Why I returned the S70

[MK19401]

For several weeks I had been waiting anxiously for an S70. Two weeks ago, I finally found one at a local Circuit City. I used it every day for two weeks and took several hundred shots. The result? Last Saturday (the last day of the return period), I returned it. I was very disappointed.

I have no doubt that the S70 will be a good camera for many people. For me, however, it was just another example of Sony's form over substance mentality (and I am a big Sony fan).

The issues that caused me the most concern and disappointment included:

1. Verrrrrrry sloooooow. The shutter lag is very slow even if you prefocus. I have tried the Nikon 990, the Oly 3030 and the Sony is glacially slow by comparison. Either you have to have a crystal ball or you will miss lots of pictures waiting on the camera. A burst mode would have helped on this, but...

2. No burst mode. How could Sony do this? You get one shot, then wait. Another shot, then wait. Either Sony forgot to include a RAM buffer or, more likely, they just didn't design the camera to take advantage of it. In this evolution of digicams, the absence of a burst mode (together with the slow record speed) makes the camera little more than a snap shot tool for fixed subjects.

3. The freeze on the LCD when focusing makes focusing on a moving object very unnatural.

4. No manual mode. Again, what was Sony thinking?

5. Proprietary flash only. This is typical Sony but it is still frustrating.

6. User interface: convoluted to say the least. Changing white balance settings outdoors (or changing most settings outdoors) requires use of the LCD which, in many cases, is unreadable. It also takes too many steps to change some of the basic settings.

7. Nonsenical metering. Why can't I use Aperture priority and Spot metering at the same time? Spot metering should be separate from the aperture and shutter priority modes. I am unaware of any other camera that has this limitation.

8. No telephoto lens. This is the problem with closed solutions of any kind. There is no tele lens available (or apparently planned).

9. The viewfinder. While I applaud Sony for including a viewfinder, I was very disappointed that it was so inaccurate (showing only about 80% of the frame).

10. Movie mode. I didn't buy the camera for this mode but once I had it, I was shocked to see that you cannot zoom in or out while taking a movie. This is really a shortcoming for Sony.

11. 8 mb Memory Stick??? That's just silly. Why would Sony include only an 8 Mb Memory Stick. I am not a Memory Stick fan (too slow and too limited in size) but I did not make my decision based on the MS technology. If everything else had been up to par, I would have gladly lived with the Memory stick. Its disadvantages are outweighed by the great battery life.

12. Picture quality. Good quality (but maybe a bit overexposed) but not as pleasing to my eye as either the Oly or the Nikon. Also, why are there no compression settings? This is a noticeable omission by Sony.

There were a few other minor issues, but overall I was disappointed in Sony's effort here. It is a nice snap shot camera but that is not how it has been positioned in the market. As a competitor to the Nikon 990 or Oly 3030, my experience was that it fell way short. Hopefully

Kindest regards,

Mark

 

[MK19401]

the absence of ISO control. This renders the great Sony lens much "slower" in lower light and limits the ability to get good action shots in many instances. The lack of ISO control together with the shutter lag and lack of burst modes combine to really limit this camera to point and shoot applications.

Kindest regards,

Mark

 

[Ulysses]

MK, sorry that your experience with the S70 turned out not to be the experience that you had hoped for. Interestingly, I will not be purchasing the S70, but I thought it might be good to review why some users will still consider it as a great option and alternative to the 990 or the 3030Z.

1. Verrrrrrry sloooooow. The shutter lag is very slow even if you
prefocus. I have tried the Nikon 990, the Oly 3030 and the Sony is
glacially slow by comparison. Either you have to have a crystal ball or
you will miss lots of pictures waiting on the camera. A burst mode would
have helped on this, but...

You may be correct that a burst mode would be preferable. However, many users are saying that it is all part of the timing learning curve, which you would have to learn with any digicam at this point. No digicam is instantaneous, and users are learning how to time things correctly with the S70. When you look at the numbers given in reviews such as the Imaging Resource, it is not really THAT much slower than the other digicams.

2. No burst mode. How could Sony do this? You get one shot, then wait.
Another shot, then wait. Either Sony forgot to include a RAM buffer or,
more likely, they just didn't design the camera to take advantage of it.
In this evolution of digicams, the absence of a burst mode (together with
the slow record speed) makes the camera little more than a snap shot tool
for fixed subjects.

See comments above. You may be correct in that the camera HAS the buffer but does not take advantage of it. Another thread in this forum alludes to a possible firmware or hardware upgrade of the S70, which may or may not mean a better buffer (my conclusion only, not what the post actually said).

