Why manual mode?

[LordKOTL]

My $0.02:

Yeah, there is that falsity of "pros" or at least "the good ones" are shooting in manual only and a beginner wanting to emulate that. It takes skill to do so and there's an inherent stigma nowadays against being a "Beginner", "Neophyte", or "nOOb". It doesn't help when you have people who are more "in the know" than the beginner who show their superiority complex by stating such bilge as "if you're gonna shoot auto just stay with your P&S" or "Pros use Manual". It is detrimental. Everyone learns differently and IMHO those in the know should be cultivating best results, not "since it works for me it's the only way anyone with any photographic worth should do it". If they get a great shot on full auto, they still had to compose the shot, and that does deserve some bonus points over a badly composed photo with an "ideal" exposure done manually.

Personally, I look at 2 regimes when I shoot: it's either "Gotta get the shot" or "Fooling around/experimenting". If it's a "gotta get the shot" regime, there should be no shame or stigma in shooting in an auto or semiauto (A or S) mode. Why? You gotta get the shot and 95% of the time, an auto or semi auto mode will get you close enough to the normal exposure that you just need to worry about composition. For fooling around, yes, go full manual if you desire but expect failure as an option--and there's no stigma against failure in that regime--you're experimenting. If it doesn't work, you know it doesn't work. If it works, then congrats! File that away as something that works. If nothing works manually, shoot it in auto and figure out what your camera did, and use that as a jump-off point.

At least that's my opinion.

P.S. Photography is not the only field where "manual only" is a mantra. In some car enthusiast circles you'll get Honda Civic enthusiasts calling a Corvette a "Grocery Getter" with disdain simply because it has an automatic transmission, while their Civic is a stickshift--even though that "Grocery Getter" Corvette would already have finished a 1/4mile drag race by the time their Civic has fully released the clutch.

 

[AnalogTrout]

I like manual because it makes more sense to me than dealing with AE lock. I'd rather lock my own exposure and then live or die by the results. I make lots of mistakes. I like mistakes. It means I'm learning.

When I'm learning something, I want to understand its most elemental components before moving on. Sort of a "learn the rules before you can break them" type thing.

I think this forum is a helpful resource, but the condescension and bitterness are puzzling.

 

[lehill]

I like manual because it makes more sense to me than dealing with AE lock. I'd rather lock my own exposure and then live or die by the results. I make lots of mistakes. I like mistakes. It means I'm learning.

When I'm learning something, I want to understand its most elemental components before moving on. Sort of a "learn the rules before you can break them" type thing.

I think this forum is a helpful resource, but the condescension and bitterness are puzzling.

I think you're seeing things that aren't in this thread. Honest, I'm not being condescending or bitter, this has been a very civilized thread.

There are other threads in this and other forums that are like street fights. Most of the time the moderator steps in and locks the thread, in the worst cases a member may get banned. There's a lot of condescension and bitterness in those threads.

--
Lance H

 

[LordKOTL]

I like manual because it makes more sense to me than dealing with AE lock. I'd rather lock my own exposure and then live or die by the results. I make lots of mistakes. I like mistakes. It means I'm learning.

When I'm learning something, I want to understand its most elemental components before moving on. Sort of a "learn the rules before you can break them" type thing.

I think this forum is a helpful resource, but the condescension and bitterness are puzzling.

If you're referring to my 1st paragraph being bitter or condescending, let me rephrase with more of a reference to your shooting style.

You accept that going full manual means you're more apt to mistakes, and that's fine. That's similar to my shooting regime when I'm fooling around and whatnot--and there's nothing wrong with that IMHO.

Nor is there anything wrong with anyone who chooses to shoot full auto regardless of what type of camera/lenses they use.

What I was referring in the negative would be if someone experienced who shoots manual looked down upon a beginner because the beginner felt more comfortable shooting auto or semi-auto than full manual--and made snide condescending remarks like, "Why not just stick with a point-and shoot if you don't want to shoot manual?" or the like.

 

[Mystery member]

I like manual because it makes more sense to me than dealing with AE lock. I'd rather lock my own exposure and then live or die by the results. I make lots of mistakes. I like mistakes. It means I'm learning.

