Where Do We Go from Here?

[KCTrio]

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams), sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US government does in the world now or in the past?

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think? I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that have an historical perspective.

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not supportive enough?

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around the world, how can governments around the world stop global terrorism?

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions, but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

 

[Frank C.]

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

It's because the US is the most powerful and richest nation in the
world and everyone likes to take pot-shots at the king of the
hill. If the US had less visibility, I believe there would
be less hatred/jealousy towards them. AFA Americans travelling
abroad, I always found them to be ultra-friendly and very down
to earth -no snobbiness whatsoever ( I live in Canada ). And
as to the level of patriotism the Americans show towards
their country, I am in complete admiration of it personally however
some people become ticked by it ( ie: "we know your the best,
so don't shove it in our faces" attitude..etc.. ). On the
whole, if I had to place a country to rule the world, I would
place the US no.1 because they have the best mix of
civility/strength/fairness/justice of any nation on the face
of the globe.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

The trick to beating terrorism is to have several heavy weight muslim
states condemn it... states like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Saudia
Arabia etc.. The US now has to use the stick or the threat of
it to make it clear to these nations that they need to come into
the fold...Americans have the might and $$$ to pull it through imo.
Remember, the terrorists only from a small % of the muslim world
so it's up the majority to whip their @ss. Capture bin Laden,
bring him to a world court, have him condemned by the
muslim and world representatives ( including the US of course ),
hang him and make him an example to the the ENTIRE world.
Remember, the key here is to have the muslims condemn one of
their own....or else this thing will never never end.

 

[KCTrio]

Thanks, Frank C.

I've always admired your contributions to the STF, and you have enlightened me in many ways. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Kind regards.

Mike M

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

It's because the US is the most powerful and richest nation in the
world and everyone likes to take pot-shots at the king of the
hill. If the US had less visibility, I believe there would
be less hatred/jealousy towards them. AFA Americans travelling
abroad, I always found them to be ultra-friendly and very down
to earth -no snobbiness whatsoever ( I live in Canada ). And
as to the level of patriotism the Americans show towards
their country, I am in complete admiration of it personally however
some people become ticked by it ( ie: "we know your the best,
so don't shove it in our faces" attitude..etc.. ). On the
whole, if I had to place a country to rule the world, I would
place the US no.1 because they have the best mix of
civility/strength/fairness/justice of any nation on the face
of the globe.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

The trick to beating terrorism is to have several heavy weight muslim
states condemn it... states like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Saudia
Arabia etc.. The US now has to use the stick or the threat of
it to make it clear to these nations that they need to come into
the fold...Americans have the might and $$$ to pull it through imo.
Remember, the terrorists only from a small % of the muslim world
so it's up the majority to whip their @ss. Capture bin Laden,
bring him to a world court, have him condemned by the
muslim and world representatives ( including the US of course ),
hang him and make him an example to the the ENTIRE world.
Remember, the key here is to have the muslims condemn one of
their own....or else this thing will never never end.

 

[Jason Busch]

Mike M,

The big reason is not because we are "Americans" but it is because we support our terrorists' enemies. Israel is one of the countries that has been our friend, and many nations are against this.

I have a hard time myself supporting Israel, because if you pick up a history book about the foundation of Israel back at the end of WWII, what happened, in short, is that many jews made an Exodus to a location and decided it was their homeland, and drove out those who had lived their for hundreds of years (maybe even thousands of years). Now, Israel's defense for doing this, is that they were driven out of this area as well, many hundreds and thousands of years ago. It is a continuing vicious cycle where we have a group of people getting revenge for events that happened thousands of years in the past. There will never be peace if people look to the past for justification for their actions.

Unfortunately, I think the US is headed in this direction as well. The recent terrorist attack on our country is a historic event that will be in our minds for decades, and our children's minds as well.

Terrorists could care less about what Americans eat, think, and what they do in their leisure time. But when we start to funnel money and weapons to countries that terrorists are fighting, those terrorists automatically label us as the enemy. And I agree with them for doing so. Helping countries in any way, acknowledges that we agree with their theolgy and ideals, no matter how directly or indirectly it may appear.

P.S. To those who may have more information than I do about Israel, please post, because I am not the definitive historian. We will most likely get into a discussion about it, and this may benefit us both.

