sledzik102
Active member
I had D300 as a back up body and I used with my wide angle lens.
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will I get in trouble
- Thread starter sledzik102
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newsshooterjim
Senior Member
In Georgia (USA) judges have an absolute right to ban all cameras (and any other) electronic device from the courtroom. We have to fill out a form (Rule 22) requesting permission before we can even bring a camera through security.
Jim Dean
newsshooterjim
Senior Member
You don't say for sure, but I"m guessing from your description that there was not a hired photographer there? If there was, that's the hold up. If not, then I don't see what the big deal is.
The whole "children's right to privacy" think is a bit over the top. It sounds like the parents wanted you there, and were encouraging you to do this. If you had anyone who objected, I'd suggest not using their photos, but would put the rest of them up for sale.
As for the "call the lawyers" threat, tell him to have at it. Unless he can point to something warning you IN ADVANCE that photography was prohibited, there's not much to do.
Of course, I'm NOT a lawyer, so take my advice for what it's worth. I just know what I'd do. I hate bullies, and would call his bluff.
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Jim Dean
The whole "children's right to privacy" think is a bit over the top. It sounds like the parents wanted you there, and were encouraging you to do this. If you had anyone who objected, I'd suggest not using their photos, but would put the rest of them up for sale.
As for the "call the lawyers" threat, tell him to have at it. Unless he can point to something warning you IN ADVANCE that photography was prohibited, there's not much to do.
Of course, I'm NOT a lawyer, so take my advice for what it's worth. I just know what I'd do. I hate bullies, and would call his bluff.
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Jim Dean
WNPmedia
Well-known member
Most school photographers I know contribute some of the sale amount to the P&T or whatever the particular school has in the way of fund raising.
Have another go at the principal and offer him a slice of the action and see what happens. At end of the day, he has control over who will be allowed to do what on school property.
I know it's fine to say this after the event but you should have talked to him/her first. In over 25 years as a Professional photographer, I have come across stories like yours far too often. People trying to start a business without any business skills.
So to answer your question... What business? If you were actually the professional photographer you would have us believe, you would know to ask if there are any 'house rules' any and every time you step on to private property with a camera in your hands. You didn't. Learn from this and don't do it next time or at least do it right next time.
If you were doing it in one of the schools my partner has contracts with she'd sue you and the school without a second thought the minute you sold your first picture. You for taking her business away from her and the school for letting you do it.
If you want to be a school photographer, go work for one for a year or two and learn how it is done. Asking for help here is like telling a barmaid the troubles you are having with your wife.
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When I was younger everyone wanted someone with more experience, Now I have it they all want someone younger!
Have another go at the principal and offer him a slice of the action and see what happens. At end of the day, he has control over who will be allowed to do what on school property.
I know it's fine to say this after the event but you should have talked to him/her first. In over 25 years as a Professional photographer, I have come across stories like yours far too often. People trying to start a business without any business skills.
So to answer your question... What business? If you were actually the professional photographer you would have us believe, you would know to ask if there are any 'house rules' any and every time you step on to private property with a camera in your hands. You didn't. Learn from this and don't do it next time or at least do it right next time.
If you were doing it in one of the schools my partner has contracts with she'd sue you and the school without a second thought the minute you sold your first picture. You for taking her business away from her and the school for letting you do it.
If you want to be a school photographer, go work for one for a year or two and learn how it is done. Asking for help here is like telling a barmaid the troubles you are having with your wife.
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When I was younger everyone wanted someone with more experience, Now I have it they all want someone younger!
WNPmedia
Well-known member
That about sums it up then.
God help the OP if he/she takes your advice.
Schools are not public places.
The principal has a legal right to decide who will be allowed to conduct business on the school property.
If you feel like trying your luck with someone who has Government backing to pay the cost of legal fees, you be the first one to try it on yourself. Telling someone to buck the system when it is clearly going to cause them grief is not just bad advice, it's wrong advice.