3. The freeze on the LCD when focusing makes focusing on a moving object
very unnatural.

I thought that there was a mode that you could place the camera in so that you could more easily capture moving objects. I forget the name of the mode. I've also seen photos from other users where the moving objects were easily rendered without any problem.

4. No manual mode. Again, what was Sony thinking?

I think that this is a compromise that Sony made for a particular audience, which I'll address in a moment. You're obviously not part of that target audience.

5. Proprietary flash only. This is typical Sony but it is still
frustrating.

Only frustrating if you have other flashes already laying around or if you can want to find a relatively cheaper flash than the HVL-F1000 (Sony's proprietary flash unit). You can get a slave flash (some very good sites have been posted here). It is typical Sony, but it is also a very workable and affordable solution as the flash can be found online much lower than the suggested price.

6. User interface: convoluted to say the least. Changing white balance
settings outdoors (or changing most settings outdoors) requires use of
the LCD which, in many cases, is unreadable. It also takes too many steps
to change some of the basic settings.

Convolution is in the brain of the user.

Many users are talking about how fast they are able to maneuver through the menu system, especially if they have used Sony cameras before, as they all have similar menu setups. Some steps are a little out of place, but it seems to be not a problem for some others.

7. Nonsenical metering. Why can't I use Aperture priority and Spot
metering at the same time? Spot metering should be separate from the
aperture and shutter priority modes. I am unaware of any other camera
that has this limitation.

I'm not so sure about this one. I don't actually have the camera in hand. Maybe someone else can address this.

9. The viewfinder. While I applaud Sony for including a viewfinder, I
was very disappointed that it was so inaccurate (showing only about 80%
of the frame).

The 80% accurate viewfinder is about par for optical viewfinders. Only rarely do you find a viewfinder with even 90% accuracy -- they are out there, but for digicams this is typical. At least the viewfinder for the S70 is larger than most other cameras, allowing for easy viewing. Personally, I never use a viewfinder even on cameras that have them.

10. Movie mode. I didn't buy the camera for this mode but once I had
it, I was shocked to see that you cannot zoom in or out while taking a
movie. This is really a shortcoming for Sony.

That is an odd maneuver. Apparently, you could zoom on the original F505. I'm not sure why this was removed from the S70. Accidental? Firmware update coming, perhaps?

11. 8 mb Memory Stick??? That's just silly. Why would Sony include
only an 8 Mb Memory Stick. I am not a Memory Stick fan (too slow and too
limited in size) but I did not make my decision based on the MS
technology. If everything else had been up to par, I would have gladly
lived with the Memory stick. Its disadvantages are outweighed by the
great battery life.

A few points of dispute here.

While 8MB may indeed seem small, bottom line is that it really doesn't matter unless you want Sony to hand you a "gift" with the camera. What I mean by this is that you would need at least a 32MB card to be truly satisfied anyway. So the likelihood is that a 16MB card is just as likely to make you want to get more memory as the 8MB card. No way is Sony or any other manufacturer going to include a larger card than that. My point is that you'd be purchasing a larger Memory Stick anyway, and probably more than one. For example, I'd probably be getting two 64MB cards with my camera after assuring myself that the camera functions properly.

On the Memory Stick speed, it is a common mistake that the Memory Stick is "slower" than other memory formats. Here is some info available from a few websites that talk about the speed of their particular format:

Lexar Media 8X CF card writes at 1.2 MB/sec. Lexar's 8X CF card perform up
to 300% faster** than standard CompactFlash cards. - from Lexar Media web
site.

Our 320MB CompactFlash (Type II) is the latest, high capacity design
utilizing the same patented chip stacking technology found in our 128MB CF.
Both CompactFlash blasts through the performance barrier with 10x write
speed (1.5 MB/sec.) - from Simple Technology web site

Memory Stick Access Speed: Writing: Maximum 1.5MB/second; Standby: Maximum
2.45MB/sec [seems to operate at a 20mHZ clock speed] - from the Sony
Electronics, Inc. web site.

The MS seems to be at least as fast as the other formats. And this is before
instituting the Lexar controller technology that will produce even faster MS
in the future. Whether these figures hold up in the actual devices may be

another matter. It could be that the camera itself is for some reason not taking advantage of the speed. Or the conclusion you've arrived at might be influenced by some other factor in the camera's getting ready for the next shot. This speed thing is difficult to analyze.

