Why doesn't anyone make small photo-oriented ILC cameras anymore?

[ahaslett]

If you are around young people like my children and older grandkids and their friends you soon realise the world has moved on from traditional photography.

children don't buy multi thousand $$$$ camera systems

and if action cams can do direct upload to social media then it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that any camera can do that

it's some minor hardware and an app

people keep banging on about old people on here (as offensive as that is) and how they're stuck in the past, but when you look at the facts you can't help but notice a thriving market for premium compacts, and numerous social media videos asking for updated versions

imo it's the view that there's no demand for premium compacts that is clearly outdated

Do you any data on their market share by value? That would be interesting.

A

 

[GrahamB52]

That's why, I caught up with a mate yesterday that just got back from a great European trip, he used to carry a camera once, now he has the latest Samsung Phone and he was showing me his photos, they looked great and the phone took care of all of the editing with it's computational Automated features,

People these days only really check photos out on phones so they can't see the difference and scratch their heads when they see punters like all of us with our camera gear

Anyway we all like real cameras that's why we are all still here and we all know that real cameras are much better than phones, I say hang in there and small Cameras will return along with real photography (not that it's gone) just like the LP record

In the interim I bought a TG-7 and am very happy because it's a small camera with benefits

I’ve always wondered why there isn’t a ‘proper’ camera with phone like computational automated results. Whatever camera I use, I need to modify in post to get the result to suit my taste (perhaps it’s my lack of skill with a ‘real’ camera) where my iPhone takes HDR type shots SOOC.

 

[Sonyshine]

If you are around young people like my children and older grandkids and their friends you soon realise the world has moved on from traditional photography.

children don't buy multi thousand $$$$ camera systems

Children in my case are grown ups in 20 to 40 age. Old enough to produce grandchildren, some of whom are in late teens.

and if action cams can do direct upload to social media then it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that any camera can do that

it's some minor hardware and an app

people keep banging on about old people on here (as offensive as that is)

Why is being old ( I am 66 ) offensive? I am happy being old.

and how they're stuck in the past, but when you look at the facts you can't help but notice a thriving market for premium compacts, and numerous social media videos asking for updated versions

imo it's the view that there's no demand for premium compacts that is clearly outdated

If enough demand was there I think someone would be making them?

--
Stupidity is far more fascinating than intelligence. Intelligence has its limits...

 

[gary0319]

If you are around young people like my children and older grandkids and their friends you soon realise the world has moved on from traditional photography.

children don't buy multi thousand $$$$ camera systems

Children in my case are grown ups in 20 to 40 age. Old enough to produce grandchildren, some of whom are in late teens.

and if action cams can do direct upload to social media then it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that any camera can do that

it's some minor hardware and an app

people keep banging on about old people on here (as offensive as that is)

Why is being old ( I am 66 ) offensive? I am happy being old.

and how they're stuck in the past, but when you look at the facts you can't help but notice a thriving market for premium compacts, and numerous social media videos asking for updated versions

imo it's the view that there's no demand for premium compacts that is clearly outdated

If enough demand was there I think someone would be making them?

With the already shrunk dedicated camera market, any expansion of an already downsized manufacturing capacity would have to be a dead certain sales winner….. and at a margin that is commensurate with the margins being realized by the full size models. The bottom line gets the final say…..always.

 

[macrophoto_markus]

MFT has to produce small cameras because that would be the only reason that would separate them from the competition. This is what made them market leaders a few years ago. And the market needs small camera because there is nothing like that these days. Since they make cameras as big as the competition that has FF sensors and the same price, they have absolutely no chance to survive. MFT producers must return to their origins, all MFT lovers are waiting for the sequels to the GM, GX, Pen, OM-D series, small cameras that can be taken anywhere, not huge bodies of the caliber of FF cameras.

MFT were market leaders because they were ahead of the competition in terms of features (and they were the only mirrorless cameras out at some point, so of course they were leading the market), doubt it was about size. Size of the body doesn't really matter, the lenses are much smaller (at least towards the longer focal length).

The OM5 is a tiny camera, already feels very cheap despite being quite expensive when it launched, if they made smaller cameras, they'd need to be the same price as the OM1 (II), or have terrible build quality, neither is a very good option. Also, none of the OM cameras are videocentric? They are all about stills.

 

[MarkAndrewsUK]

Its that list of musts you and others have that killed these small cameras.

I roll my eyes everytime I see a Schrödinger's Photographer berate camera makers, such as OM and Panasonic, for not releasing new bodies packed full of new innovations, but when they do release a new body that is larger and heavier to accommodate the new innovations and larger battery required to power those features and upgrades they then berate them for not making small bodies and say they don’t want all those new features.

Oh, and they also want the camera makers to put a lot of R&D into new cameras, but they also want the new cameras to be cheap.

