What's wrong with my EOS R7 AF system?

[Curvature]

Hi photographers,

I've just came back from the Pacific Airshow with my R7 and newly bought RF 100-500L. I'd say the lens is SPETICULAR. However I've notice some bugs with my R7. See the pictures below.









In above pictures, one of them is clear and sharp, but the other is not. I've checked the AF points with Canon DPP and it shows both are theorectially, covered by red AF spots. I think about shutter speeds, but those are from the same collection of continuous shots, so should not be that much different.

What happened? Is this due to the limitation of R7 AF system?

Ps. I realized that even 1/1000 may not be enough for aviation photography, even for propellers. To get sharp pictures, 1/2500 is much better. Shooting propellers is so hard! I have to keep shutter speed as low as 1/320 to show the movement blur but cannot get sharp images!

Thanks guys!

Best

 

[Zeee]

Have you shot air shows before? Just curios about your experience. Looks like motion blur to me. Even if IS on and at those shutter speeds any slight movement or jitter on your part will amplify that. I have gotten that on R7 and pretty much every other body including DSLR's.

Or did you use mechanical or electric shutter. The R7 shutter hammers pretty hard.

Others may have better ideas.

 

[Curvature]

Have you shot air shows before? Just curios about your experience. Looks like motion blur to me. Even if IS on and at those shutter speeds any slight movement or jitter on your part will amplify that. I have gotten that on R7 and pretty much every other body including DSLR's.

Or did you use mechanical or electric shutter. The R7 shutter hammers pretty hard.

Others may have better ideas.

Hi,

Thanks for your comment. I've shot airshows for about 5 times. But this is really the first time that I shot with a pro lens, and carefully inspected my photos on my desktop.

I used EFCS (electro 1st curtain) at 8 fps (H) or 15 fps (H+) mode. I've heard about the shutter shock on R7. Yes the shutter sounds pretty noisy. Does shutter shock still appears even at 1/1000 or faster?

As for IS, I activated both the body and the lens. I used MOD 1 on the lens all the time; maybe really should have used MOD 2 for panning.

 

[Planterz]

Shooting demonstration aircraft even at high shutter speeds you'll get some blurry pics. In my somewhat limited experience I got blur on some at 1/2000 and even 1/2500 (jets like F-16s). When you slow way down to 1/500 or lower it takes a lot of luck and skill. So far I'm relying more on luck, multiplied by many shots. If I get one out of a burst at 1/320th that's sharp, I consider that a success, and I'm not always successful. Similarly with fast moving jets at 1/2000, I'm not expecting anywhere near a 100% keeper rate. And that's with my a6700, which has better AF/tracking than the R7. The newer Sony cameras in "airplane" tracking mode actually will try to focus with a small box around the cockpit like it's the "eye" of an animal or human. I don't know if Canons with do the same in "vehicle" detection mode.

The problem is that when shooting aircraft they're probably at such a distance that they're fairly small in the frame. You find the aircraft in the frame, fire off shots without thinking needing to move your aim to follow it exactly because it's being tracked, but the plane is still moving. This'll cause blur. If the plane is flying a predictable path it's easier to track it, but demonstration aircraft love to fly unpredictable paths. That plane is an Extra EA-330/SC, an "unlimited" category aerobatic plane capable of ±10G and excels at that. Using a spot autofocus in this kind of situation might give you better results than tracking AF. Definitely easier said than done in practice.

Final piece of advice is that if you want to slow your shutter speed down to get prop blur, the best way is to use an ND filter, likely 1-3 stops depending on how bright it is outside. That way you're not shrinking your aperture way down. For example, if you wanted to drop from 1/1000 to 1/250, that's 2 stops. If you dropped your aperture 2 stops, you'd be at f10, which with your crop sensor would be f16, introducing softness due to diffraction. An ND 2 filter (magnetic perhaps, for ease), or a variable one (more versatile but you can't use the lens hood) will reduce a stop and you'd only have to drop your aperture to f7.1, or f11.36 equivalent, which would have minimal or negligible noticeable diffraction softening. Here in Arizona (very sunny) I've used an ND8 filter (3 stops) or a variable one and just eyeballed the brightness. I use auto ISO and error on the side of slight underexposure since I can just fix that in Lightroom (and clean up any grain with noise reduction), and so I don't accidentally blow out any highlights.

 

[Zeee]

Have you shot air shows before? Just curios about your experience. Looks like motion blur to me. Even if IS on and at those shutter speeds any slight movement or jitter on your part will amplify that. I have gotten that on R7 and pretty much every other body including DSLR's.

Or did you use mechanical or electric shutter. The R7 shutter hammers pretty hard.