There are many other reasons to view the Memory Stick as a format that will be here for quite some time. But this isn't a Memory Stick thread, so I'll move on.

12. Picture quality. Good quality (but maybe a bit overexposed) but not
as pleasing to my eye as either the Oly or the Nikon. Also, why are
there no compression settings? This is a noticeable omission by Sony.

Again, some find the picture quality results to be just the opposite. This is particularly so when you are viewing the entire picture versus just one segment of the image. You may already be doing that. So it comes down to personal preference. Many prefer the vivid color and color accuracy of the S70, while some find that the 990 or 3030Z are a bit muted and soft in focus. I guess this is all very subjective. It's a good thing we have so many options.

Interestingly, with regard to compression, users of the 990 and 3030Z complained that the original F505 was using overly aggressive compression. Now the S70 has file sizes that are often LARGER than the an equivalent shot taken with the 990 or 3030Z (see the Imaging Resource Comparometer for sizes). This often leads to even better quality images with regard to compression artifacts. Would you really WANT to compress your images even more, losing out on the fine quality of the image? You can please some of the people some of the time...

There were a few other minor issues, but overall I was disappointed in
Sony's effort here. It is a nice snap shot camera but that is not how it
has been positioned in the market. As a competitor to the Nikon 990 or
Oly 3030, my experience was that it fell way short.

Interestingly, many long-time users of the original F505 said that the S70 was a study in compromises. Compromises such as its body form factor, its optical viewfinder, its lack of manual mode while having plenty of other modes to satisfy most users.

IMO, the S70 has not been positioned as a direct competitor to the 990 or 3030 other than in the size of its CCD. But it is not a manual user's camera, and Sony hasn't marketed it as such. It is meant to be a VERY easy to use snapshot camera that users will have fun using. For example, Randy Rovang is a 990 user, I believe. While he initially had his reservations, he now says that the S70 is the camera of choice when he just wants to whip something out and take a good picture. The camer is consistent, fun to use, and has excellent quality.

So many users will consider it as a great option. Like I mentioned before, it's a good thing that there are just so many options available to users.

 

[Ulysses]

I don't have the screen up right now, but I was under the impression that the Sony S70 has a slightly faster lens than the 990 or the 3030, with lower aperture numbers producing an even brighter image.

For example, you may have seen some of my posts about the S70's night shots. These have all been at ISO 100, and they produce FAR less true noise than those shots with the 3030Z seen at Steve's Digicams. The noise recorded in that camera with a 4 second exposure is at least five times worse than the noise in the S70 shot taken at 8 seconds. Not sure why. It's the same CCD, but the S70 produces better results and color in this situation.

ISO control might be nice to have, academically, but I'm now of the conclusion that it is not needed in order to produce a better image.

As for the other reasons for the camera's speed, I can't debate you there. And I'm not looking to debate, really. I just thought I'd present the other side of the coin (after all, I don't even intend to get the S70 camera, but I do like its results).

All the best to you and your future purchase.

the absence of ISO control. This renders the great Sony lens much
"slower" in lower light and limits the ability to get good action shots
in many instances. The lack of ISO control together with the shutter lag
and lack of burst modes combine to really limit this camera to point and
shoot applications.

Kindest regards,

Mark

 

[Bryan Parker14915]

This is meant to be a POINT and SHOOT camera. You shouldn't complain that Pinto can't do 150 mph!!!

For several weeks I had been waiting anxiously for an S70. Two weeks
ago, I finally found one at a local Circuit City. I used it every day
for two weeks and took several hundred shots. The result? Last Saturday
(the last day of the return period), I returned it. I was very
disappointed.

I have no doubt that the S70 will be a good camera for many people. For
me, however, it was just another example of Sony's form over substance
mentality (and I am a big Sony fan).

The issues that caused me the most concern and disappointment included:

1. Verrrrrrry sloooooow. The shutter lag is very slow even if you
prefocus. I have tried the Nikon 990, the Oly 3030 and the Sony is
glacially slow by comparison. Either you have to have a crystal ball or
you will miss lots of pictures waiting on the camera. A burst mode would
have helped on this, but...

2. No burst mode. How could Sony do this? You get one shot, then wait.
Another shot, then wait. Either Sony forgot to include a RAM buffer or,
more likely, they just didn't design the camera to take advantage of it.
In this evolution of digicams, the absence of a burst mode (together with
the slow record speed) makes the camera little more than a snap shot tool
for fixed subjects.