Jason Busch

 

[Marcel-Etienne56998]

Mike,

This discussion looks promising, but it's nearly 5.00 a.m. here in Belgium, and I MUST go to bed. So you will have to wait till tomorrow if you are interested in my opinion...

BTW, although I appreciate Frank's statement, I think it just proves how closely related Canada and the US are (maybe the French Canadians would have a slightly different point of view, I don't know...). IMO, to get some kind of answer to these questions, the intervention of people from further away is a necessity.
Bye
Marcel-Etienne

I've always admired your contributions to the STF, and you have
enlightened me in many ways. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Kind regards.

Mike M

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

It's because the US is the most powerful and richest nation in the
world and everyone likes to take pot-shots at the king of the
hill. If the US had less visibility, I believe there would
be less hatred/jealousy towards them. AFA Americans travelling
abroad, I always found them to be ultra-friendly and very down
to earth -no snobbiness whatsoever ( I live in Canada ). And
as to the level of patriotism the Americans show towards
their country, I am in complete admiration of it personally however
some people become ticked by it ( ie: "we know your the best,
so don't shove it in our faces" attitude..etc.. ). On the
whole, if I had to place a country to rule the world, I would
place the US no.1 because they have the best mix of
civility/strength/fairness/justice of any nation on the face
of the globe.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

The trick to beating terrorism is to have several heavy weight muslim
states condemn it... states like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Saudia
Arabia etc.. The US now has to use the stick or the threat of
it to make it clear to these nations that they need to come into
the fold...Americans have the might and $$$ to pull it through imo.
Remember, the terrorists only from a small % of the muslim world
so it's up the majority to whip their @ss. Capture bin Laden,
bring him to a world court, have him condemned by the
muslim and world representatives ( including the US of course ),
hang him and make him an example to the the ENTIRE world.
Remember, the key here is to have the muslims condemn one of
their own....or else this thing will never never end.

 

[KCTrio]

Thanks, Jason, for your insights.

Wasn't Israel given a homeland in return for the attrocities that the Jews suffered during WWII under the Nazis? If so, this might explain our support for that country also.

And, I don't believe that American/Israeli relations during the '40s and '50s were as strong as they are today.

Mike M,

The big reason is not because we are "Americans" but it is because
we support our terrorists' enemies. Israel is one of the countries
that has been our friend, and many nations are against this.

I have a hard time myself supporting Israel, because if you pick up
a history book about the foundation of Israel back at the end of
WWII, what happened, in short, is that many jews made an Exodus to
a location and decided it was their homeland, and drove out those
who had lived their for hundreds of years (maybe even thousands of
years). Now, Israel's defense for doing this, is that they were
driven out of this area as well, many hundreds and thousands of
years ago. It is a continuing vicious cycle where we have a group
of people getting revenge for events that happened thousands of
years in the past. There will never be peace if people look to the
past for justification for their actions.

Unfortunately, I think the US is headed in this direction as well.
The recent terrorist attack on our country is a historic event that
will be in our minds for decades, and our children's minds as well.

Terrorists could care less about what Americans eat, think, and
what they do in their leisure time. But when we start to funnel
money and weapons to countries that terrorists are fighting, those
terrorists automatically label us as the enemy. And I agree with
them for doing so. Helping countries in any way, acknowledges that
we agree with their theolgy and ideals, no matter how directly or
indirectly it may appear.

P.S. To those who may have more information than I do about Israel,
please post, because I am not the definitive historian. We will
most likely get into a discussion about it, and this may benefit us
both.

Jason Busch

 

[KCTrio]

Thanks, Marcel-Etienne.

I am truly looking forward to your thoughts on this. My goal is definately to learn more, especially from others around the world.

I look forward to your post.

Now get some sleep.

I've always admired your contributions to the STF, and you have
enlightened me in many ways. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Kind regards.

