Why does the 1D use a mechanical shutter?

So I will get to the actual point!!! I have damaged the shutter
curain whilst trying to clean the CMOS. If it were a normal film
camera ,all the shots would be overexposed, but the fact that i get
perfect exposure with a damaged shutter made me doubt as to what
extent the shutter curain is important. I have a fixation of
having a clean CMOS, I even used about 3 bars of compressor
pressure to do it! Yet when dust combines with moisture the cmos
becomes smudged and this cannot be solved by blowing 20 bars of
pressure onto the cmos. I do need a chemical and appropriate cmos
cloth to clean it. I also tried to dismantle the camera, but
having bought it a couple of days ago I did not want to void the
guarantee.
If your CMOS sensor has a rolling electronic shutter and your mechanical shutter is indeed working properly, then you should get some distortion when photographing fast-moving objects:

http://www.photonfocus.com/pdf/cmos_git.pdf

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
If your CMOS sensor has a rolling electronic shutter and your
mechanical shutter is indeed working properly, then you should get
some distortion when photographing fast-moving objects:

http://www.photonfocus.com/pdf/cmos_git.pdf
Actually, if the 1/4000th is implemented using a traditional dual-curtain focal-plane shutter, you would expect to see a very similar distortion! (i.e. for shutter speeds greater than 1/200 the second curtain or blade is released before the first one has finished and so you get a "moving slit" for the exposure.)

And it looks like the D30 uses a mechanical shutter only:

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/tech/report/200007/report.html

EOS D30 employs the same type of shutter unit as that of EOS IX E. The shutter unit is electronically controlled and the speed range is 1/4000 to 30 seconds. The shutter operates in 1/2 stop increments normally, but can be modified to the 1/3 stop increment using a custom function.

Shutter Type: Mechanical shutter Speed range 1/4,000 to 30 sec., bulb X-sync speed 1/200 sec.

--
Erik
Free Windows JPEG comment editor
http://home.cfl.rr.com/maderik/edjpgcom
 
and with this, my G1 (and i am assuming the G2), has a "shutter
sound" setting where you can turn on and off a fake mechanical
shutter sound. :)
makes that stupid sound also(my wife has one). Luckily you can
turn it off.

-John
My Nikon CP880, as noisy as it was for zooming and focusing, was pretty much dead silent when taking the photo. Actually, if I was in a quiet place, I could usually detect two very slight clicks, but not mechanical.

For those few times when I wanted to take snapshots of people, it was always annoying, because they never knew when it was okay to stop smiling or turn away. It seems most people "need" some sort of sound to cue them that the photo is over.

Granted... it doesn't need to be as cheesy as the sound on a G1/2... but still.

--Keith
 
I suspect that this means the actual round trip time and not the
duration of exposure or else the shutter would not be able to keep
up with the 8fps shooting rate.
To keep up with 8FPS, wouldn't the round trip time just have to be
less than 1/8th of a second? Am I forgetting something?
Sorry... At that hour 1/125 and 1/12.5 became the same in my mind.

So, there's no problem having the mechanical shutter fire at each shot for 8FPS even with the 1/125 limitation.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
What do you mean by "mechanical shutter only"?
I'm just taking them at their word. I assume if they were using a hybrid-shutter like the 1D, they would:

1. Not put a bare "mechanical shutter" in the spec sheets

2. Not say that it's essentially the same shutter as the EOS IX E (an APS film camera.) As we've seen for the 1D, this would be overkill if there is also an electronic shutter.
I agree that it's using a mechanical shutter, but I couldn't find
any information on the interaction between the mechanism and any
electronic shuttering on the chip.
Now since Canon designed this sensor, they could have left out much of the electronic shutter control circuitry perhaps making it more of a full-frame design?

--
Erik
Free Windows JPEG comment editor
http://home.cfl.rr.com/maderik/edjpgcom
 
What do you mean by "mechanical shutter only"?
I'm just taking them at their word. I assume if they were using a
hybrid-shutter like the 1D, they would:

1. Not put a bare "mechanical shutter" in the spec sheets

2. Not say that it's essentially the same shutter as the EOS IX E
(an APS film camera.) As we've seen for the 1D, this would be
overkill if there is also an electronic shutter.
Every digital camera on the market (except possibly some Kodak digital SLRs) has both a mechanical shutter and an electronic one, so I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that the page mentions a mechanical shutter.
I agree that it's using a mechanical shutter, but I couldn't find
any information on the interaction between the mechanism and any
electronic shuttering on the chip.
Now since Canon designed this sensor, they could have left out much
of the electronic shutter control circuitry perhaps making it more
of a full-frame design?
What would it mean to make a full frame active pixel sensor?

The CCD terminology doesn't apply to active pixel sensors.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Every digital camera on the market (except possibly some Kodak
digital SLRs) has both a mechanical shutter and an electronic one,
so I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that
the page mentions a mechanical shutter.
No, I'm drawing the conclusion from the 2 points I listed: that it includes ONLY the mechanical shutter in the specs AND the mechanical shutter type listed seems to be too expensive if it's really not used for exposure control. Obviously, it's possible for one or both of these to be wrong, but it's highly suggestive in the absence of other facts.
The CCD terminology doesn't apply to active pixel sensors.
You are correct -- that was fuzzy thinking on my part and does not make any sense.