3. The freeze on the LCD when focusing makes focusing on a moving object
very unnatural.

4. No manual mode. Again, what was Sony thinking?

5. Proprietary flash only. This is typical Sony but it is still
frustrating.

6. User interface: convoluted to say the least. Changing white balance
settings outdoors (or changing most settings outdoors) requires use of
the LCD which, in many cases, is unreadable. It also takes too many steps
to change some of the basic settings.

7. Nonsenical metering. Why can't I use Aperture priority and Spot
metering at the same time? Spot metering should be separate from the
aperture and shutter priority modes. I am unaware of any other camera
that has this limitation.

8. No telephoto lens. This is the problem with closed solutions of any
kind. There is no tele lens available (or apparently planned).

9. The viewfinder. While I applaud Sony for including a viewfinder, I
was very disappointed that it was so inaccurate (showing only about 80%
of the frame).

10. Movie mode. I didn't buy the camera for this mode but once I had
it, I was shocked to see that you cannot zoom in or out while taking a
movie. This is really a shortcoming for Sony.

11. 8 mb Memory Stick??? That's just silly. Why would Sony include
only an 8 Mb Memory Stick. I am not a Memory Stick fan (too slow and too
limited in size) but I did not make my decision based on the MS
technology. If everything else had been up to par, I would have gladly
lived with the Memory stick. Its disadvantages are outweighed by the
great battery life.

12. Picture quality. Good quality (but maybe a bit overexposed) but not
as pleasing to my eye as either the Oly or the Nikon. Also, why are
there no compression settings? This is a noticeable omission by Sony.

There were a few other minor issues, but overall I was disappointed in
Sony's effort here. It is a nice snap shot camera but that is not how it
has been positioned in the market. As a competitor to the Nikon 990 or
Oly 3030, my experience was that it fell way short. Hopefully

Kindest regards,

Mark

 

[Robert MacLellan]

If you are comparing the S70 to a D1 there is no wonder you are diappointed with certain things.

 

[MK19401]

Hi Robert:

Yes, I have a D1. I also have a need for a more compact Digicam for certain applications. That is why I tried the S70 (I am not a Nikon fanatic and am willing to use the best tool regardless of the brand).

I was not comparing the S70 to the D1. That would be an unfair comparison. I was comparing it to the Oly 3030 and the Nikon 990. At least one user has suggested that this is also an unfair comparison as the Sony was just intended to be a point and shoot (a "Pinto" as he called it). I don't agree that Sony was attempting to position this product below the Nikon 990 and the Oly 3030.

Kindest regards,

Mark

If you are comparing the S70 to a D1 there is no wonder you are
diappointed with certain things.

 

[misha]

This is meant to be a POINT and SHOOT camera. You shouldn't complain that
Pinto can't do 150 mph!!!

This could be a valid argument if it cost under $400 and was a P&S camera that you bought in addition to another camera with full manual control, but its price is comparable to the Nikon and Olympus (a bit lower), so that option is unlikely. MK gave reasons for his disappointment, which mostly concern controls/features limitations (and, not owning the camera, I don't know if his observations are fully correct). If these points are not essential to someone, he/she will not be deterred by these observations.

Misha

 

[MK19401]

Ulysses:

Thanks for your well thought out response. I wanted to clarify a couple of issues below:

You may be correct that a burst mode would be preferable. However, many
users are saying that it is all part of the timing learning curve, which
you would have to learn with any digicam at this point. No digicam is
instantaneous, and users are learning how to time things correctly with
the S70. When you look at the numbers given in reviews such as the
Imaging Resource, it is not really THAT much slower than the other
digicams.

The problem with the speed is that, absent a burst mode, you cannot get many shots at all. You have to be able to predict movement 2 seconds in advance in many instances. With a burst mode, you can fire off s few frames and then see which one got the shot you wanted. For action shots, this is a necessity. For portraiture and family pics, this is probably unneeded.

I thought that there was a mode that you could place the camera in so
that you could more easily capture moving objects. I forget the name of
the mode. I've also seen photos from other users where the moving objects
were easily rendered without any problem.

I did not see any mode which eliminated the freezing of the image on the LCD during focusing (other than manual focusing by estimating distance, the results of which were not pleasing).

I think that this is a compromise that Sony made for a particular
audience, which I'll address in a moment. You're obviously not part of
that target audience.

Very true on both counts.

On the Memory Stick speed, it is a common mistake that the Memory Stick
is "slower" than other memory formats. Here is some info available from a
few websites that talk about the speed of their particular format...

