1 and 20 MP is a baby step, step #1, and they might move on to a more genuinely-high-res Quattro sensor when the fab plant is ready. That would explain why they announced 1:1:1 with no reason, to let the new camera have its day in the sun, and not to give an anti-Quattro tech reason. Also Rule #1: never discuss future cameras, especially not more than one camera ahead.

Who knows? That's why I tend to avoid speculation. You can go down too many valid rabbit holes.

Here's some fun speculation: Sigma Marketing says, "Hey, here is how we sell the 20 MP camera, let's call it 60.9 MP!" Sigma Engineering replies, "Oh no, not this sh** again...groan..."

 

[richard stone]

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes price as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes features as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes performance as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Are you detecting a pattern?

If the "new" Sigma has a slightly "better" sensor, and output, does not cost a lot more, and is about the right size, all as compared with current and past versions of the Sigma cameras, it should have many people interested in buying one.

That much seems entirely reasonable and of course rather meaningless.

Sigma is in a bit of an existential struggle, and it can either energetically compete with the best products or die as a camera maker. There is no middle ground.

But I think the idea is that this basic 20MP FF sensor as now proposed would "work" very well for many past and current enthusiasts. Would it make sense to provide at some point a body with an alternative quattro architecture sensor, assuming Sigma can do slightly better with the actual output in SPP? Or go direct to DNG? I think so.

My concern is that Sigma has not been a "pro" camera exactly, nor a good action camera, not particularly versatile, and when combined with the new Sigma lenses it tends to feel rather large and heavy.

Still, in my opinion the Sigma/Foveon output is frequently superb. And the sd cameras themselves seem well made and well designed.

About all we can do at this point is wish them well.

Sigma is in an existential struggle?

You mean many of the top rated lenses of the past few years haven't been Sigma lenses?

You mean Sigma hasn't been committed to the Foveon partnership for the past 20+ years?

You mean Sigma - as a camera manufacturer - intends to compete in the Sports arena?

Sorry - but as far as I'm concerned, we've been reading the reviews of two completely different websites... And I'm reasonably sure we've both been reading the reviews from THIS site.

Yes, of course you are right, in terms of the Sigma business as a whole. Which is, I guess mainly lenses, and now very good lenses. I should have been more specific as to the camera business.

But as to the camera business I still think Sigma is in a bit of a pickle. I like their cameras, and I like the sdQ particularly. In theory on low res it should work a lot like the SD15.

And I believe that Sigma management wants to produce a very competitive camera at a good price. But the usual rules still apply: Grow or die. They can't sit on what they have produced. They have to move forward if they want to stay in the camera business.

--

My small gallery: http://www.pbase.com/richard44/inbox

 

[Sjak]

And I believe that Sigma management wants to produce a very competitive camera at a good price. But the usual rules still apply: Grow or die. They can't sit on what they have produced. They have to move forward if they want to stay in the camera business.

True.

From this perspective (selling camera's) the L-alliance is also a brilliant opportunity for Sigma.

Potentially, SL or S users might want to add a 2nd body with a different "flavour", or people (like me) interested in using all kinds of lenses on a Foveon (the SA-mount is limiting for that) now have a promising camera to wait for.

 

[danski0224]

And I believe that Sigma management wants to produce a very competitive camera at a good price. But the usual rules still apply: Grow or die. They can't sit on what they have produced. They have to move forward if they want to stay in the camera business.

I'll agree with the spirit of the first sentence here.

As far as the rest of it goes (in particular the "die" part), I don't think it applies at all, especially now.

Sigma has a vibrant lens business, much more so than in the past. This profitable lens side of Sigma can certainly support the "hobby" side of Sigma, which is their Foveon/Quattro cameras.

Sigma is also privately held- no shareholders to satisfy.

I would be surprised if Sigma film cameras ever sold in appreciable numbers, and I have the same opinion of their digital cameras- at least up through the original SD1 (no M). I would guess that only with the Quattro cameras (excluding the H), has Sigma sold an appreciable number of them in total.

The original retail price of the SD1 (no M) probably represented a true price to at least break even. But, excluding the unique Foveon image rendering, the camera had (has) way too many faults to sell at the original price that exceeded $9,000.00. The 1 series Canons of the time would have been a much better/useful camera purchase. Even at $2,300.00 (MSRP), the SD1M is priced way higher than the much more versatile sdQ(H).