 

[pipituni]

Oh, and they also want the camera makers to put a lot of R&D into new cameras, but they also want the new cameras to be cheap.

show me a shred of evidence that confirms this

i won't hold my breath

 

[gary0319]

Oh, and they also want the camera makers to put a lot of R&D into new cameras, but they also want the new cameras to be cheap.

show me a shred of evidence that confirms this

i won't hold my breath

Just read the threads and comments on this forum and others when a compact camera is introduced at over $800. Plenty of shreds here.

 

[pipituni]

If enough demand was there I think someone would be making them?

Sony A6600 series? A7C series? Fuji X100, X-Txx, X-Sxx series, Ricoh GR series...

someone is making them and all of the above are well regarded and sought after

and most importantly, all of them have flagship sensor, AF and IBIS, the holy trinity of camera desirability

 

[pipituni]

Oh, and they also want the camera makers to put a lot of R&D into new cameras, but they also want the new cameras to be cheap.

show me a shred of evidence that confirms this

i won't hold my breath

Just read the threads and comments on this forum and others when a compact camera is introduced at over $800. Plenty of shreds here.

well most of you keep pointing out that the old fogeys on this forum aren't the target market so what do comments on here count?

and $800 for a hunk of plastic is different to $800 for something premium

i'd pay upwards of $1500 for a quality compact

i wouldn't pay any more than $350 for an E-P7

 

[pipituni]

If you are around young people like my children and older grandkids and their friends you soon realise the world has moved on from traditional photography.

children don't buy multi thousand $$$$ camera systems

and if action cams can do direct upload to social media then it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that any camera can do that

it's some minor hardware and an app

people keep banging on about old people on here (as offensive as that is) and how they're stuck in the past, but when you look at the facts you can't help but notice a thriving market for premium compacts, and numerous social media videos asking for updated versions

imo it's the view that there's no demand for premium compacts that is clearly outdated

Do you any data on their market share by value? That would be interesting.

A

unfortunately not. and yes it would be interesting

 

[gary0319]

Oh, and they also want the camera makers to put a lot of R&D into new cameras, but they also want the new cameras to be cheap.

show me a shred of evidence that confirms this

i won't hold my breath

Just read the threads and comments on this forum and others when a compact camera is introduced at over $800. Plenty of shreds here.

well most of you keep pointing out that the old fogeys on this forum aren't the target market so what do comments on here count?

and $800 for a hunk of plastic is different to $800 for something premium

i'd pay upwards of $1500 for a quality compact

i wouldn't pay any more than $350 for an E-P7

Your right, this is really the wrong forum for your post. Too many already petrified souls here, so it just goes for naught.

But to your point, I can hear it now.. "Why would anyone pay $1500 for a camera with a puny m43 sensor when for a few bucks more one can get a camera with a better sensor from a company not on life support?"

 

[pipituni]

But to your point, I can hear it now.. "Why would anyone pay $1500 for a camera with a puny m43 sensor when for a few bucks more one can get a camera with a better sensor from a company not on life support?"

that's your point, not mine

the reason i'd pay for a premium m43 body is to use the compact m43 lenses

if that's your opinion you're in the wrong part of the forum

 

[gary0319]

But to your point, I can hear it now.. "Why would anyone pay $1500 for a camera with a puny m43 sensor when for a few bucks more one can get a camera with a better sensor from a company not on life support?"

that's your point, not mine

the reason i'd pay for a premium m43 body is to use the compact m43 lenses

if that's your opinion you're in the wrong part of the forum

That's not my opinion (hence the " " marks), in fact I would pay the premium price, too. But that would make exactly two of us. My point is that we have all gone down this small camera/high spec road before and it always turn out the same......... no sale.

 

[WilyKit]

If you are around young people like my children and older grandkids and their friends you soon realise the world has moved on from traditional photography.

children don't buy multi thousand $$$$ camera systems

and if action cams can do direct upload to social media then it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that any camera can do that

it's some minor hardware and an app

people keep banging on about old people on here (as offensive as that is) and how they're stuck in the past, but when you look at the facts you can't help but notice a thriving market for premium compacts, and numerous social media videos asking for updated versions

imo it's the view that there's no demand for premium compacts that is clearly outdated

Yes, it's absolutely ridiculous. It has NEVER been commonplace to carry a camera with you everywhere you go. It has always been reserved mainly to special events and trips. There were never many people going around carrying cameras with them everywhere, at any point in time. Absolutely nothing is different today compared to 40 or 30 years ago, with regards to how common camera usage is. People try to make it seem like once upon a time the camera market was full of "enthusiasts" and "amateurs" buying all kinds of cameras but now it has died down. No, that's just a lie. The vast majority of people bought small, small sensor, fixed lens film cameras, and Olympus was a top choice back then. "Bridge cameras"? Large sensor cameras? Come on... That was NEVER, EVER common, hardly anyone other than professionals or hard core "enthusiasts" (with a LOT of money to spare) used large sensor cameras, large cameras, or simply cameras more sophisticated than "point and shoot" cameras.