Mike M

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

It's because the US is the most powerful and richest nation in the
world and everyone likes to take pot-shots at the king of the
hill. If the US had less visibility, I believe there would
be less hatred/jealousy towards them. AFA Americans travelling
abroad, I always found them to be ultra-friendly and very down
to earth -no snobbiness whatsoever ( I live in Canada ). And
as to the level of patriotism the Americans show towards
their country, I am in complete admiration of it personally however
some people become ticked by it ( ie: "we know your the best,
so don't shove it in our faces" attitude..etc.. ). On the
whole, if I had to place a country to rule the world, I would
place the US no.1 because they have the best mix of
civility/strength/fairness/justice of any nation on the face
of the globe.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

The trick to beating terrorism is to have several heavy weight muslim
states condemn it... states like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Saudia
Arabia etc.. The US now has to use the stick or the threat of
it to make it clear to these nations that they need to come into
the fold...Americans have the might and $$$ to pull it through imo.
Remember, the terrorists only from a small % of the muslim world
so it's up the majority to whip their @ss. Capture bin Laden,
bring him to a world court, have him condemned by the
muslim and world representatives ( including the US of course ),
hang him and make him an example to the the ENTIRE world.
Remember, the key here is to have the muslims condemn one of
their own....or else this thing will never never end.

 

[Chuck52450]

Mike,

One of the most enlightening posts I read tonight is at http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&page=1&message=1522534 It explained a lot of things for me.

Following is the last paragraph from the original post

"But Bin Laden and his followers are alarming because they don't want
anything from us. They don't want our sympathy. They want no material thing
we can offer them. They don't want to participate in the community of
nations. (They don't really believe in the nation-state.) They are motivated
by religion, not politics. They answer to no one but their god, so they
certainly won't answer to us. "

I suggest that, for most Americans, trying to understand what motivates people (I hesitate to even call them people) like that is like trying to understand Klingons! We're not even thinking on similar wavelengths, and THAT is the frightening part. How do you deal with people to whom the most important thing they could ever hope to do in their life is to sacrifice themselves for their cause? The flippant answer is "Help them succeed!", but the time and cost to America will, I fear, be much more than our collective memory is willing to bear.

I'm already hearing more and more of the liberal wing starting to urge "another way" --- "I want justice, but not violence"--- as if there were one without the other, in this case. Is the half life of our memory really only five days?

I was born during WWII, a kid during Korea and served during Viet Nam. This one scares me!

Chuck

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

 

[Jason Busch]

Chuck,

I wish most Americans would know what you know. This whole thing reminds me of Independence Day. We basically have aliens that have invaded our country, and don't care if we are nice. They simply want to take us over and our land. Well, I hope they saw the ending of the movie I just mentioned.

Jason Busch

 

[Ger Bee]

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

Well from seeing tourists - Americans portray aggressiveness in seeking service and value which locals take a dislike to. In most Irish tourists areas the prices are higher and the service is lower - the bigger the tourist attraction the worst this gets. So Americans complain and ***** - now in every hotel I've been in locally I see Americans complaining about the bill. Not that Americans don't pay, but many feel cheated with extra charges - the phone being one - we do not have free phone call lines but hotels fail miserable to make this clear to visitors - especially US visitors -- and we should know better as we know quite a bit about the US culture so I'd expect a hotel manager to be aware of these little pitfalls -- as one American finished his complaint because he had to catch the next plane -- I don't mind paying the bill but if I'd known the cost of this service here I'd not have used it so much!

This question has way too many parts so I'll skip along.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

What is needed is a will. In Ireland we have our fair share of terrorists - financed by American money - not US gov dollars but well meaning supporters. Nonetheless two things had to happen to bring the open warfare to a "ceasefire" situation - firstly American money had to dry up – accompanied by military escorts guarding every bank delivery in the Irish Republic (even so several shoot outs with armed police and military did occur). Secondly – a disgruntled splinter group – totally dissatisfied with the panyanty tactics of the IRA (like giving 20-minute warnings of a car bomb) planted two homemade fertiliser bombs in Omagh – then gave a 20-minute warning but gave the wrong locations – people actually ran towards the bomb and an unprecedented number were killed. The group called a ceasefire and disbanded however; most members of that splinter group were assassinated in the following years. In each case a drugs war was the official explanation. In our particular case the situation could be improved if the victors (who? The British – the Loyalists?) would recognise a defeated army and accept that but the victors are calling for un-deliverable demands – the IRA have no weapons or money left and still the calls come to disarm and surrender.

So – the first thing is “show me the money” then stop it. Then military assistance may work in protecting assets belonging to others. The occasional strike against known terrorists camps could be very effective in wearing them down. Most of the great armies in the world lose to attrition. Bomb a camp – lose a guard or two and destroy that night’s dinner – and the enemy we are facing are very susceptible to attrition by the very act of suicide attacks we are attacked only once – defence is the key to winning this one – we don’t need to attack them in major force just set up a base and they’ll come running.