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When I was younger everyone wanted someone with more experience, Now I have it they all want someone younger!
WNPmedia
Well-known member
The definition of a public place is the catch. It depends too on what country you are in. Any cameras whatsoever are banned from Australian courts. They couldn't ban them if they didn't have authority to do it.
Photography is banned from railway stations in at leat two Australian states. They couldn't ban it if they didn't have authority to do it. Neither the railways not the courtrooms are public places even though the public is allowed in there.
My partner has contracts with several schools. The contracts specifically say no other commercial or voluntary venture can take and/or distribute photos of the students during the life of the agreement. She's like a pit bull when it comes to guarding her income from poachers like the OP.
I have not the slightest doubt that the company she worked for before joining me, taught her every business skill she has. So that's two school photographers I know of that would sue the school and the other photographer at the drop of a hat... And win because both have done it before.
If I never give any more advice to anyone it would be to stay away from anywhere you 'think' is a public place until you find out if it is or not, if you are planning to sell photos taken there.
This includes so called public parks (controlled by the local council) shopping malls (controlled by centre management) and public or worse, private schools and National parks or defined recreation areas. I have permits myself and I'll report anyone I discover selling photos they've taken in the National parks without a permit... It's plain old business sense, nothing personal.
Wedding clients of mine who think they can just rock up to a public area and have Professional photos taken often get a huge shock to discover they need a permit to do it and have to pay for it... It's going to get worse, not better. Do your home work if you want to sell your photos.
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When I was younger everyone wanted someone with more experience, Now I have it they all want someone younger!
Photography is banned from railway stations in at leat two Australian states. They couldn't ban it if they didn't have authority to do it. Neither the railways not the courtrooms are public places even though the public is allowed in there.
My partner has contracts with several schools. The contracts specifically say no other commercial or voluntary venture can take and/or distribute photos of the students during the life of the agreement. She's like a pit bull when it comes to guarding her income from poachers like the OP.
I have not the slightest doubt that the company she worked for before joining me, taught her every business skill she has. So that's two school photographers I know of that would sue the school and the other photographer at the drop of a hat... And win because both have done it before.
If I never give any more advice to anyone it would be to stay away from anywhere you 'think' is a public place until you find out if it is or not, if you are planning to sell photos taken there.
This includes so called public parks (controlled by the local council) shopping malls (controlled by centre management) and public or worse, private schools and National parks or defined recreation areas. I have permits myself and I'll report anyone I discover selling photos they've taken in the National parks without a permit... It's plain old business sense, nothing personal.
Wedding clients of mine who think they can just rock up to a public area and have Professional photos taken often get a huge shock to discover they need a permit to do it and have to pay for it... It's going to get worse, not better. Do your home work if you want to sell your photos.
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When I was younger everyone wanted someone with more experience, Now I have it they all want someone younger!
WNPmedia
Well-known member
Actually you embarrass yourself and every American citizen with comments like that. This is an international forum. People from all over the world post here, even though the site originated in the UK it is now well and truly an International forum.
The photographer's rights you link to are USA specific and have no bearing on the rights of Australian, British or even Canadian photographers. Much less the plethora of European and Asian photographers who read & write English and post here.
By not distinguishing between advice given or asked for by your fellow Americans - advice that has nothing at all to do with photographer's rights outside the USA, you are demonstrating a presumption I would have thought was better left on Usenet than brought in here.
This is a link to the New South Wales (Australia) version of the Photographer's rights http://www.4020.net/words/photorights.php
I'm sure there are similar documents published in every country - if you just looked for them. In France for instance, you cannot photograph someone without their permission and you most certainly cannot photograph school children and offer the pictures for sale on a Yahoo photo site.
I'd imagine you can't do that in any country with any regard for children's right to privacy and certainly not on property under the control of a Government body with or without a 3rd parties permission or invitation.