In real world usage, I found the MS to be much slower. Perhaps its was the camera that was slower but it would be impossible to say for sure. In either case, the time between shots (and again the absence of the burst mode) limited the camera's usefulness in many situations.

So many users will consider it as a great option. Like I mentioned
before, it's a good thing that there are just so many options available
to users.

I agree with you on this point in all respects.

On the issue of adjustable ISO (discussed in my supplemental comments later in the thread), I fear you may have missed my concern. The Sony may indeed have a larger maximum aperture value (by 1/2 stop) but that value must be considered in the context of its fixed 100 ISO. This reduces the user's flexibility in certain situations where they might desire more light (low light shots) or a faster shutter speed (action shots). In these instances, in most 3.3 Mp cameras, the user is given the choice of increasing the ISO (the gain) in exchange for some added graininess in the image. The Sony does not even offer this as a choice which I see as a failing of the camera's feature set.

No camera is perfect, but, unless we openly discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses, the companies will not know what the marketplace desires in the next evolution.

Kindest regards,

Mark

 

[Hugo Martinez]

I don't agree that Sony was attempting to position this
product below the Nikon 990 and the Oly 3030.

Please explain. The Sony S70 lists for about $200 less than either the 990 or 3030.

You might consider researching the Epson 3000z ( http://www.epson.com/cam_scan/cameras/photopc3000z/index.html ). I am leaning more towards this camera as I shoot mostly TIF and thus need CF's greater capacity. Gives a bit more control, is reputed to have a better menu and can use generic flash units through a hot shoe. Also seems not to have inherited the 850z's infamous shutter lag.

I'm waiting for reviews.

Hugo
http://hugomartinez.com

 

[Tony Reynolds]

Mark:

A very interesting review from a "users" standpoint. I too have been interested in the S70 as a replacement for my Agfa 1680. I have been looking at the 990, but am somewhat put-off by much of the neghative issues surrounding the camera.

If the Sony is truely slow in shot-to-shot perfomance, than I will not be able to consider it. I went through this with the Agfas, first the 1280, and then the 1680. No problem when taking senic shots, but people, forget it! You have to tell everyone to hold still for 8-14 seconds while the camera saves the last shot.

I do recall though, that the Sony, supposedly because of having a single chip system does not need a buffer. This could be marketing-speak for "we didn't wnat to spend the buck to put it in, so how to we make it a feature".

I also recall that if the camera is placed in Panorama mode (or maybe it's landscape, sorry I don't own one of these, remember?), that the shutter lag is reduced to a very respectable 0.22 seconds. I could live with that.

But, and we need some more user confirmation on this, if the time between shots is more than 2 or 3 seconds, forget it.

Tony

 

[Ulysses]

Misha - Good points. And once a person has made his/her own honest evaluation, the goal should certainly not be to convince him to go back out and purchase the camera again. After all, MK has already returned his S70.

I look at the S70 not so much as a direct competitor to the 990 and 3030 as a good alternative to these. This is not because of price point, but more because of advertised feature set. Having said that, I can see why a user with his experience would feel that the camera comes up short in the areas he outlined.

There are pros and cons to be considered with all of these. For most users, $700 or more is a LOT of money, and it can't be spent without total satisfaction.

This could be a valid argument if it cost under $400 and was a P&S camera
that you bought in addition to another camera with full manual control,
but its price is comparable to the Nikon and Olympus (a bit lower), so
that option is unlikely. MK gave reasons for his disappointment, which
mostly concern controls/features limitations (and, not owning the camera,
I don't know if his observations are fully correct). If these points are
not essential to someone, he/she will not be deterred by these
observations.

Misha

 

[Robert Leigh]

Mark,

Just to emphasize the different strokes for differnt folks thing, the FD-95 I have on order supposedly takes up to 20 seconds between shots when using the MS and floppy adapter. Makes the S70 seem super fast by comparison, but I'm willing to live with the 20 seconds because of other features I want. A weed is a plant growing in the wrong place. Likewise, what's good or bad abut a product often depends on the needs of the user.

Rodger

 

[Ulysses]

MK - You've presented some very good points yourself, and you explain why these are shortcomings for you in an easy-to-understand manner. That's why I've enjoyed this thread you brought up.

The problem with the speed is that, absent a burst mode, you cannot get
many shots at all. You have to be able to predict movement 2 seconds in
advance in many instances.

Yes, admittedly, it would have been nice to have a burst mode to take advantage of, particularly if your primary targets are going to be in sports, animals & nature, or active children. The burst mode would present opportunities rather than being a hindrance in these instances. Maybe in later models or updates....