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

If I were to list the peoples I dislike I'd have a long list. Two stories; I was working with two colleagues for over a year in a store when a senior salesman called one day to see for himself. He called me over and asked how I liked working with “niggers” - what “ns” I replied – “HIM!” Sure enough one of my co-workers was coloured – I had not seen it until it was pointed out.

For two years I served on particular gentleman at a gas station, he wanted his car filled and a receipt showing the gallons and litres and the mileage and the MPG. Most others were really nasty about this but he was a customer so I ended up doing this all the time – so I did – he never got the chance to ask me to do the conversions to gallons or work out the MPG – I did it automatically every time – thus saving the annoying routine that all the others persecuted him with. But that’s not the story – they were discussing the one-armed man “what one armed man I said!” “Your buddy! You’ve been serving him for two years!” Sure enough he did in fact only have one arm and had a disabled drivers car conversion. I’d not have noticed until it was pointed out – but for the life of me to this day I have not figured out the significance of bringing these things to my attention – let alone religion which in all are a private between each individual and their own beliefs.

I do not believe in organised religion and tend to favour the Japanese approach were they can have multiple faiths – or none.

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Already mentioned in another post - do not support terrorist leaders. Some were US backed and failed overthrow attempts - bungled intelligence - and then the leader lives free in the US or England.

Nonsense -- a terrorist is such in any country. Unless I am brave enough to place uniformed troops on the ground and face annihilation I must sacrifice my terrorist leader when they fail to do our bidding - even if it is not their fault.

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

 

[Beth]

Beth wrote:

I agree with Marcel! To really eradicate terrorism, it is going to take the cooperation of many nations. We all have a stake in this.

I've always admired your contributions to the STF, and you have
enlightened me in many ways. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Kind regards.

Mike M

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

It's because the US is the most powerful and richest nation in the
world and everyone likes to take pot-shots at the king of the
hill. If the US had less visibility, I believe there would
be less hatred/jealousy towards them. AFA Americans travelling
abroad, I always found them to be ultra-friendly and very down
to earth -no snobbiness whatsoever ( I live in Canada ). And
as to the level of patriotism the Americans show towards
their country, I am in complete admiration of it personally however
some people become ticked by it ( ie: "we know your the best,
so don't shove it in our faces" attitude..etc.. ). On the
whole, if I had to place a country to rule the world, I would
place the US no.1 because they have the best mix of
civility/strength/fairness/justice of any nation on the face
of the globe.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

The trick to beating terrorism is to have several heavy weight muslim
states condemn it... states like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Saudia
Arabia etc.. The US now has to use the stick or the threat of
it to make it clear to these nations that they need to come into
the fold...Americans have the might and $$$ to pull it through imo.
Remember, the terrorists only from a small % of the muslim world
so it's up the majority to whip their @ss. Capture bin Laden,
bring him to a world court, have him condemned by the
muslim and world representatives ( including the US of course ),
hang him and make him an example to the the ENTIRE world.
Remember, the key here is to have the muslims condemn one of
their own....or else this thing will never never end.

 

[KCTrio]

Thank you, Ger Bee, for truly enlightening me.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that most Americans (myself included) have no idea what it is like to live in fear of terrorists, until now.

Racism, it seems, is a universal human condition. Those around the world that would call the US a racist nation should consider the fact that we have multiple cultures and colors of people in one place. Because of this, the natural human tendency towards racism shows its ugly head.

Thanks for an excellent post.

Kind regards.

Mike M

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

Well from seeing tourists - Americans portray aggressiveness in
seeking service and value which locals take a dislike to. In most
Irish tourists areas the prices are higher and the service is lower

• the bigger the tourist attraction the worst this gets. So

Americans complain and ***** - now in every hotel I've been in
locally I see Americans complaining about the bill. Not that
Americans don't pay, but many feel cheated with extra charges - the
phone being one - we do not have free phone call lines but hotels
fail miserable to make this clear to visitors - especially US
visitors -- and we should know better as we know quite a bit about
the US culture so I'd expect a hotel manager to be aware of these
little pitfalls -- as one American finished his complaint because
he had to catch the next plane -- I don't mind paying the bill but
if I'd known the cost of this service here I'd not have used it so
much!