When I'm learning something, I want to understand its most elemental components before moving on. Sort of a "learn the rules before you can break them" type thing.

I think this forum is a helpful resource, but the condescension and bitterness are puzzling.

I don't see where AE-Lock comes into the equation; there's usually an option to use AE-Lock (or not), and there are some very clever ways to use it in manual mode.

You may see it as condescending, but I've always regarded the "elemental components" of photography, or "the rules" as you put it, as absolutely obvious. Why you would need to go through some existential exercise with manual mode to learn the basics has always been a puzzle to me.

Well, at least Aperture and Shutter Speed are obvious, but the matter of ISO is apparently beset with formidable issues that would "cross a Rabbi's eyes" (borrowing an expression from Fiddler on the Roof). If you want to experience condescension and bitterness, just try suggesting that ISO is (a) Part of exposure, or (b) A sensitivity control.

 

[AnalogTrout]

I like manual because it makes more sense to me than dealing with AE lock. I'd rather lock my own exposure and then live or die by the results. I make lots of mistakes. I like mistakes. It means I'm learning.

When I'm learning something, I want to understand its most elemental components before moving on. Sort of a "learn the rules before you can break them" type thing.

I think this forum is a helpful resource, but the condescension and bitterness are puzzling.

I don't see where AE-Lock comes into the equation; there's usually an option to use AE-Lock (or not), and there are some very clever ways to use it in manual mode

You may see it as condescending, but I've always regarded the "elemental components" of photography, or "the rules" as you put it, as absolutely obvious. Why you would need to go through some existential exercise with manual mode to learn the basics has always been a puzzle to me.

It's nice for you that you see the rules as absolutely obvious. I see them as tenets best internalized through experience. So that's my approach. I don't find it existential in the least. That's merely my experience and my approach. I don't claim it would or should work for anyone else.

 

[Mystery member]

You may see it as condescending, but I've always regarded the "elemental components" of photography, or "the rules" as you put it, as absolutely obvious. Why you would need to go through some existential exercise with manual mode to learn the basics has always been a puzzle to me.

It's nice for you that you see the rules as absolutely obvious. I see them as tenets best internalized through experience. So that's my approach. I don't find it existential in the least. That's merely my experience and my approach. I don't claim it would or should work for anyone else.

Thanks for your response. I've often attempted to "demystify" this topic, with little reaction from other forum members.

An appropriate shutter speed could be derived from first principles without any prior knowledge of photography, and the facts concerning aperture can be learned in a few minutes.

Another way to look at exposure is to imagine a curious novice who was presented with a camera. A rational approach might be to set both aperture and shutter speed controls at the mid-point of the available range. On one camera that I have to hand, that would be something like f/8 and 1/125s, which would likely produce a reasonable result.

 

[JoeyRoa]

My advice to a beginner would be to try manual when you have used the camera for a year or two.

Lol.. i started also in full manual mode.

Great advice!!!

Any additional advice?

--
Close up!

 

[JoeyRoa]

Unfortunately full manual mode is only suitable for people who know exactly what they are doing and have the time.

I think statements like this are part of what drives beginners to think that manual mode is the holy grail of understanding. I don't disagree with it, but beginners usually lack the context to know why that would be true.

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Good luck and happy shooting!

I also started from Manual Mode as a complete beginner, i learned a lot from it. Now im exploring other modes like Aperture.

--
Close up!

 

[Halina123]

Unfortunately full manual mode is only suitable for people who know exactly what they are doing and have the time.

I think statements like this are part of what drives beginners to think that manual mode is the holy grail of understanding. I don't disagree with it, but beginners usually lack the context to know why that would be true.

--
Good luck and happy shooting!

I also started from Manual Mode as a complete beginner, i learned a lot from it. Now im exploring other modes like Aperture.

--
Close up!

Just to be clear. I also started in full manual mode because my first camera only had manual.

But before I even used a camera. I had a very good theoretical understanding of exposure and how ISO (ASA/DIN) and aperture and shutter speed are all related. And how it affects dof, IQ, camera shake and subject movement etc.