With all of the SD/DP and sd/dp cameras, Sigma has spread sensor costs across multiple camera bodies, although I have a suspicion that the fixed lens camera sensors have been different from the interchangeable lens camera sensors (focus points). Even so, the bulk of the development costs are spread across the product line. This is why I would expect the next generation of DP/dp cameras to use the "full frame" sensor- and there is no reason for Sigma to not use crop lenses (even in an H size) and crop the sensor in firmware. I would be surprised if there were either 2 sensor sizes or "full frame" (sensor and lens) DP/dp cameras.

In short, Sigma can keep doing pretty much whatever the heck they want to in the camera business, as long as the lens side is in the black. That is an admirable position to be in.

--
Moments in Time, a work in progress.... https://www.flickr.com/gp/142423236@N08/965cs3

 

[Scottelly]

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes price as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes features as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Every camera purchase decision I ever make includes performance as a consideration. We don't have that.

Your question is too early.

Are you detecting a pattern?

If the "new" Sigma has a slightly "better" sensor, and output, does not cost a lot more, and is about the right size, all as compared with current and past versions of the Sigma cameras, it should have many people interested in buying one.

That much seems entirely reasonable and of course rather meaningless.

Sigma is in a bit of an existential struggle, and it can either energetically compete with the best products or die as a camera maker. There is no middle ground.

But I think the idea is that this basic 20MP FF sensor as now proposed would "work" very well for many past and current enthusiasts. Would it make sense to provide at some point a body with an alternative quattro architecture sensor, assuming Sigma can do slightly better with the actual output in SPP? Or go direct to DNG? I think so.

My concern is that Sigma has not been a "pro" camera exactly, nor a good action camera, not particularly versatile, and when combined with the new Sigma lenses it tends to feel rather large and heavy.

Still, in my opinion the Sigma/Foveon output is frequently superb. And the sd cameras themselves seem well made and well designed.

About all we can do at this point is wish them well.

Sigma is in an existential struggle?

You mean many of the top rated lenses of the past few years haven't been Sigma lenses?

You mean Sigma hasn't been committed to the Foveon partnership for the past 20+ years?

You mean Sigma - as a camera manufacturer - intends to compete in the Sports arena?

Sorry - but as far as I'm concerned, we've been reading the reviews of two completely different websites... And I'm reasonably sure we've both been reading the reviews from THIS site.

Yes, of course you are right, in terms of the Sigma business as a whole. Which is, I guess mainly lenses, and now very good lenses. I should have been more specific as to the camera business.

But as to the camera business I still think Sigma is in a bit of a pickle. I like their cameras, and I like the sdQ particularly. In theory on low res it should work a lot like the SD15.

And I believe that Sigma management wants to produce a very competitive camera at a good price. But the usual rules still apply: Grow or die. They can't sit on what they have produced. They have to move forward if they want to stay in the camera business.

This I agree with, which is one reason why my initial reaction was negative. But the new camera may offer exactly what the SD Quattro H offered in a way - improvements in image quality to some degree (larger sensor, more detail captured), and improvements in operation (faster operation, better focusing, etc.). I have no doubt the new camera will offer lower levels of noise (probably the lowest noise levels of any Sigma camera ever made). I also have no doubt that the new camera will match the SD Quattro H so closely, that it might not seem different in resolution, except in cloud and red dresses (or bedspreads and such). Surely the Quattro, with its 5.5 MP more SHOULD offer more resolution. That's more than 25% extra, right? But the APS-C Quattro barely showed more detail, even with more than 30% extra, and in some things it can't match Merrill.

 

[Scottelly]

And I believe that Sigma management wants to produce a very competitive camera at a good price. But the usual rules still apply: Grow or die. They can't sit on what they have produced. They have to move forward if they want to stay in the camera business.

I'll agree with the spirit of the first sentence here.

As far as the rest of it goes (in particular the "die" part), I don't think it applies at all, especially now.

Sigma has a vibrant lens business, much more so than in the past. This profitable lens side of Sigma can certainly support the "hobby" side of Sigma, which is their Foveon/Quattro cameras.

Sigma is also privately held- no shareholders to satisfy.

I would be surprised if Sigma film cameras ever sold in appreciable numbers, and I have the same opinion of their digital cameras- at least up through the original SD1 (no M). I would guess that only with the Quattro cameras (excluding the H), has Sigma sold an appreciable number of them in total.

The original retail price of the SD1 (no M) probably represented a true price to at least break even. But, excluding the unique Foveon image rendering, the camera had (has) way too many faults to sell at the original price that exceeded $9,000.00. The 1 series Canons of the time would have been a much better/useful camera purchase. Even at $2,300.00 (MSRP), the SD1M is priced way higher than the much more versatile sdQ(H).