This question has way too many parts so I'll skip along.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

What is needed is a will. In Ireland we have our fair share of
terrorists - financed by American money - not US gov dollars but
well meaning supporters. Nonetheless two things had to happen to
bring the open warfare to a "ceasefire" situation - firstly
American money had to dry up – accompanied by military escorts
guarding every bank delivery in the Irish Republic (even so several
shoot outs with armed police and military did occur). Secondly – a
disgruntled splinter group – totally dissatisfied with the panyanty
tactics of the IRA (like giving 20-minute warnings of a car bomb)
planted two homemade fertiliser bombs in Omagh – then gave a
20-minute warning but gave the wrong locations – people actually
ran towards the bomb and an unprecedented number were killed. The
group called a ceasefire and disbanded however; most members of
that splinter group were assassinated in the following years. In
each case a drugs war was the official explanation. In our
particular case the situation could be improved if the victors
(who? The British – the Loyalists?) would recognise a defeated army
and accept that but the victors are calling for un-deliverable
demands – the IRA have no weapons or money left and still the calls
come to disarm and surrender.

So – the first thing is “show me the money” then stop it. Then
military assistance may work in protecting assets belonging to
others. The occasional strike against known terrorists camps could
be very effective in wearing them down. Most of the great armies in
the world lose to attrition. Bomb a camp – lose a guard or two and
destroy that night’s dinner – and the enemy we are facing are very
susceptible to attrition by the very act of suicide attacks we are
attacked only once – defence is the key to winning this one – we
don’t need to attack them in major force just set up a base and
they’ll come running.

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

If I were to list the peoples I dislike I'd have a long list. Two
stories; I was working with two colleagues for over a year in a
store when a senior salesman called one day to see for himself. He
called me over and asked how I liked working with “niggers” - what

“ns” I replied – “HIM!” Sure enough one of my co-workers was
coloured – I had not seen it until it was pointed out.

For two years I served on particular gentleman at a gas station, he
wanted his car filled and a receipt showing the gallons and litres
and the mileage and the MPG. Most others were really nasty about
this but he was a customer so I ended up doing this all the time –
so I did – he never got the chance to ask me to do the conversions
to gallons or work out the MPG – I did it automatically every time
– thus saving the annoying routine that all the others persecuted
him with. But that’s not the story – they were discussing the

one-armed man “what one armed man I said!” “Your buddy! You’ve been
serving him for two years!” Sure enough he did in fact only have
one arm and had a disabled drivers car conversion. I’d not have
noticed until it was pointed out – but for the life of me to this
day I have not figured out the significance of bringing these
things to my attention – let alone religion which in all are a
private between each individual and their own beliefs.

I do not believe in organised religion and tend to favour the
Japanese approach were they can have multiple faiths – or none.

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Already mentioned in another post - do not support terrorist
leaders. Some were US backed and failed overthrow attempts -
bungled intelligence - and then the leader lives free in the US or
England.

Nonsense -- a terrorist is such in any country. Unless I am brave
enough to place uniformed troops on the ground and face
annihilation I must sacrifice my terrorist leader when they fail to
do our bidding - even if it is not their fault.

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

 

[Bryan29453]

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

Maybe dual standards come into the equation - Hands up all that have helped fund IRA activities in Britain

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

How can the US fight a war on terrorism when many of their subject are funding terrorism - IRA

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

Arabs obviously wonder - why are the US supporting Jews living in my country of Palestine who at the same time trying to starve me of water and kick me off my own land? Rightfully mine.

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Stop funding it!

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

IMHO

 

[Marok]

I blame it on the muslims and the christians . You're both out to convert . I respect the Jews . They are proud of what they are and don't care what anyone else worships , much like the British .

The religion for the young in the U.K. today is a rave and an E . Even when they were in India they didn't care what the natives worshipped as long as they made a good cup of tea , unlike the orthodox Portugese in Goa who destroyed most of the native culture there .
The only thing I believe in is Father Christmas .

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

Maybe dual standards come into the equation - Hands up all that
have helped fund IRA activities in Britain

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

How can the US fight a war on terrorism when many of their subject
are funding terrorism - IRA

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

Arabs obviously wonder - why are the US supporting Jews living in
my country of Palestine who at the same time trying to starve me of
water and kick me off my own land? Rightfully mine.

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Stop funding it!