Nowadays the camera market is MUCH MUCH more diverse than it was in the 70s, 80s, 90s, with different kinds of cameras available to us "common people", including types of cameras that most people could only dream of being able to afford back then.

So now, yes, all of us have "a camera" with us in a "smartphone", but clueless people think "omg I have a smartphone with a 1 inch sensor it's way better than cameras of yesteryear", no, it's not. Those lenses in those smartphones, as awesome as they may be, are incredibly limited by physical factors, with INSANE amount of vignetting for example, which is of course automatically compensated by software. So you're not getting a world of difference compared to a fine camera with a 1/1.7 inch sensor which has a zoom lens that goes from "24 to 120 mm equivalent", and the flare resistance and overall performance (flare, ghosting, contrast, edge to edge sharpness, etc.) of the proper lens of the "real camera" which isn't super limited by physical factors far exceeds the "smartphone camera". I enjoy having a nice smartphone with 4 different "cameras" including one with a 1 inch sensor and a "Leica lens", but it's an absolute joke compared to a nice little pocketable camera from 15 years ago, I don't pretend the smartphone is better or even as good, it's absolutely not nearly as good.

I'm one of the many people who enjoy having a truly pocketable, proper camera with a zoom lens, I think it's wonderful, it gives me so much freedom not having to carry anything with me other than the camera in my pocket. It matters to me, especially in certain events where you just can't "stick out". It matters to a woman to not look like a super awkward geek around people in certain situations where carrying a bag or a pouch with you is just terribly weird and out of place, and I don't imagine it being much different if at all to men either. I don't MIND sticking out, I don't have self confidence issues, but it's detrimental to actually getting good results, that's my point. So yeah, and I absolutely know that there are many people like me who love PROPER cameras they can carry in their pants' pocket. And to those who say "lint omg", I just put it in a pouch with a drawstring which hardly adds to the depth, no problem..

 

[WilyKit]

ehm to clarify, I wasn't saying "small sensor film cameras" haha, meant small sensor cameras, small film cameras, etc.

 

[Regor250]

Because, unfortunately, this amounts to a point-and-shoot and that market is going the way of the Dodo bird like it or not.

 

[the bluesman]

Because, unfortunately, this amounts to a point-and-shoot and that market is going the way of the Dodo bird like it or not.

Do Dodo's fly south??

 

[yslee2]

children don't buy multi thousand $$$$ camera systems

They'd still buy a dedicated camera if they were great to use post-capture. There's a reason why the cameras I mentioned get sales, and growing sales in a demographic that has room to grow.

and if action cams can do direct upload to social media then it's not a stretch of the imagination to realise that any camera can do that

it's some minor hardware and an app

That's why it's so infuirating to see the Japanese makers being so incompetent about it. If the Chinese upstarts can do it, the Japanese have no reason not to.

 

[mmartel]

It just failed, for several major companies. Nikon also had the "Nikon 1" series, with J1 to J5, very small cameras, very nice, and very capable lenses like the 10-30mm VR PD-Zoom, which although is a relatively "slow lens", has remarkably good quality. A quite small and light combination. But the problem? It's not "pocketable". The "just barely" pocketable (I personally don't consider 4 CM depth pocketable, 3 CM is) Sony RX100 series with a fixed lens is obviously very successful. Some other fixed lens cameras are also relatively successful, surprisingly even Fuji's X100 series with a prime lens, definitely not "pocketable" cameras but still quite small and lightweight and "premium feeling" and fun to use, and of course the Ricoh GR series, cameras which ARE "pretty pocketable" (3.3 CM depth for example), so people really like that.

You're just not going to get cameras with such depth if it's an ILC system, and most people don't WANT to switch between lenses. Many people buy a "kit" and stay with that one "kit lens". Some good deals can be found for Olympus, Panasonic, Canon, Sony, and other ILC camera + lens kits, so people get that cheap deal but don't become "system enthusiasts", they just consider what they got "a camera", not "a kit" or a part of "a system". Then there are "enthusiasts" like most of us, some "professionals", and the few people who want a very small and lightweight ILC system. But you're just not going to get a "pocketable" camera. Even GM5 + 20mm is thicker than 6 CM. What's the point? It's not "weather sealed" either. Even Nikon 1 failed, and I'm telling you, J5 + some very nice zoom and prime lenses is very fun. Only a few lenses in the system, but they did a great job, and it still failed.

What I think is that nowadays we want reliability on top of everything, and we're not getting it. I want some proper dust and water resistance. Some. It's mainly smartphones that offer that. Almost all small camera offerings have none of that, some very very low quality cameras like TG-7 do (purple fringing from hell, flare extravaganza, soft image), the fine ones are "premium" priced and almost always not cameras you can carry in your pocket. Pocketable ILC is not going to happen. Fixed lens cameras, yeah maybe there's still hope, but I don't see it becoming common any time soon.

I just wanted to commend you for a such a thorough, on-the-money, totally-nailed-it answer.

- Former Nikon 1 owner/user (J3 + J5) [well, and Nikon DX, as well]