On the issue of adjustable ISO (discussed in my supplemental comments
later in the thread), I fear you may have missed my concern. The Sony
may indeed have a larger maximum aperture value (by 1/2 stop) but that
value must be considered in the context of its fixed 100 ISO.

It may be that as I'm learning more of the finer points of photography that I oversimplified myself. In principle, it would be great to have the total user control that is offered by a camera like the 3030Z. In fact, I at first thought that this would be a problem with the Cyber-shot line.

Then I started comparing images such as the ones below:

Olympus 3030Z

Steve's Digicams (append the "G" at the end of the address)
Exposure: 4 seconds, F-stop: 2.8, ISO speed: 100
http://www.steves-digicams.com/c3030/samples/P4130079.JP

Olympus 3030Z

Steve's Digicams (append the "G" at the end of the address)
Exposure: 4 seconds, F-stop: 5.6, ISO speed: 400

Sony S70

Niklas from Sweden (append the "G" at the end of the address)
Exposure: 8 seconds, F-stop: 2.0, ISO speed: 100
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-53962/n/2.jp

The final (?) conclusion that I drew was that higher ISO does not necessarily produce what the user might want - at least not in this level of camera. The Sony can compensate in some situations with a higher ISO, but the user may or may not be aware of this situation. And with an ISO of 100, the S70 is able to keep the noise down to a minimum while maximizing the detail and color available, even though the exposure is twice the length of the 3030Z.

I guess my question is: User-selectable ISO is nice, but under what circumstances would we want it, given the above mentioned images? I'm asking so as to learn more about this aspect of digital photography, really.

No camera is perfect, but, unless we openly discuss the relative
strengths and weaknesses, the companies will not know what the
marketplace desires in the next evolution.

Total agreement. Sony as well as all others need to know how to fit their cameras to our optimal needs. There are so many different users with different shooting environments, that our demands must certainly be difficult to meet.

Keep the good comments coming.

All the best for you and your future purchase.

 

[Ulysses]

Sorry about that. Accidentally left the "G" in one link.

REALLY didn't mean to do that, folks. Just hit the STOP button and look at the link at your own leisure.

Again, my apologies.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/c3030/samples/P4130075.JP

 

[Ulysses]

I'm trying to avoid folks pulling up a VERY large image link that got accidentally posted in the message immediately below this one. I'm reposting it, but with the link incomplete so that you can read the message without waiting for the picture to download. Sorry about the wasted bandwidth on that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MK - You've presented some very good points yourself, and you explain why these are shortcomings for you in an easy-to-understand manner. That's why I've enjoyed this thread you brought up.

The problem with the speed is that, absent a burst mode, you cannot get
many shots at all. You have to be able to predict movement 2 seconds in
advance in many instances.

Yes, admittedly, it would have been nice to have a burst mode to take advantage of, particularly if your primary targets are going to be in sports, animals & nature, or active children. The burst mode would present opportunities rather than being a hindrance in these instances. Maybe in later models or updates....

On the issue of adjustable ISO (discussed in my supplemental comments
later in the thread), I fear you may have missed my concern. The Sony
may indeed have a larger maximum aperture value (by 1/2 stop) but that
value must be considered in the context of its fixed 100 ISO.

It may be that as I'm learning more of the finer points of photography that I oversimplified myself. In principle, it would be great to have the total user control that is offered by a camera like the 3030Z. In fact, I at first thought that this would be a problem with the Cyber-shot line.

Then I started comparing images such as the ones below:

Olympus 3030Z

Steve's Digicams (append the "G" at the end of the address)
Exposure: 4 seconds, F-stop: 2.8, ISO speed: 100
http://www.steves-digicams.com/c3030/samples/P4130079.JP

Olympus 3030Z

Steve's Digicams (append the "G" at the end of the address)
Exposure: 4 seconds, F-stop: 5.6, ISO speed: 400
http://www.steves-digicams.com/c3030/samples/P4130075.JP

Sony S70

Niklas from Sweden (append the "G" at the end of the address)
Exposure: 8 seconds, F-stop: 2.0, ISO speed: 100
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-53962/n/2.jp

The final (?) conclusion that I drew was that higher ISO does not necessarily produce what the user might want - at least not in this level of camera. The Sony can compensate in some situations with a higher ISO, but the user may or may not be aware of this situation. And with an ISO of 100, the S70 is able to keep the noise down to a minimum while maximizing the detail and color available, even though the exposure is twice the length of the 3030Z.