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When I was younger everyone wanted someone with more experience, Now I have it they all want someone younger!
Bill McLeod
Senior Member
Whoops. I'm sorry if I embarrassed any of my American friends. I referenced Bert Krages Photographer's Rights because I knew Timberwolfpuppy is an American.
It is you who is making assumptions, dude. I'm a Canadian. I am fully aware of the laws in my own country and how the laws based on English common law differ from the laws of Quebec which is based on the Napoleonic code. However these laws mainly differ in usage, not in actually taking a photograph.
Don't confuse the right to take photographs in public with the right to use them for any purpose the photographer wants.
Robert J. Gonzalez
Senior Member
Sorry, you can't be in violation to any contract you aren't a party too, that's the schools problem.
rb6x7
Member
I would just forget I took them. Say you are sorry that your equipment failed the kids all blinked make an excuse. The common practice here in the US is a legal contract for services work for hire with the school board, booster club, Year book committee or PTA. It is a fundraiser for them, you are expected to donate(kick back) too. It is a model based on volume and quality control as the package is presold it is a production job. Deliver the goods cash the check and see you next year. Do not forget the school board is unpaid but their election campaigns do have expenses...your continued support is appreciated.
rb6x7
Member
Well said, but most photographers even on a Pro Forum will not have the frame of reference to understand. And would only say school photographers are poorly skilled. "I would never give this rubbish to my client!" without knowing the whole school of 412 passed before your lens (52 blinked once, 14 twice there goes the profit) all needing the exact head size photo for their ID's and the clerical work to put the face with the actual person must be perfect. And you set up did the job without a break and tore down your rig and got out of their way before lunches start at 10:30.
OK first,
I don’t believe you about the camera D300/D700. I’m guessing that somehow you felt changing the camera in your post would better fit each forum. Did you also have a D3 as a third camera, but didn’t get a chance to post on the D3 forum yet? BTW, the D700 would be a better choice for the wide shot (I know that is lens dependent).
Anyway, to your post, because I do believe the rest of your story:
I do mostly portrait work, but do some kids sports, but not a lot. I always shoot my daughter’s soccer team, as well as my son’s hockey team for free. I post the pictures on my web page (large size). It’s never hurt my business.
What kind of work do you usually “sell” for your business?
I don’t believe you about the camera D300/D700. I’m guessing that somehow you felt changing the camera in your post would better fit each forum. Did you also have a D3 as a third camera, but didn’t get a chance to post on the D3 forum yet? BTW, the D700 would be a better choice for the wide shot (I know that is lens dependent).
Anyway, to your post, because I do believe the rest of your story:
So were you hired to take pictures, or as you say “invited by a friend” and the other parents “assumed you were a hired pro” Were you going to sell your pics to your “friend," or were you doing it for free anyway?
Why can't you put them on the internet? You told the parents you were going to post them, and they can buy them. The principal told you not to “sell them” but you can “give them for free” So why not do just what you were going to do, but tell the parents they can download a large size picture for free and print it themselves?
How would you think this would hurt your “so called” business?
I do mostly portrait work, but do some kids sports, but not a lot. I always shoot my daughter’s soccer team, as well as my son’s hockey team for free. I post the pictures on my web page (large size). It’s never hurt my business.
What kind of work do you usually “sell” for your business?
What the OP said was
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"Overall I took 700 raw pictures. Groups, families, friends and everybody.
Telling people that they can buy them from my smug mug page and gave about 80 business cards."
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Not enough information. The "and everybody" and "gave out about 80 business cards" leads me to believe solicitation may have been involved.
All that said I believe as a professional selling portraits from a venue you should have done your homework and worked with the school officials prior to atrtempting to sell your work.
That said too many variables, interpretations and unknowns....
As others have said, if you want to do business in this arena in this, (geographical) area, you may want to work out a deal with the school official.
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"Overall I took 700 raw pictures. Groups, families, friends and everybody.