With all of the SD/DP and sd/dp cameras, Sigma has spread sensor costs across multiple camera bodies, although I have a suspicion that the fixed lens camera sensors have been different from the interchangeable lens camera sensors (focus points). Even so, the bulk of the development costs are spread across the product line. This is why I would expect the next generation of DP/dp cameras to use the "full frame" sensor- and there is no reason for Sigma to not use crop lenses (even in an H size) and crop the sensor in firmware. I would be surprised if there were either 2 sensor sizes or "full frame" (sensor and lens) DP/dp cameras.

In short, Sigma can keep doing pretty much whatever the heck they want to in the camera business, as long as the lens side is in the black. That is an admirable position to be in.

I agree with this assessment, but I think I should point out that the SD1 is still selling, and it has just 20 reviews at B&H, after all these years:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/846208-REG/Sigma_C26900_SD1_Merrill_Digital_SLR.html

The SD Quattro H has almost as many reviews (14), and it's a much newer camera:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1234172-REG/sigma_sd_quattro_h_mirrorless.html

Add to that the 7 reviews from the SD Quattro, and it looks like the Quattro cameras might be out-selling the SD1, since combined they have 21 reviews, even though they're much newer cameras (been on the market for less time). It makes sense that they would be out-selling the SD1, considering the fact that they're much less expensive.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1234171-REG/sigma_sd_quattro_mirrorless_digital.html

So I'm thinking Sigma is doing just fine. They now have four fixed-lens cameras and three interchangeable lens cameras. Compare that to what they were offering back in the time when the SD-10 replaced the SD-9.

Years ago Sigma sold one interchangeable lens camera at a time (at the time of the SD-14), and eventually two (when the SD-15 and SD1 were selling simultaneously). I believe that at some point Sigma might sell three L-mount cameras simultaneously, possibly including the first one (the upcoming full-frame 20 MP per layer camera), followed by an APS-C camera, and possibly by another, newer, full-frame camera (a more premium model, possibly with an upgraded sensor, but possibly just with the same sensor, but added features, like GPS and maybe a tilt screen, if the first L-mount camera doesn't have a tilt screen). For all we know though, Sigma may decide to update the SD Quattro and SD Quattro H with an L mount. I'm actually surprised they haven't already announced that. They could upgrade the processors in those cameras, double the buffer, and upgrade the viewfinder too. Maybe they haven't announced that, because they want to sell out their SA-mount inventory first. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. In fact, it could be that the full-frame camera delay could be related to a marketing decision. They may have decided that if they don't make such an announcement, then their SA-mount inventory will sit on the shelf forever. I'm surprised though that they haven't lowered prices to clear them out, if that's the case, so I suspect it's really all above board, and they are just taking their time to get things right.

 

[danski0224]

The SD1M may still be "for sale", but my guess is that is is no longer in production.

In other words, the inventory is all "new old stock".

It is on sale for $500 less on the Sigma USA web page at $1,799.00

The Quattro cameras are each $100 off.

Refurbished SD1M + 50-200 lens for $899.00

 

[FDecker]

....I'm happy with the conversation though. I've read a little of some interesting perspectives here, and it helped me realize that maybe a 20 MP 1:1:1 sensor won't be "so bad" when compared to the 25.5 MP SD Quattro H. I almost wonder now if Sigma has chosen 20 MP for this new camera in an effort to match the SD Quattro H, thereby inciting a riot among Foveonites. There could be a great battle between Merrillians and the Quattronians, looming on the horizon. I wonder if that's good for Sigma. I wonder if the constant debates and comparisons of Merrill and Quattro photos over the past couple of years has been healthy for Sigma. It could have lead to a great deal of free press, and I guess it's possible that some of the debate sparked some creative thinking at Sigma.

...or with their brand new sensor fab partner, they could be just doing what is possible rather than desirable.

Maybe 20 MP 1:1:1 is all the new sensor company can manage by 2020. Who knows? Sigma have announced the change without giving any reasons, except one: that there is a new sensor partner. Which leaves the obvious conclusion that it's a forced change.

Maybe it isn't. But those are the only 2 pieces of info they gave us, and they gave them together in that presentation.

If it is a forced change, that means 1:1:1 and 20 MP is a baby step, step #1, and they might move on to a more genuinely-high-res Quattro sensor when the fab plant is ready. That would explain why they announced 1:1:1 with no reason, to let the new camera have its day in the sun, and not to give an anti-Quattro tech reason. Also Rule #1: never discuss future cameras, especially not more than one camera ahead.