Others may have better ideas.

Hi,

Thanks for your comment. I've shot airshows for about 5 times. But this is really the first time that I shot with a pro lens, and carefully inspected my photos on my desktop.

I used EFCS (electro 1st curtain) at 8 fps (H) or 15 fps (H+) mode. I've heard about the shutter shock on R7. Yes the shutter sounds pretty noisy. Does shutter shock still appears even at 1/1000 or faster?

People did tests of when shutter shock is most prevalent when it comes to shutter speeds. I never really paid attention because I shot using ES full time with my R7. I use EFCS with my R611.

As for IS, I activated both the body and the lens. I used MOD 1 on the lens all the time; maybe really should have used MOD 2 for panning.

A fair bit of people leave at mode 1.

 

[Zeee]

Shooting demonstration aircraft even at high shutter speeds you'll get some blurry pics. In my somewhat limited experience I got blur on some at 1/2000 and even 1/2500 (jets like F-16s). When you slow way down to 1/500 or lower it takes a lot of luck and skill. So far I'm relying more on luck, multiplied by many shots. If I get one out of a burst at 1/320th that's sharp, I consider that a success, and I'm not always successful. Similarly with fast moving jets at 1/2000, I'm not expecting anywhere near a 100% keeper rate. And that's with my a6700, which has better AF/tracking than the R7. The newer Sony cameras in "airplane" tracking mode actually will try to focus with a small box around the cockpit like it's the "eye" of an animal or human. I don't know if Canons with do the same in "vehicle" detection mode.

The problem is that when shooting aircraft they're probably at such a distance that they're fairly small in the frame. You find the aircraft in the frame, fire off shots without thinking needing to move your aim to follow it exactly because it's being tracked, but the plane is still moving. This'll cause blur. If the plane is flying a predictable path it's easier to track it, but demonstration aircraft love to fly unpredictable paths. That plane is an Extra EA-330/SC, an "unlimited" category aerobatic plane capable of ±10G and excels at that. Using a spot autofocus in this kind of situation might give you better results than tracking AF. Definitely easier said than done in practice.

Final piece of advice is that if you want to slow your shutter speed down to get prop blur, the best way is to use an ND filter, likely 1-3 stops depending on how bright it is outside. That way you're not shrinking your aperture way down. For example, if you wanted to drop from 1/1000 to 1/250, that's 2 stops. If you dropped your aperture 2 stops, you'd be at f10, which with your crop sensor would be f16, introducing softness due to diffraction. An ND 2 filter (magnetic perhaps, for ease), or a variable one (more versatile but you can't use the lens hood) will reduce a stop and you'd only have to drop your aperture to f7.1, or f11.36 equivalent, which would have minimal or negligible noticeable diffraction softening. Here in Arizona (very sunny) I've used an ND8 filter (3 stops) or a variable one and just eyeballed the brightness. I use auto ISO and error on the side of slight underexposure since I can just fix that in Lightroom (and clean up any grain with noise reduction), and so I don't accidentally blow out any highlights.

It's tricky. Shooting at slow SS to get blur makes it even more difficult because you have to be super steady. Trying to freeze action with 1000+ won't result in prop blur so it you need to freeze the plane you are better off with even faster SS.

 

[Zeee]

Yesterday I was shooting a woodpecker. It was in deep in tree branches so not much light and it was hammering at a tree. It was not there for very long and by time I moved around to find a clear path I only got about 8 shots in before it took off. ISO 16,000 and 1/4000 SS. Their heads are so fast when hammering away I only had two shots that didn't have some motion blur.

It was with my R6II. I forgot to mention that a few weeks ago I switched it to ES and full fps. I missed a great shot of a bird diving into water. I got it just before and then with head in. I would have liked the beak in water. I try and avoid culling hundreds of shots but that has caught up to me few times.

--
Funny how millions of people on an internet platform where they can communicate instantaneously with people on the other side of the world using incredibly powerful handheld computers linked to orbiting the satellites hundreds of miles in space don’t believe in science. Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

[jonby]

Hi photographers,

I've just came back from the Pacific Airshow with my R7 and newly bought RF 100-500L. I'd say the lens is SPETICULAR. However I've notice some bugs with my R7. See the pictures below.

In above pictures, one of them is clear and sharp, but the other is not. I've checked the AF points with Canon DPP and it shows both are theorectially, covered by red AF spots. I think about shutter speeds, but those are from the same collection of continuous shots, so should not be that much different.

What happened? Is this due to the limitation of R7 AF system?

Ps. I realized that even 1/1000 may not be enough for aviation photography, even for propellers. To get sharp pictures, 1/2500 is much better. Shooting propellers is so hard! I have to keep shutter speed as low as 1/320 to show the movement blur but cannot get sharp images!