And most importantly, what range of values are sensible in a given situation and what is absurd.

So using a camera in manual mode was easy.

Now with modern cameras with semi auto and full auto modes it is so much faster and easier.

 

[JoeyRoa]

Unfortunately full manual mode is only suitable for people who know exactly what they are doing and have the time.

I think statements like this are part of what drives beginners to think that manual mode is the holy grail of understanding. I don't disagree with it, but beginners usually lack the context to know why that would be true.

 

[bobn2]

Unfortunately full manual mode is only suitable for people who know exactly what they are doing and have the time.

I think statements like this are part of what drives beginners to think that manual mode is the holy grail of understanding. I don't disagree with it, but beginners usually lack the context to know why that would be true.

 

[JoeyRoa]

I also experienced film camera used in my photo Journalism class.. it was Pentax manual camera (they called it mechanical, am i correct?), i forgot the exact model my professor lend me. I also remember ASA400 black and white film i used. So when i had my first DSLR Nikon D5100 my mode dial stayed in M mode because it was my experience in an old camera which has no PAS modes. Honestly i never touched the Green mode and P mode until i traded my D5100 to a D5500.

For me as a DSLR beginner, manual mode is fun because i have the full command to a camera. It is my personal opinion anyway.

Most probably a K1000, the mainstay of photography schools for years.

It was 1992 i think. If this k1000 has a something like brownish color.. you may be right.

Im totally blank about it.

 

[bobn2]

I also experienced film camera used in my photo Journalism class.. it was Pentax manual camera (they called it mechanical, am i correct?), i forgot the exact model my professor lend me. I also remember ASA400 black and white film i used. So when i had my first DSLR Nikon D5100 my mode dial stayed in M mode because it was my experience in an old camera which has no PAS modes. Honestly i never touched the Green mode and P mode until i traded my D5100 to a D5500.

For me as a DSLR beginner, manual mode is fun because i have the full command to a camera. It is my personal opinion anyway.

Most probably a K1000, the mainstay of photography schools for years.

It was 1992 i think. If this k1000 has a something like brownish color.. you may be right.

Im totally blank about it.

Strangely enough, here is an article about it

Loading…

camera-wiki.org

and it shows one in a 'brownish color'.

 

[JoeyRoa]

I also experienced film camera used in my photo Journalism class.. it was Pentax manual camera (they called it mechanical, am i correct?), i forgot the exact model my professor lend me. I also remember ASA400 black and white film i used. So when i had my first DSLR Nikon D5100 my mode dial stayed in M mode because it was my experience in an old camera which has no PAS modes. Honestly i never touched the Green mode and P mode until i traded my D5100 to a D5500.

For me as a DSLR beginner, manual mode is fun because i have the full command to a camera. It is my personal opinion anyway.

Most probably a K1000, the mainstay of photography schools for years.

It was 1992 i think. If this k1000 has a something like brownish color.. you may be right.

Im totally blank about it.

Strangely enough, here is an article about it

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Pentax_K1000

and it shows one in a 'brownish color'.

 

[AlbertTheLazy]

Another way to look at exposure is to imagine a curious novice who was presented with a camera. A rational approach might be to set both aperture and shutter speed controls at the mid-point of the available range. On one camera that I have to hand, that would be something like f/8 and 1/125s, which would likely produce a reasonable result.

Assuming that our 'curious novice' is likely to view his first results as out of camera JPEGs then there is a slight problem with this approach.

On the camera in front of me (Fuji X-T1) the ISO dial has a mid point of ISO1600, counting from 'L' (nominally ISO100) to 'H2' (by default ISO25600).

Using ISO 1600 with f:8 and 1/125s would result in over exposure by about five or six stops on 'a nice sunny day with the sun over your shoulder', based on our old friend 'sunny 16'. I doubt if it would be possible to rescue the highlights even processing from raw.

It is now about 6pm solar time here and I've just done the experiment. Results are as predicted.

Not sure whether to add a :-( or a at this point.

