Where to draw the line? (on PP?)

pmong

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Hi,

First, I want to thank everyone who have been so incredibly helpful over the last five months that I have participated on the Retouch forum. My PP skills have greatly increased by many folds, both from your advice and from practicing on others' photo when time permits.

Now I face a little dilemma in deciding when and when not to PP. Because I now have more skills and more efficient (although far from the level of many of you), I can easily see what can be done to most of my photographs. I am resisting to do so, mainly because of time limitation. I try to stick with Lightroom to PP photos that I think need only basic and universal image adjustments and cropping/rotating. I mainly reserve extensive PP to ones that seem to be of high value but needs layers, cloning/healing and masking. But even with this meta work flow, I am still struggling to come up with a good decision process. I am in the middle of processing my last outing, and most of the processing has been in LR. You can see the set at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9476880@N02/sets/72157605508964501/

If you have any suggestions for any particular picture, that would be useful. But here, I am more interested in deciding how to prioritize which photos should receive extensive work (e.g., take out certain unwanted parts, dealing with motion blur, etc.). I also had a similar issue with a set of wedding photograph of a relative, which unfortunately I cannot share. I have a greater degree of option because I don't shot for pay, but I do share my photographs with the "clients".

So, I would love to hear from others about how they decide on which photos to PP, how extensive, etc. What guidelines do you use? Typically, how much time do you spend processing a photo when going beyond simple universal image adjustments? How do you know when enough is enough? Do you sometime find yourself too engaged in PP?

I know that there are no simple answers because each photograph is different and has different challenges. But any thoughts you have would be very useful as I try to determine for myself the balance between time devoted to shooting and processing, and between simple processing and extensive processing.

Thank you in advance.
 
This has been discussed many times before. You will get the whole gamut of opinions. There are those that think practically any post processing is wrong.

At the other extreme, well, there's lylejk. (lol)

In other words, it's what you are comfortable with.

Most people will agree, however, that photojournalism should not be altered in a way to deceive. Also, things like trying to sell some property, and you take out the dump next door and put in a lovely park.

--
Gary

Friends are God's way of apologizing to us for our families.
 
--

This has been discussed many times before. You will get the whole gamut of opinions. There are those that think practically any post processing is wrong.

At the other extreme, well, there's Junk Yark Dog, JYD. (lol)

In other words, it's what you are comfortable with.

Most people will agree, however, that photojournalism should not be altered in a way to deceive. Also, things like trying to sell some property, and you take out the dump next door and put in a lovely park.

Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.
 
This has been discussed many times before. You will get the whole gamut of opinions. There are those that think practically any post processing is wrong.

At the other extreme, well, there's Conrad Birdie. (lol)

In other words, it's what you are comfortable with.

Most people will agree, however, that photojournalism should not be altered in a way to deceive. Also, things like trying to sell some property, and you take out the dump next door and put in a lovely park.

Ronny
 
OK, the laugh is on me, and that's fine. Sorry if it has been discussed before, but I don't recall seeing much during my five months here. Maybe it is a senior moment for me or maybe I did not read every thread, so forgive me. I did do a quick search, but I did not find much. Again, it may be my own limitations, in this case in how to best use the search engine.

Seriously, I would really appreciate hearing from people on this, or at least point me to a previous thread.

I understand the point about photojournalism, in part because I was a photographer for my college newspaper. No manipulation. But, I am not doing photojournalism at this point.

Perhaps the issue of how much time to spend on PP is not an issue with most here, and I am ok with that.
 
Don't take us wrong. We are not making fun of you at all. You asked a question that we all struggle with on a daily basis. JYD's answer really couldn't be improved on, IMO, except for a small name change. LOL No really, I just asked a friend of mine the same question recently...well it was very close to the same queston. Just hang around in the forum and see what these folks can do with different images and you will realize that all images can be improved in ways you wouldn't have imagined. As time goes on, you will develope a style and better eye for what you think can be done. Don't hold back. The sky is the limit. :-)

Ronny
 
Bunch of workflow links.... not sure if they're all 'alive' but a few might help....

While the ACR workflow is there you'd probably be better off searching for a specific LR workflow...