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

IMHO

 

[Bryan29453]

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

Well from seeing tourists - Americans portray aggressiveness in
seeking service and value which locals take a dislike to. In most
Irish tourists areas the prices are higher and the service is lower

• the bigger the tourist attraction the worst this gets. So

Americans complain and ***** - now in every hotel I've been in
locally I see Americans complaining about the bill. Not that
Americans don't pay, but many feel cheated with extra charges - the
phone being one - we do not have free phone call lines but hotels
fail miserable to make this clear to visitors - especially US
visitors -- and we should know better as we know quite a bit about
the US culture so I'd expect a hotel manager to be aware of these
little pitfalls -- as one American finished his complaint because
he had to catch the next plane -- I don't mind paying the bill but
if I'd known the cost of this service here I'd not have used it so
much!

This question has way too many parts so I'll skip along.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

What is needed is a will. In Ireland we have our fair share of
terrorists - financed by American money - not US gov dollars but
well meaning supporters. Nonetheless two things had to happen to
bring the open warfare to a "ceasefire" situation - firstly
American money had to dry up – accompanied by military escorts
guarding every bank delivery in the Irish Republic (even so several
shoot outs with armed police and military did occur). Secondly – a
disgruntled splinter group – totally dissatisfied with the panyanty
tactics of the IRA (like giving 20-minute warnings of a car bomb)
planted two homemade fertiliser bombs in Omagh – then gave a
20-minute warning but gave the wrong locations – people actually
ran towards the bomb and an unprecedented number were killed. The
group called a ceasefire and disbanded however; most members of
that splinter group were assassinated in the following years. In
each case a drugs war was the official explanation. In our
particular case the situation could be improved if the victors
(who? The British – the Loyalists?) would recognise a defeated army
and accept that but the victors are calling for un-deliverable
demands – the IRA have no weapons or money left and still the calls
come to disarm and surrender.

*******************************************************

IRA has no weapons left - PULL THE OTHER ONE "LOL"

*******************************************************

So – the first thing is “show me the money” then stop it. Then
military assistance may work in protecting assets belonging to
others. The occasional strike against known terrorists camps could
be very effective in wearing them down. Most of the great armies in
the world lose to attrition. Bomb a camp – lose a guard or two and
destroy that night’s dinner – and the enemy we are facing are very
susceptible to attrition by the very act of suicide attacks we are
attacked only once – defence is the key to winning this one – we
don’t need to attack them in major force just set up a base and
they’ll come running.

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

If I were to list the peoples I dislike I'd have a long list. Two
stories; I was working with two colleagues for over a year in a
store when a senior salesman called one day to see for himself. He
called me over and asked how I liked working with “niggers” - what
“ns” I replied – “HIM!” Sure enough one of my co-workers was
coloured – I had not seen it until it was pointed out.

******************************************************

I am sorry, you obviously mean well. However the term "coloured" to a black person in the UK is considered an insult. Go and visit any CRE Office and read the poster "and they call us coloured?"

******************************************************

For two years I served on particular gentleman at a gas station, he
wanted his car filled and a receipt showing the gallons and litres
and the mileage and the MPG. Most others were really nasty about
this but he was a customer so I ended up doing this all the time –
so I did – he never got the chance to ask me to do the conversions
to gallons or work out the MPG – I did it automatically every time
– thus saving the annoying routine that all the others persecuted
him with. But that’s not the story – they were discussing the
one-armed man “what one armed man I said!” “Your buddy! You’ve been
serving him for two years!” Sure enough he did in fact only have
one arm and had a disabled drivers car conversion. I’d not have
noticed until it was pointed out – but for the life of me to this
day I have not figured out the significance of bringing these
things to my attention – let alone religion which in all are a
private between each individual and their own beliefs.

I do not believe in organised religion and tend to favour the
Japanese approach were they can have multiple faiths – or none.

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Some governments could try and stop their subjects funding terrorist organisations like the IRA.

Already mentioned in another post - do not support terrorist
leaders. Some were US backed and failed overthrow attempts -
bungled intelligence - and then the leader lives free in the US or
England.

Nonsense -- a terrorist is such in any country. Unless I am brave
enough to place uniformed troops on the ground and face
annihilation I must sacrifice my terrorist leader when they fail to
do our bidding - even if it is not their fault.

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

Yes, I do feel bitter about IRA/INLA activities. I personally have lost friends and colleagues over the years and feel sorrow those having lost friends and family in bombings in England and Northern Ireland.