--
Erik
Free Windows JPEG comment editor
http://home.cfl.rr.com/maderik/edjpgcom
 
Interesting discussion going on here! I realise how little I understand. My point is, if one had to remove the mechanical shutter from the camera (seems to be the only way to confirm this dilemma) then the resulting photos on the D60 would be smeared and maybe even overexposed. I am trying to find out a web page which shows how to dismantle a D30 or D60 in order to get to the CMOS and shutter. I managed to solve the G2 crack problem and that went fine.

Thanks
What do you mean by "mechanical shutter only"?
I'm just taking them at their word. I assume if they were using a
hybrid-shutter like the 1D, they would:

1. Not put a bare "mechanical shutter" in the spec sheets

2. Not say that it's essentially the same shutter as the EOS IX E
(an APS film camera.) As we've seen for the 1D, this would be
overkill if there is also an electronic shutter.
Every digital camera on the market (except possibly some Kodak
digital SLRs) has both a mechanical shutter and an electronic one,
so I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that
the page mentions a mechanical shutter.
I agree that it's using a mechanical shutter, but I couldn't find
any information on the interaction between the mechanism and any
electronic shuttering on the chip.
Now since Canon designed this sensor, they could have left out much
of the electronic shutter control circuitry perhaps making it more
of a full-frame design?
What would it mean to make a full frame active pixel sensor?

The CCD terminology doesn't apply to active pixel sensors.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
--
Skyline
 
Every digital camera on the market (except possibly some Kodak
digital SLRs) has both a mechanical shutter and an electronic one,
so I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that
the page mentions a mechanical shutter.
No, I'm drawing the conclusion from the 2 points I listed: that it
includes ONLY the mechanical shutter in the specs AND the
mechanical shutter type listed seems to be too expensive if it's
really not used for exposure control. Obviously, it's possible for
one or both of these to be wrong, but it's highly suggestive in the
absence of other facts.
Nikon indicates that they use both electronic and mechanical shutters on the D1X and the D1H, which have 1/16,000 max shutter speeds.

I don't think Canon is particularly clear about what they're doing. We're still trying to figure out the role of the mechanical shutter in the 1D precisely because they aren't very clear. Canon is especially tight-lipped about their CMOS technology, so I don't find the lack of detailed information what electronic shuttering mechanism, if any, they use with the D30 to be very informative in isolation.

My understanding is you get rolling shutter capability automatically with an active pixel design. Of course, this doesn't imply that they are using this capability or that it would be fast enough to be useful on a sensor this size even if they wanted to.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Every digital camera on the market (except possibly some Kodak
digital SLRs) has both a mechanical shutter and an electronic one,
so I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that
the page mentions a mechanical shutter.
Some questions and answers which may be of interest.......
3. Does the 1D use the mechanical shutter even at 7 FPS? I thought I read that Canon had to use an electronic shutter to get that many frames per second. If it is using an electronic shutter, then where is all the noise coming from? Is it the mirror?
Except during Bulb mode, EOS-1D exposure times are always controlled by the CCD. However, the mechanical shutter protects the CCD between exposures and must be fully open in order for exposure to occur. The maximum mechanical shutter speed is therefore 1/125th, since faster mechanical speeds would result in a moving slit exposure rather than one where both shutter curtains are fully retracted. The noise you hear during a continuous shooting sequence is mostly the shutter charging motor and the reflex mirror mechanism moving up and down.

Best Regards,

Chuck Westfall
Assistant Director/Technical Information Dept.
Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc.
 
There is no way the 1D is limited to 1/125th shutter speed (unless
I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.) Even the cheapest EOS
Rebel has dual leading and trailing curtains. This is not a
feature that would not be on a 1D.

Danny
Hi Danny,

Chuck Westfall (Canon Technical Rep) say that the mechanical shutter's purpose is to protect the CCD between exposures. The maximum rate that the mechanical shutter can operate is 1/125 sec. for tech reasons. At speeds greater than that it's all electronic shutter with the mechanical shutter open. Here's a quote:
3. Does the 1D use the mechanical shutter even at 7 FPS? I thought I read that Canon had to use an electronic shutter to get that many frames per second. If it is using an electronic shutter, then where is all the noise coming from? Is it the mirror?
Except during Bulb mode, EOS-1D exposure times are always controlled by the CCD. However, the mechanical shutter protects the CCD between exposures and must be fully open in order for exposure to occur. The maximum mechanical shutter speed is therefore 1/125th, since faster mechanical speeds would result in a moving slit exposure rather than one where both shutter curtains are fully retracted. The noise you hear during a continuous shooting sequence is mostly the shutter charging motor and the reflex mirror mechanism moving up and down.

Best Regards,

Chuck Westfall
Assistant Director/Technical Information Dept.
Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc.
 
There has been along discussion going on here. You pointed to a comment by Chuck Westfall which is an almost verbatim repeat from Canon's FAQ, something that Erik mentioned many, many posts ago:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2610899

so, I pointed to a piece of the discussion which indicates that it's a much more complicated issue than this.

To this, your response is "So?..."

I'm not sure what to see here. It seems like we're not connecting somehow.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
There has been along discussion going on here. You pointed to a
comment by Chuck Westfall which is an almost verbatim repeat from
Canon's FAQ, something that Erik mentioned many, many posts ago:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2610899

so, I pointed to a piece of the discussion which indicates that
it's a much more complicated issue than this.

To this, your response is "So?..."

I'm not sure what to see here. It seems like we're not connecting
somehow.
Ron,

It's because my quote from Chuck was in response to Daniel Lauring's question. Apparently the situation wasn't all that clear to everyone so I inserted the quotation which avoids the necessity of everyone's reading through Canon's FAQ to find the relevant information - nothing more, nothing less.

Lin
 

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