Good beginner’s tutorial on photoshop

http://www.extropia.com/tutorials/photoshop/toc.html
http://www.dwphotoshop.com/photoshop/
more tuts
http://www.michielsen.info/photoshop/index.htm
http://www.tutorialized.com/tutorials/Photoshop/1
http://arstechnica.com/guides/tweaks/mystery.ars
http://www.zuberphotographics.com/

Good beginner’s tutorial on retouch workflow

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/instant_photoshop.shtml

http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/PhotoLab/KnowledgeBase/DigiPhotoTips/PhotoshopBasicTool.htm
http://www.worth1000.com/tutorial.asp?sid=161112&page=1

http://www.arraich.com/ps_intro.htm
see my posts in the thread vtc, etc.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=9187446
action
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=13975398
http://www.atncentral.com/download.htm#Kents_Quick_Retouch
tutorials:
http://www.worth1000.com/tutorial.asp

Advanced workflow

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/techniques/process.shtml
Step-by-Step Processing of Photographs using Photoshop.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/workflow1.shtml

Eddie Tapp sample chapter – workspace/workflow

http://downloads.indesignmag.com/cp/20060614workflow.pdf

The Ideal Digital Photographer's Workflow, Part's 1 2 &3.

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2003/12/17/digital_photography.html
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2004/01/21/digital_photography.html
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2004/02/24/digital_photography.html

Raw workflow vs. Photoshop CS.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=10178439

Digital workflow - Michielsen

http://www.michielsen.info/photoshop/workflow/

Workflow

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=4066080

Workflow actions

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=4474932

--
Kent

http://www.pbase.com/kentc
tutorial archive:
http://porg.4t.com/KentC.html
 
This has been discussed many times before. You will get the whole
gamut of opinions. There are those that think practically any post
processing is wrong.

At the other EXTREME, well, there's Ronny Harris. (lol)

In other words, it's what you are comfortable with.

Most people will agree, however, that photojournalism should not be
altered in a way to deceive. Also, things like trying to sell some
property, and you take out the dump next door and put in a lovely
park.

Ronny
--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.
 
Don't take us wrong. We are not making fun of you at all. You asked
a question that we all struggle with on a daily basis. JYD's answer
really couldn't be improved on, IMO, except for a small name change.
LOL No really, I just asked a friend of mine the same question
recently...well it was very close to the same queston. Just hang
around in the forum and see what these folks can do with different
images and you will realize that all images can be improved in ways
you wouldn't have imagined. As time goes on, you will develope a
style and better eye for what you think can be done. Don't hold
back. The sky is the limit. :-)

Ronny
--

Exactly what Ronny said!! It is all in good fun with each other. SORRY!!

It really is very subjective though what some will do in the post processing world. Some do go to extreme's and others simply don't believe in it. This is clearly a retouching forum, so it is basically understood that is what we all do here, along with having some fun ocassionally.

Hope you understand it was NOT meant to offend you at all. Again, sorry if it came across that way.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.
 
This was in today's NY Times.

Do you guys think that the photographer touched up (cranked up the saturation) on the nails to make them stand out even more? Maybe just a smidge? Or maybe not? :)

 
I can easily see what can be done to most of my photographs.

Pmong: big difference between "what can be done" and "what needs to be done."

That is where you need to draw the line if you are drawing time constraints. The rest is subjective interpretation of the image. But it's how you feel, not how any of us feels about an image. That doesn't mean that a file cannot be "dressed" up.

If you look at some of the work here, you will see that some of us are playing with all the tools at our disposal to see what we "can" do, while some are improving the photo without changing the basics, whether it be lighting, color, etc.

One of the pitfalls is that the more knowledge you acquire, the greater the desire to do more than might be required for an image. Again, determine what needs to be done, not necessarily what you want to do.

And many talented folks here have developed actions to meet specific needs -color fixes, WB issues, etc. - too numerous to mention here but you can find them at http://www.atncentral .

Most cameras and inkjet printers and the mini-lab printers in the Wal-Marts, Costcos and Walgreens can produce acceptable quality with nothing done to the files. Obviously this changes with the skill level of the photographer and the employees of the labs.

Now I'm rambling. gc
 
This was in today's NY Times.

Do you guys think that the photographer touched up (cranked up the
saturation) on the nails to make them stand out even more? Maybe just
a smidge? Or maybe not? :)

--

Was that photographer REALLY looking at the nails, or was it his excuse to take the picture of the girl on the left??? Got a sharper image??????? LOL
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.
 
good point! didn't even think about that, but that's cus I'm a girl! lol

No sharper image, I'm sorry. The original image in the paper is pretty bad too. Newspaper printing, what can I say... :)
 
This was in today's NY Times.

Do you guys think that the photographer touched up (cranked up the
saturation) on the nails to make them stand out even more? Maybe just
a smidge? Or maybe not? :)

No, that looks standard for The NY Times pint color.