Thanks guys!

Best

Definitely motion blur. Movement of the subject across the image plane during exposure. Only way to get more images sharp is to use higher shutter speed or try to improve your holding and tracking technique. A gimbal head or monopod may help, but you might not want to get into that. Shutter shock and focus can of course contribute, but there's no reason to think that was the problem here. You can get shutter shock from EFCS during bursts

It's debatable whether the stabilizer will be helping when tracking in a non-horizontal direction, as it will be trying to hold the image steady, when in fact you want it to move with the subject.

 

[Zeee]

Hi photographers,

I've just came back from the Pacific Airshow with my R7 and newly bought RF 100-500L. I'd say the lens is SPETICULAR. However I've notice some bugs with my R7. See the pictures below.

In above pictures, one of them is clear and sharp, but the other is not. I've checked the AF points with Canon DPP and it shows both are theorectially, covered by red AF spots. I think about shutter speeds, but those are from the same collection of continuous shots, so should not be that much different.

What happened? Is this due to the limitation of R7 AF system?

Ps. I realized that even 1/1000 may not be enough for aviation photography, even for propellers. To get sharp pictures, 1/2500 is much better. Shooting propellers is so hard! I have to keep shutter speed as low as 1/320 to show the movement blur but cannot get sharp images!

Thanks guys!

Best

Definitely motion blur. Movement of the subject across the image plane during exposure. Only way to get more images sharp is to use higher shutter speed or try to improve your holding and tracking technique. A gimbal head or monopod may help, but you might not want to get into that. Shutter shock and focus can of course contribute, but there's no reason to think that was the problem here. You can get shutter shock from EFCS during bursts

It's debatable whether the stabilizer will be helping when tracking in a non-horizontal direction, as it will be trying to hold the image steady, when in fact you want it to move with the subject.

Yes. Stabilizer usage here was likely not at play. If you are panning left to right (most common) or up and down then it stabilized to the right angle of panning. To help with planes moving and slow SS. Most common is the get background blur like car/bike racing. Mode 1 would have been fine in this shot but still wouldn't help motion blur.

 

[Zeee]

In a pinch. Model airshow and I like that plane. I just got there and it was finishing so I was rushing to set up and take a breath to steady myself. Photo AI v1 when it was released that fall. I don't use it but I still have Topaz Sharpen AI which I don't use often. The shot has to be pretty special to keep. I turf any shots know I can get again.







--
Funny how millions of people on an internet platform where they can communicate instantaneously with people on the other side of the world using incredibly powerful handheld computers linked to orbiting the satellites hundreds of miles in space don’t believe in science. Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

[Curvature]

In a pinch. Model airshow and I like that plane. I just got there and it was finishing so I was rushing to set up and take a breath to steady myself. Photo AI v1 when it was released that fall. I don't use it but I still have Topaz Sharpen AI which I don't use often. The shot has to be pretty special to keep. I turf any shots know I can get again.

OMG great shot! What software did you use to turn the left into right? Topaz? Very effective.

 

[Zeee]

In a pinch. Model airshow and I like that plane. I just got there and it was finishing so I was rushing to set up and take a breath to steady myself. Photo AI v1 when it was released that fall. I don't use it but I still have Topaz Sharpen AI which I don't use often. The shot has to be pretty special to keep. I turf any shots know I can get again.

OMG great shot! What software did you use to turn the left into right? Topaz? Very effective.

Yes Topaz Photo AI - version 1. That was released 2020/21. I did not upgrade to the next few versions. Topaz just made some changes to their apps. Photo AI is now Photo. I’m not clear on everything. There are some threads about this in Retouching forums.

--
Funny how millions of people on an internet platform where they can communicate instantaneously with people on the other side of the world using incredibly powerful handheld computers linked to orbiting the satellites hundreds of miles in space don’t believe in science. Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

[Otaraka]

I cant see it being said - Duade Patton does a video on this about how the R7's AF is less reliable at higher framerates, as told by Canon. Slightly overstated with the headline perhaps.

CANON RESPOND, THEIR ADMISSION SURPRISED ME!

You have to shoot at lower framerates with a moving target to get the most reliable focus, otherwise you can get 'pulsing' where sometimes it will hit focus and sometimes it will miss. Its also important to have strong contrast and those shots are where the plane is backlit and lower contrast as a result too. Edit: Of course you can also just accept youll get a few more OOF shots in order to capture the maximum possible - its a tradeoff.

Motion blue seems to be most of the problem here but this is also involved at times.