Who knows? That's why I tend to avoid speculation. You can go down too many valid rabbit holes.

Here's some fun speculation: Sigma Marketing says, "Hey, here is how we sell the 20 MP camera, let's call it 60.9 MP!" Sigma Engineering replies, "Oh no, not this sh** again...groan..."

And still, your posts are full of speculations. Presented as if they are backed up by knowledge. And there is a strong bias. Everyone can see that bias.

 

[danski0224]

Bias? What bias?

 

[Ceistinne]

I agree with this assessment, but I think I should point out that the SD1 is still selling, and it has just 20 reviews at B&H, after all these years:

Scott,

Excuse me but can I say reviews at B&H proves nothing as far as sales is concerned, all it means is that 20 people wrote reviews.

S

 

[Scottelly]

The SD1M may still be "for sale", but my guess is that is is no longer in production.

In other words, the inventory is all "new old stock".

It has most-likely been that way since launch. I'd say Sigma makes a production run, and they warehouse the product until it is sold out. (I figure pretty much everything they make would be like this. In fact, that's how most small manufacturing companies work, from what I can tell. They make a new model, when they sell out of a previous model, if they think there's still a market for a similar product.) I believe a lot of large companies do things that way too. They have a model of a product that they sell into their distribution channel, and they blow them out when the new, replacement for that product is ready. In this case, Sigma is likely not blowing out the SD1 Merrill, because it keeps them more visible as a camera company, when people search the DSLR category at websites like Adorama, Amazon, and B&H. That free advertising alone is likely worth the cost of warehousing a few hundred camera bodies (if they have that many left), which likely take up less than 50 sq.ft. of space in their warehouse, which is probably at least 5,000 sq.ft.

It is on sale for $500 less on the Sigma USA web page at $1,799.00

It's exactly the same pricing at B&H.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=sigma%20sd1&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

The Quattro cameras are each $100 off.

Refurbished SD1M + 50-200 lens for $899.00

They probably don't make the SD Quattro or SD Quattro H anymore either. Those are likely warehoused too - probably taking up less than 100 sq.ft. of space in the Sigma warehouse.

 

[TN Args]

....I'm happy with the conversation though. I've read a little of some interesting perspectives here, and it helped me realize that maybe a 20 MP 1:1:1 sensor won't be "so bad" when compared to the 25.5 MP SD Quattro H. I almost wonder now if Sigma has chosen 20 MP for this new camera in an effort to match the SD Quattro H, thereby inciting a riot among Foveonites. There could be a great battle between Merrillians and the Quattronians, looming on the horizon. I wonder if that's good for Sigma. I wonder if the constant debates and comparisons of Merrill and Quattro photos over the past couple of years has been healthy for Sigma. It could have lead to a great deal of free press, and I guess it's possible that some of the debate sparked some creative thinking at Sigma.

...or with their brand new sensor fab partner, they could be just doing what is possible rather than desirable.

Maybe 20 MP 1:1:1 is all the new sensor company can manage by 2020. Who knows? Sigma have announced the change without giving any reasons, except one: that there is a new sensor partner. Which leaves the obvious conclusion that it's a forced change.

Maybe it isn't. But those are the only 2 pieces of info they gave us, and they gave them together in that presentation.

If it is a forced change, that means 1:1:1 and 20 MP is a baby step, step #1, and they might move on to a more genuinely-high-res Quattro sensor when the fab plant is ready. That would explain why they announced 1:1:1 with no reason, to let the new camera have its day in the sun, and not to give an anti-Quattro tech reason. Also Rule #1: never discuss future cameras, especially not more than one camera ahead.

Who knows? That's why I tend to avoid speculation. You can go down too many valid rabbit holes.

Here's some fun speculation: Sigma Marketing says, "Hey, here is how we sell the 20 MP camera, let's call it 60.9 MP!" Sigma Engineering replies, "Oh no, not this sh** again...groan..."

And still, your posts are full of speculations.

And I couldn't have made it clearer that they are speculations. Although based only on information from Sigma. Of which there are only 2 pieces: they have a new foundry, and its first product will be 1:1:1 and 20 MP.

Presented as if they are backed up by knowledge.

Nonsense. How many times do I have to write "Who knows?"? Clearly you wish to misrepresent me.

And there is a strong bias. Everyone can see that bias.

Bias imagines bias. You don't know what you are talking about as far as your talking about me is concerned. Stick to camera topics instead of personal attack. All I have ever done is defend Quattro against biased attack and nonsense from people talking gibberish like "true Foveon", which sound like "One True Way" to me and is more religious than technical. And now I see several people attacking me as biased. Me! The one who has been fighting bias the whole time! Absurd.