I guess my question is: User-selectable ISO is nice, but under what circumstances would we want it, given the above mentioned images? I'm asking so as to learn more about this aspect of digital photography, really.

No camera is perfect, but, unless we openly discuss the relative
strengths and weaknesses, the companies will not know what the
marketplace desires in the next evolution.

Total agreement. Sony as well as all others need to know how to fit their cameras to our optimal needs. There are so many different users with different shooting environments, that our demands must certainly be difficult to meet.

Keep the good comments coming.

All the best for you and your future purchase.

 

[Gerrit Pang]

Tony,
It's "panfocus" mode not panorama.

This is meant as a polite correction, we don't want to start the rumour about this camera having a "panorama" mode.

Mark:

A very interesting review from a "users" standpoint. I too have been
interested in the S70 as a replacement for my Agfa 1680. I have been
looking at the 990, but am somewhat put-off by much of the neghative
issues surrounding the camera.

If the Sony is truely slow in shot-to-shot perfomance, than I will not be
able to consider it. I went through this with the Agfas, first the 1280,
and then the 1680. No problem when taking senic shots, but people, forget
it! You have to tell everyone to hold still for 8-14 seconds while the
camera saves the last shot.

I do recall though, that the Sony, supposedly because of having a single
chip system does not need a buffer. This could be marketing-speak for "we
didn't wnat to spend the buck to put it in, so how to we make it a
feature".

I also recall that if the camera is placed in Panorama mode (or maybe
it's landscape, sorry I don't own one of these, remember?), that the
shutter lag is reduced to a very respectable 0.22 seconds. I could live
with that.

But, and we need some more user confirmation on this, if the time between
shots is more than 2 or 3 seconds, forget it.

Tony

 

[Horst Heppel]

Mark,

I have the S70 for about a week now and I'm really happy with the results I'm able to achieve.

A few of the limitations you've been mentioning I was aware about already when I bought the cam.

Nevertheless, the lens and the overall excellent colour definition and contrast balance (12bit D/A) made the decision.

I agree, Sony missed to present a top notch cam. They only were able to give us a tool for excellent results under restricted conditions.

This is even worse, since all the necessary potential is already available in the camera. The right implementation would have cost not one dollar more.

Yes, the spotmetering restriction is unbelievable, its a bad wit.

Shows, that Sony still has a lot to learn , before they can really be seen as a camera company. More than unbelievable, since the F505 has a wonderful functioning spot meter implementation.

As to the ISO speed point, have a look at my former postings "S70 secrets".

I believe they explain some connections: low light shots and twilight shots with boosted ISO is possible, but with the restriction of only 1/30 sec.
Makes action shots a gambling, of course.

Also here, only a simple firmware modification could have given the user the ISO control.

Who knows, how the marketing guys have influenced the technicians.

Yes, your last point I can fully support.
All that marketing bullshit is at our cost and time.

Regards

Horst

Thanks for your well thought out response. I wanted to clarify a couple
of issues below:

You may be correct that a burst mode would be preferable. However, many
users are saying that it is all part of the timing learning curve, which
you would have to learn with any digicam at this point. No digicam is
instantaneous, and users are learning how to time things correctly with
the S70. When you look at the numbers given in reviews such as the
Imaging Resource, it is not really THAT much slower than the other
digicams.

The problem with the speed is that, absent a burst mode, you cannot get
many shots at all. You have to be able to predict movement 2 seconds in
advance in many instances. With a burst mode, you can fire off s few
frames and then see which one got the shot you wanted. For action shots,
this is a necessity. For portraiture and family pics, this is probably
unneeded.

I thought that there was a mode that you could place the camera in so
that you could more easily capture moving objects. I forget the name of
the mode. I've also seen photos from other users where the moving objects
were easily rendered without any problem.

I did not see any mode which eliminated the freezing of the image on the
LCD during focusing (other than manual focusing by estimating distance,
the results of which were not pleasing).

I think that this is a compromise that Sony made for a particular
audience, which I'll address in a moment. You're obviously not part of
that target audience.

Very true on both counts.

On the Memory Stick speed, it is a common mistake that the Memory Stick
is "slower" than other memory formats. Here is some info available from a
few websites that talk about the speed of their particular format...

In real world usage, I found the MS to be much slower. Perhaps its was
the camera that was slower but it would be impossible to say for sure.
In either case, the time between shots (and again the absence of the
burst mode) limited the camera's usefulness in many situations.

So many users will consider it as a great option. Like I mentioned
before, it's a good thing that there are just so many options available
to users.