 

[Zeee]

I cant see it being said - Duade Patton does a video on this about how the R7's AF is less reliable at higher framerates, as told by Canon. Slightly overstated with the headline perhaps.

CANON RESPOND, THEIR ADMISSION SURPRISED ME!

You have to shoot at lower framerates with a moving target to get the most reliable focus, otherwise you can get 'pulsing' where sometimes it will hit focus and sometimes it will miss. Its also important to have strong contrast and those shots are where the plane is backlit and lower contrast as a result too. Edit: Of course you can also just accept youll get a few more OOF shots in order to capture the maximum possible - its a tradeoff.

Motion blue seems to be most of the problem here but this is also involved at times.

He later recanted that I believe. Some other fellow with big beard who is his buddy and does videos said it was not as big an issue. However after 10 shots I did put my R7 on ES forever.

 

[Otaraka]

Not that I know of unless it was a comment somewhere else? Bit cheeky to not update the video if so. Ive had similar experiences.

Thats the other option for sure, with its own tradeoffs of course. I tend to use it more on that camera than my R5, wish I could adjust the exact rate though.

 

[Zeee]

Not that I know of unless it was a comment somewhere else? Bit cheeky to not update the video if so. Ive had similar experiences.

It’s all good. All info is important. I have another one I’ll post if I and find.

Thats the other option for sure, with its own tradeoffs of course. I tend to use it more on that camera than my R5, wish I could adjust the exact rate though.

 

[Zeee]

 

[Zeee]

Found it. I deleted a bunch of videos when I sold my R7.

 

[Otaraka]

I think that one is more about using ES to get best sharpness, with the usual tradeoffs given readout speed?

Edit: Ah you did two. The first seems to be more a disagreement about whether the R7 as noticeably different. Can't see where Duade said he was wrong, its more a discussion of why its happening, ie probably a result of the R7's slower readout speed.

From one of the comments to illustrate:

"The issue is not obtaining focus, but the confirmed in-focus AF point not coincident with the plane of focus i.e. what Duade comprehensively demonstrated. I have also seen it in good light too, and in one-shot as well as servo AF. By following your advice and Duade's I have managed to reduce this, and I suspect it is as you say down to the sensor readout speed."

 

[R2D2]

Hi photographers,

I've just came back from the Pacific Airshow with my R7 and newly bought RF 100-500L. I'd say the lens is SPETICULAR. However I've notice some bugs with my R7.

Not to worry. It's not the camera, it's YOU! :-D

...and the rest of us poor blokes who shoot propeller aircraft! ;-)

See the pictures below.





In above pictures, one of them is clear and sharp, but the other is not. I've checked the AF points with Canon DPP and it shows both are theorectially, covered by red AF spots. I think about shutter speeds, but those are from the same collection of continuous shots, so should not be that much different.

Both frames are in focus. This is motion blur. The telltale is in the highlights on the tailwheel. You can see the direction of the motion there (and also on the lines that match the direction of the movement, as they are sharp).

What happened? Is this due to the limitation of R7 AF system?

Not with this particular shot. There are a couple of changes you could make in the Menu (I can detail them if you'd like), but they aren't hyper-critical to what went wrong here.

Ps. I realized that even 1/1000 may not be enough for aviation photography, even for propellers. To get sharp pictures, 1/2500 is much better.

1/4000 is my preferred shutter speed. Especially good for jets. Shoot prop planes at 1/4000 and you'll end up with a card full of sharp planes! But frozen props...

Shooting propellers is so hard! I have to keep shutter speed as low as 1/320 to show the movement blur but cannot get sharp images!

There we have it. The issue is in the tracking. 1/320 is my preferred SS for aerobatics too (for decent prop blur), but blurry pics are the rule. Any lower than 1/320 and keeper rates plummet even more (I've tried at 1/250 and even 1/125). Heck, it's hard enough at 1/500 or even 1/1000 (as in your sample).

As has been mentioned previously, low keeper rates are The Norm when shooting slow-shutter aerobatics. All you can do is work on your tracking. You can see how the plane has "moved" in the frame between the 2 shots you posted. Try to keep your subject in exactly the same spot in the frame as best as you can (or else you get the equivalent of subject motion blur/ camera shake). The better you are at tracking, the better your keeper rate.

Yes, it's hard as h#ll to do! Displaying the 3x3 EVF grid can help. Electronic shutter can help (smoother view). But with eShutter on the R7 your rolling shutter will be baaad. So stick with EFCS and persevere. Practice on anything moving as much as you can.


1/4000


1/320


1/320


1/320


1/320


Back to jets!

Wanna know why you don't see any blurry pictures here?!

I DELETED them all!!! :-D

Holler back with any questions,

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
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