Telling people that they can buy them from my smug mug page and gave about 80 business cards."
*********************************************************************
Not enough information. The "and everybody" and "gave out about 80 business cards" leads me to believe solicitation may have been involved.
All that said I believe as a professional selling portraits from a venue you should have done your homework and worked with the school officials prior to atrtempting to sell your work.
That said too many variables, interpretations and unknowns....
As others have said, if you want to do business in this arena in this, (geographical) area, you may want to work out a deal with the school official.
Joe P Doyle
Forum Enthusiast
did you just happen to have these cards on you or did you bring them with the intention of generating business from the school?
You need permission from the school and a signed parental consent form from each parent/s, you have no right to carry out business on private owned property without permission
Also using the images for advertising could get you in a whole lot of bother without consent from the parents/guardian (written)
Joe
http://www.pbase.com/joed
Photography simple is'nt it??
You need permission from the school and a signed parental consent form from each parent/s, you have no right to carry out business on private owned property without permission
Also using the images for advertising could get you in a whole lot of bother without consent from the parents/guardian (written)
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Joe
http://www.pbase.com/joed
Photography simple is'nt it??
RRudeski
Well-known member
You're ignoring the sentence that immediately preceded the one you chose to quote.
That's not to say he shouldn't have worked out a deal with the principal, just that he appears to have shot other kids at the parents' requests.
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Rob
That, in conjunction with the sentence you quaoted, leads me to believe that he took pictures for lots of parents who requested he do so.
That's not to say he shouldn't have worked out a deal with the principal, just that he appears to have shot other kids at the parents' requests.
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Rob
JJ Simpson
Forum Enthusiast
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What sort of country allows the the general public to waltz into a 'Government' school (or any school for children) and start taking pictures to sell on the 'internet'? Surely those students weren't 'in' public if they were on the school grounds.
The 'parent' has no authority or jurisdiction to give such permission for a photographer to earn money from students.
Government is not the same as public.... (gawd, even an Aussie knows that
)
Paul Grupp
Veteran Member
. . . do you have any idea about typical US school policy and processes in regards to vendors?
Every school district has a policy -- often demanded by state law that outlines how vendors who are allowed to work with a school district, its students and parents will be selected. There is typically a bidding and RFQ process that allows the school to select the best vendor -- not just the one who walks in the door first. There are requirements that vendors must meet -- sometimes many, many requirements, including non-descrimination, criminal background checks, and on and on. Further, in many states you must register your business with the state before you can do business with a school.
By doing business on school property without prior permission, the OP has probably not only violated school district policy, but quite possibly the law.
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-- In search of Wabi-Sabi
Every school district has a policy -- often demanded by state law that outlines how vendors who are allowed to work with a school district, its students and parents will be selected. There is typically a bidding and RFQ process that allows the school to select the best vendor -- not just the one who walks in the door first. There are requirements that vendors must meet -- sometimes many, many requirements, including non-descrimination, criminal background checks, and on and on. Further, in many states you must register your business with the state before you can do business with a school.
By doing business on school property without prior permission, the OP has probably not only violated school district policy, but quite possibly the law.
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-- In search of Wabi-Sabi
Paul Grupp
Veteran Member
. . . he is likely to be in violation of district policy and even state law concerning vendor selection, commercial, advertising, and solicitation activities on school property, bidding and RFQ process, etc. etc. Pretty much anywhere in America, he has probably violated a BUNCH of these.
I don't think what he did is that big a deal -- he's not going to jail for it -- on the other hand, suggesting that what he did was perfectly OK and that he should tell the principal to buzz off is woefully misinformed.
Best,
Paul
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-- In search of Wabi-Sabi
I don't think what he did is that big a deal -- he's not going to jail for it -- on the other hand, suggesting that what he did was perfectly OK and that he should tell the principal to buzz off is woefully misinformed.
Best,
Paul
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-- In search of Wabi-Sabi
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