I give some clearly logical speculation (couldn't be more clear about it being speculation) in an unacceptable information vacuum from Sigma, but based at least on that little information, and what do I hear? Screams of Bias! Bias! You're so biased!

Hint: when your reaction to a comment is to shoot the messenger, you have lost the plot.

Sometimes it feels like I fell down a rabbit hole and into Wonderland, the things people tend to say here.

 

[Scottelly]

I agree with this assessment, but I think I should point out that the SD1 is still selling, and it has just 20 reviews at B&H, after all these years:

Scott,

Excuse me but can I say reviews at B&H proves nothing as far as sales is concerned, all it means is that 20 people wrote reviews.

S

It proves nothing. That's true. I think it's just an indicator. We have very little data to go on. There's no way to know if Sigma users write reviews more or less often than Nikon users. It could be that high-end Nikon users write fewer reviews than Sigma users. It could also be that Nikon D810 camera are for sale more than Sigma cameras . . . or the other way around (as a percentage of the total population of those cameras that are out there in the World today), so eBay numbers aren't exactly a good indication either. What else do we have that we can go by though? My numbers are very rough. I'd love it if someone could come up with more indicative stats.

 

[Scottelly]

....I'm happy with the conversation though. I've read a little of some interesting perspectives here, and it helped me realize that maybe a 20 MP 1:1:1 sensor won't be "so bad" when compared to the 25.5 MP SD Quattro H. I almost wonder now if Sigma has chosen 20 MP for this new camera in an effort to match the SD Quattro H, thereby inciting a riot among Foveonites. There could be a great battle between Merrillians and the Quattronians, looming on the horizon. I wonder if that's good for Sigma. I wonder if the constant debates and comparisons of Merrill and Quattro photos over the past couple of years has been healthy for Sigma. It could have lead to a great deal of free press, and I guess it's possible that some of the debate sparked some creative thinking at Sigma.

...or with their brand new sensor fab partner, they could be just doing what is possible rather than desirable.

Maybe 20 MP 1:1:1 is all the new sensor company can manage by 2020. Who knows? Sigma have announced the change without giving any reasons, except one: that there is a new sensor partner. Which leaves the obvious conclusion that it's a forced change.

Maybe it isn't. But those are the only 2 pieces of info they gave us, and they gave them together in that presentation.

If it is a forced change, that means 1:1:1 and 20 MP is a baby step, step #1, and they might move on to a more genuinely-high-res Quattro sensor when the fab plant is ready. That would explain why they announced 1:1:1 with no reason, to let the new camera have its day in the sun, and not to give an anti-Quattro tech reason. Also Rule #1: never discuss future cameras, especially not more than one camera ahead.

Who knows? That's why I tend to avoid speculation. You can go down too many valid rabbit holes.

Here's some fun speculation: Sigma Marketing says, "Hey, here is how we sell the 20 MP camera, let's call it 60.9 MP!" Sigma Engineering replies, "Oh no, not this sh** again...groan..."

And still, your posts are full of speculations.

And I couldn't have made it clearer that they are speculations. Although based only on information from Sigma. Of which there are only 2 pieces: they have a new foundry, and its first product will be 1:1:1 and 20 MP.

Presented as if they are backed up by knowledge.

Nonsense. How many times do I have to write "Who knows?"? Clearly you wish to misrepresent me.

And there is a strong bias. Everyone can see that bias.

Bias imagines bias. You don't know what you are talking about as far as your talking about me is concerned. Stick to camera topics instead of personal attack. All I have ever done is defend Quattro against biased attack and nonsense from people talking gibberish like "true Foveon", which sound like "One True Way" to me and is more religious than technical. And now I see several people attacking me as biased. Me! The one who has been fighting bias the whole time! Absurd.

I give some clearly logical speculation (couldn't be more clear about it being speculation) in an unacceptable information vacuum from Sigma, but based at least on that little information, and what do I hear? Screams of Bias! Bias! You're so biased!

Hint: when your reaction to a comment is to shoot the messenger, you have lost the plot.

Sometimes it feels like I fell down a rabbit hole and into Wonderland, the things people tend to say here.

LOL

This IS a Wonderland of sorts Args!

 

[jande9]

And still, your posts are full of speculations. Presented as if they are backed up by knowledge. And there is a strong bias. Everyone can see that bias.

Why did you actually write this?

On second thought, never mind.

Jan