Looking at the tears and terror recently on TV when children had to run a religious gauntlet just to get to school I still wonder as to the future. This was purely one religious group against another. Maybe one of the many reasons that I lost my faith in religion many years ago.

 

[Bryan29453]

I respect the right of all people to have a religion and believe that someone is there to hear their prayers. I therefore have the right not to follow any particular religion or believe that such a being exists.

I worked with Arabs and Somalis in Aden for two years and respected their great attachment to their religion. I did not stop them praying and they did not stop me working. There was no joking or arguments about each others religion and in two years I never saw one heated arguments on this subject. We, at ground level, got on very well. It is for this reason that I feel sad when reading posts about attacking all Muslims.

As for Father Christmas - so do I, and I really hope he (she in my case) brings me a new Sigm 15-30mm EXDG lens this year.

(Sorry for third paragraph, just a bit of light relief - and a wish)

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

Maybe dual standards come into the equation - Hands up all that
have helped fund IRA activities in Britain

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

How can the US fight a war on terrorism when many of their subject
are funding terrorism - IRA

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

Arabs obviously wonder - why are the US supporting Jews living in
my country of Palestine who at the same time trying to starve me of
water and kick me off my own land? Rightfully mine.

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Stop funding it!

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

IMHO

 

[Peter G]

I am also Canadian and I agree 100% with what Frank says. Actually there is a lot of the view he mentions ( Americans are too arrogant etc) formented in Canada. When I was younger before travelling in USA, I was under the assumption that the Americans were arrogant war-mongers from what I had been told culturally.

After travelling there a bit, I would have to say the American people are more friendly and outgoing than those of my own country. They are peace loving, friendly, decent people. I consider this attack, an attack against decency.

Peter

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

It's because the US is the most powerful and richest nation in the
world and everyone likes to take pot-shots at the king of the
hill. If the US had less visibility, I believe there would
be less hatred/jealousy towards them. AFA Americans travelling
abroad, I always found them to be ultra-friendly and very down
to earth -no snobbiness whatsoever ( I live in Canada ). And
as to the level of patriotism the Americans show towards
their country, I am in complete admiration of it personally however
some people become ticked by it ( ie: "we know your the best,
so don't shove it in our faces" attitude..etc.. ). On the
whole, if I had to place a country to rule the world, I would
place the US no.1 because they have the best mix of
civility/strength/fairness/justice of any nation on the face
of the globe.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

The trick to beating terrorism is to have several heavy weight muslim
states condemn it... states like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Saudia
Arabia etc.. The US now has to use the stick or the threat of
it to make it clear to these nations that they need to come into
the fold...Americans have the might and $$$ to pull it through imo.
Remember, the terrorists only from a small % of the muslim world
so it's up the majority to whip their @ss. Capture bin Laden,
bring him to a world court, have him condemned by the
muslim and world representatives ( including the US of course ),
hang him and make him an example to the the ENTIRE world.
Remember, the key here is to have the muslims condemn one of
their own....or else this thing will never never end.

 

[Marok]

The Taliban in Afghanistan have destroyed ancient Buddhist monuments and forced all Hindus to wear yellow badges .

I worked with Arabs and Somalis in Aden for two years and respected
their great attachment to their religion. I did not stop them
praying and they did not stop me working. There was no joking or
arguments about each others religion and in two years I never saw
one heated arguments on this subject. We, at ground level, got on
very well. It is for this reason that I feel sad when reading posts
about attacking all Muslims.

As for Father Christmas - so do I, and I really hope he (she in my
case) brings me a new Sigm 15-30mm EXDG lens this year.

(Sorry for third paragraph, just a bit of light relief - and a wish)

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

Maybe dual standards come into the equation - Hands up all that
have helped fund IRA activities in Britain

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

How can the US fight a war on terrorism when many of their subject
are funding terrorism - IRA

3) Do people believe that Arabs and Jews can live in peace? Is
America's backing of Israel the only reason that the rest of the
world dislikes Americans? Do Israelis believe that we are not
supportive enough?

Arabs obviously wonder - why are the US supporting Jews living in
my country of Palestine who at the same time trying to starve me of
water and kick me off my own land? Rightfully mine.

4) Understanding that there are victims of terrorist attacks around
the world, how can governments around the world stop global
terrorism?

Stop funding it!

Sorry about the length of this post. I certainly don't believe
that people will feel compelled to tackle all of these qustions,
but I am honestly interested in anything anyone has to say on these
issues, regardless of their perspective.