Going back to the original point about beginners and Manual. I run beginners' courses at my camera club and work through all the options, including manual, and it is quite apparent that most beginners have enough trouble grasping the implications of changing each setting that making an informed choice for what combination to use for manual exposure in any given conditions is pretty demanding.

I tell them to go out and practice shooting until they are confident, but in the meantime to use program for anything important to them.

 

[Gerry Winterbourne]

Another way to look at exposure is to imagine a curious novice who was presented with a camera. A rational approach might be to set both aperture and shutter speed controls at the mid-point of the available range. On one camera that I have to hand, that would be something like f/8 and 1/125s, which would likely produce a reasonable result.

Assuming that our 'curious novice' is likely to view his first results as out of camera JPEGs then there is a slight problem with this approach.

On the camera in front of me (Fuji X-T1) the ISO dial has a mid point of ISO1600, counting from 'L' (nominally ISO100) to 'H2' (by default ISO25600).

WeyCuda didn't mention ISO; but that doesn't alter the logic of what you say. The obvious question is why it is rational to set two of the three variables at their midpoints but not the third?

But I don't even think it's that rational anyway. A curious novice in a car wouldn't think to start by selecting 3rd gear (midpoint of a 5-speed box), for example.

 

[bobn2]

Another way to look at exposure is to imagine a curious novice who was presented with a camera. A rational approach might be to set both aperture and shutter speed controls at the mid-point of the available range. On one camera that I have to hand, that would be something like f/8 and 1/125s, which would likely produce a reasonable result.

Assuming that our 'curious novice' is likely to view his first results as out of camera JPEGs then there is a slight problem with this approach.

On the camera in front of me (Fuji X-T1) the ISO dial has a mid point of ISO1600, counting from 'L' (nominally ISO100) to 'H2' (by default ISO25600).

WeyCuda didn't mention ISO; but that doesn't alter the logic of what you say. The obvious question is why it is rational to set two of the three variables at their midpoints but not the third?

Because they are doing different things, and if you treat them just as 'three variables', all equally potent, you forget that.

But I don't even think it's that rational anyway. A curious novice in a car wouldn't think to start by selecting 3rd gear (midpoint of a 5-speed box), for example.

 

[Gerry Winterbourne]

Another way to look at exposure is to imagine a curious novice who was presented with a camera. A rational approach might be to set both aperture and shutter speed controls at the mid-point of the available range. On one camera that I have to hand, that would be something like f/8 and 1/125s, which would likely produce a reasonable result.

Assuming that our 'curious novice' is likely to view his first results as out of camera JPEGs then there is a slight problem with this approach.

On the camera in front of me (Fuji X-T1) the ISO dial has a mid point of ISO1600, counting from 'L' (nominally ISO100) to 'H2' (by default ISO25600).

WeyCuda didn't mention ISO; but that doesn't alter the logic of what you say. The obvious question is why it is rational to set two of the three variables at their midpoints but not the third?

Because they are doing different things, and if you treat them just as 'three variables', all equally potent, you forget that.

This sub-thread is about a novice who knows nothing about cameras or exposure picking up manual controls by trial and error. It's not a question of forgetting anything - it's about not knowing it in the first place.

 

[bobn2]

Another way to look at exposure is to imagine a curious novice who was presented with a camera. A rational approach might be to set both aperture and shutter speed controls at the mid-point of the available range. On one camera that I have to hand, that would be something like f/8 and 1/125s, which would likely produce a reasonable result.

Assuming that our 'curious novice' is likely to view his first results as out of camera JPEGs then there is a slight problem with this approach.

On the camera in front of me (Fuji X-T1) the ISO dial has a mid point of ISO1600, counting from 'L' (nominally ISO100) to 'H2' (by default ISO25600).

WeyCuda didn't mention ISO; but that doesn't alter the logic of what you say. The obvious question is why it is rational to set two of the three variables at their midpoints but not the third?

Because they are doing different things, and if you treat them just as 'three variables', all equally potent, you forget that.

This sub-thread is about a novice who knows nothing about cameras or exposure picking up manual controls by trial and error. It's not a question of forgetting anything - it's about not knowing it in the first place.

So, you contend that this beginner would not be rational?