I agree with you on this point in all respects.

On the issue of adjustable ISO (discussed in my supplemental comments
later in the thread), I fear you may have missed my concern. The Sony
may indeed have a larger maximum aperture value (by 1/2 stop) but that
value must be considered in the context of its fixed 100 ISO. This
reduces the user's flexibility in certain situations where they might
desire more light (low light shots) or a faster shutter speed (action
shots). In these instances, in most 3.3 Mp cameras, the user is given
the choice of increasing the ISO (the gain) in exchange for some added
graininess in the image. The Sony does not even offer this as a choice
which I see as a failing of the camera's feature set.

No camera is perfect, but, unless we openly discuss the relative
strengths and weaknesses, the companies will not know what the
marketplace desires in the next evolution.

Kindest regards,

Mark

 

[Dentist]

I hope they all will develop digital cameras with interchangeable lenses like SLRs.
(small interchangeable lenses).

All thing you expect can be done by current technology. May be taking the price $200 would be the cost. Anyway you got D1. Have nice shotings.
I hope your criitics will go to the right target.

For several weeks I had been waiting anxiously for an S70. Two weeks
ago, I finally found one at a local Circuit City. I used it every day
for two weeks and took several hundred shots. The result? Last Saturday
(the last day of the return period), I returned it. I was very
disappointed.

I have no doubt that the S70 will be a good camera for many people. For
me, however, it was just another example of Sony's form over substance
mentality (and I am a big Sony fan).

The issues that caused me the most concern and disappointment included:

1. Verrrrrrry sloooooow. The shutter lag is very slow even if you
prefocus. I have tried the Nikon 990, the Oly 3030 and the Sony is
glacially slow by comparison. Either you have to have a crystal ball or
you will miss lots of pictures waiting on the camera. A burst mode would
have helped on this, but...

2. No burst mode. How could Sony do this? You get one shot, then wait.
Another shot, then wait. Either Sony forgot to include a RAM buffer or,
more likely, they just didn't design the camera to take advantage of it.
In this evolution of digicams, the absence of a burst mode (together with
the slow record speed) makes the camera little more than a snap shot tool
for fixed subjects.

3. The freeze on the LCD when focusing makes focusing on a moving object
very unnatural.

4. No manual mode. Again, what was Sony thinking?

5. Proprietary flash only. This is typical Sony but it is still
frustrating.

6. User interface: convoluted to say the least. Changing white balance
settings outdoors (or changing most settings outdoors) requires use of
the LCD which, in many cases, is unreadable. It also takes too many steps
to change some of the basic settings.

7. Nonsenical metering. Why can't I use Aperture priority and Spot
metering at the same time? Spot metering should be separate from the
aperture and shutter priority modes. I am unaware of any other camera
that has this limitation.

8. No telephoto lens. This is the problem with closed solutions of any
kind. There is no tele lens available (or apparently planned).

9. The viewfinder. While I applaud Sony for including a viewfinder, I
was very disappointed that it was so inaccurate (showing only about 80%
of the frame).

10. Movie mode. I didn't buy the camera for this mode but once I had
it, I was shocked to see that you cannot zoom in or out while taking a
movie. This is really a shortcoming for Sony.

11. 8 mb Memory Stick??? That's just silly. Why would Sony include
only an 8 Mb Memory Stick. I am not a Memory Stick fan (too slow and too
limited in size) but I did not make my decision based on the MS
technology. If everything else had been up to par, I would have gladly
lived with the Memory stick. Its disadvantages are outweighed by the
great battery life.

12. Picture quality. Good quality (but maybe a bit overexposed) but not
as pleasing to my eye as either the Oly or the Nikon. Also, why are
there no compression settings? This is a noticeable omission by Sony.

There were a few other minor issues, but overall I was disappointed in
Sony's effort here. It is a nice snap shot camera but that is not how it
has been positioned in the market. As a competitor to the Nikon 990 or
Oly 3030, my experience was that it fell way short. Hopefully

Kindest regards,

Mark

 

[Hugo Martinez]

MK,

Forget I ever mentioned the Epson 3000z. I just discovered that the damn thing takes 32 seconds to process a TIF!!! Makes my Fuji 2900 look like a speed demon at approx. 7 seconds.

If anyone still cares, go to:

http://support.epson.com/hardware/camera/phpc3z/documentation.html

The "Product Information Guide" is a PDF document that is really more like a manual. Very helpful.

Hugo
http://hugomartinez.com