My hope is for a vibrant, productive discussion.

Kind regards to all.

Mike M

IMHO

 

[KCTrio]

I really would like to hear your thoughts on my questions.

Thanks for your thoughtful insights.

Kind regards.

Mike M

I've always admired your contributions to the STF, and you have
enlightened me in many ways. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Kind regards.

Mike M

Most people in the US and in many other parts of the globe might
agree that now, after this horrendous attack on the US, America is
headed towards a war on terrorism, whatever that may entail.

With all of the venom cursing through this forum over the last five
days, I have learned some things, but have also had to sift through
quite a bit of rhetoric. I have many, many questions on my mind
lately, and like many have sought out viewpoints of others in order
to try and make sense of everything. Some people have tried to
post reasonable questions with the apparent aim of being
elucidated. Instead, many obviously well-educated people have been
content to hurl assailments at sincere posters, forwarding their
own agendas.

Americans probably are isolated and ignorant of what most of the
rest of the world thinks of them. So, here we have a global
community of people with a common bond (albeit toys, or digicams),
sharing thoughts, family, photographs and other benign things
suddenly turning into a negative, tension-filled forum where
everyone chooses sides and no one cares to listen to one another.

But I do wish to learn from people on this forum. So here are some
questions that I have been struggling with that I would like other
people's thoughts on.

1) If America is hated by so many thoughout the world, why? Is it
because of our government's policies? Becasue of the way our
citizens behave when they travel? If it's our policies, then what
do others think of the billions of dollars that the US spends every
year on foreign aid, assistance, loans, etc.? Do benefactors of
our largesse wish that we didn't spend this money? Should the US
stop all foreign funds that our governments spends? What about our
troops in foreign countries? Are these the problem? If so, should
we pull all of our troops and let the countries simply defend
themselves? Does anyone find any value in anything the US
government does in the world now or in the past?

It's because the US is the most powerful and richest nation in the
world and everyone likes to take pot-shots at the king of the
hill. If the US had less visibility, I believe there would
be less hatred/jealousy towards them. AFA Americans travelling
abroad, I always found them to be ultra-friendly and very down
to earth -no snobbiness whatsoever ( I live in Canada ). And
as to the level of patriotism the Americans show towards
their country, I am in complete admiration of it personally however
some people become ticked by it ( ie: "we know your the best,
so don't shove it in our faces" attitude..etc.. ). On the
whole, if I had to place a country to rule the world, I would
place the US no.1 because they have the best mix of
civility/strength/fairness/justice of any nation on the face
of the globe.

2) The US is likely to fight a global war on terrorism. I have my
own thoughts on how this might unfold. But, what do others think?
I'm interested in both the logistics and others' thoughts on higher
questions, such as should this war happen, especially those that
have an historical perspective.

The trick to beating terrorism is to have several heavy weight muslim
states condemn it... states like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, Saudia
Arabia etc.. The US now has to use the stick or the threat of
it to make it clear to these nations that they need to come into
the fold...Americans have the might and $$$ to pull it through imo.
Remember, the terrorists only from a small % of the muslim world
so it's up the majority to whip their @ss. Capture bin Laden,
bring him to a world court, have him condemned by the
muslim and world representatives ( including the US of course ),
hang him and make him an example to the the ENTIRE world.
Remember, the key here is to have the muslims condemn one of
their own....or else this thing will never never end.

 

[Peter G]

Yes, I do feel bitter about IRA/INLA activities. I personally have
lost friends and colleagues over the years and feel sorrow those
having lost friends and family in bombings in England and Northern
Ireland.

Looking at the tears and terror recently on TV when children had to
run a religious gauntlet just to get to school I still wonder as to
the future. This was purely one religious group against another.
Maybe one of the many reasons that I lost my faith in religion many
years ago.

As an athiest, I am bewildered by Religion. Its one of the things that makes me most pessimistic about our collective future. I see little evidence of the good will toward fellow man that many claim to foster. They seem so easy to subvert to abhorent causes. From history to present time I see inhumane acts carried out in the name of religion. Abortion clinic bombings(radical christians), Radical Islamic terroists, and Jerry Fallwell all worry me.

Religious freedom should not include the right to Forment Hate. Perhaps the USA should takes steps to show it is serious by charging Fallwell for formenting hate after his recent comments.

Peter