I once worked as a photographer for a small town newspaper, and my duties included the darkroom too. It is acceptable to "edit" a photo, by cropping, dodging and burning; IOW, improving the quality of the photo without changing the content. gc
 
There are no answers to this. you do what you want to do with a photo. It's entirely subjective and personal. do as much or as little PP as you like or what a client asks for.

It's an art form and there no rules, guidelines, answers from the experts. A single photo can have one or more versions if you like.

The Beatles didn't sit around asking "how long should this song be? How much time should it take? Horns or piano? Someone please tell us how to do this song!
Do what you like.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/smckearnan/
 
Thanks everyone for the additional responses. And really, I am not offended. I got a little laugh out of the initial responses.

I hope to have some time later this week to respond to the individual posts, but I am at work, and it is now break time.

Overall, I fully agree with everyone about the decision being individual and subjective. I know in the end, I have to decide what I want to do and how much I want to devote to PP. BUT, what has been incredibly helpful from you and this forum are people's comments that point me to ideas, factors and things that I have not considered. It is very much like when I PP a photograph too much and end up in the proverbial tree-and-forest problem. I get too fixated on one things that I sometime miss other glaring things. And many of you have been kind enough to point out these things when I post something for C&C. It is great to get a fresh eye(s) on things.

So, it is the same reason that I am asking about how you bring balance to what you do with PP and how much you do. I am always willing to try or experiment with good ideas and suggestions because I know that others are far more experienced (and skilled). The comments help me to think well beyond the narrow box that I often get stuck in.

I raise this point because I do much more photography during the summer after school ends in another week. (I teach.) Even then, I have limited time because of other obligations. I want to get the most out of my time, and things will be by trail and error. Pointing me in the right direction would be a good way to start.

Again, thanks, both for the humor and the other responses. It's back to work.
 
good point! didn't even think about that, but that's cus I'm a girl! lol

No sharper image, I'm sorry. The original image in the paper is
pretty bad too. Newspaper printing, what can I say... :)
You can always call the newspaper and get it for me.......lol.

--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.
 
Thanks everyone for the additional responses. And really, I am not
offended. I got a little laugh out of the initial responses.

I hope to have some time later this week to respond to the individual
posts, but I am at work, and it is now break time.

Overall, I fully agree with everyone about the decision being
individual and subjective. I know in the end, I have to decide what I
want to do and how much I want to devote to PP. BUT, what has been
incredibly helpful from you and this forum are people's comments that
point me to ideas, factors and things that I have not considered. It
is very much like when I PP a photograph too much and end up in the
proverbial tree-and-forest problem. I get too fixated on one things
that I sometime miss other glaring things. And many of you have been
kind enough to point out these things when I post something for C&C.
It is great to get a fresh eye(s) on things.

So, it is the same reason that I am asking about how you bring
balance to what you do with PP and how much you do. I am always
willing to try or experiment with good ideas and suggestions because
I know that others are far more experienced (and skilled). The
comments help me to think well beyond the narrow box that I often get
stuck in.

I raise this point because I do much more photography during the
summer after school ends in another week. (I teach.) Even then, I
have limited time because of other obligations. I want to get the
most out of my time, and things will be by trail and error. Pointing
me in the right direction would be a good way to start.

Again, thanks, both for the humor and the other responses. It's back
to work.
--

As most here, we develope our owns likes and dislikes and then we go from there. Personally, I am not a big fan of black and white images, but that is just me. I like color. But numerous people do like Black and White and ask many questions here on the best way to convert images to Black and White.

Others like sketch photos, some like smudging, and others, like Ray Gusselli, goes absolutely wack-o overboard with cars, motorcycles, and other vehicles, (and that is not a bad thing either as he does a tremendous job at it). A member by the name of Scott Deardorff is unbelievable with smudge paintings, and I mean unbelievable. So much so that others, including Ray, have taken his course and are trying their hands at it also.

Then we have numerous, Master Retouchers here, that simply specialize in helping correct things like color casts, white balance, blown out skies and other areas, etc. So, you can see that many different things go on here and you will just have to decide what you want to learn and then go from there.

The other thing we do, is to try to have some fun (which you have witnessed in this thread) at others expenses, and that is just part of the comraderie that goes on here.

Sometimes, it can get a little heated or competitiive also, and you will learn to either tune it out, or have your say. Either way, have fun with retouching, and go slow in what you learn, as Photoshop can be overwhelming at first.

Signed,
The Birdman
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.
 

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