V3 optimal aperture setting at Program mode?

[Don Erway]

I'll take a stab.

The lower left is the f8. It lacks contrast/sharpness slightly.

This is a diagonal slice and recombination of two shots. One side
is f4 and the other is f8.

--
Don Erway
http://www.pbase.com/derway/kona_underwater_g2

 

[falderal]

This is a diagonal slice and recombination of two shots. One side
is f4 and the other is f8.



Which side is which? If the stated 'problem' exists it should
require no effort to distinguish them based on the sharpness.

I don't think it is that apparent and, as such, the so-called
aperture 'problem' is NOT significant to the use of the V3 in any
circumstance.

First of all please forgive me for posting your images. I think the photos you posted demonstrate the effect well. It's not very apparent in your split screen of the tele pictures in part because they are reduced but I think it is very apparent in the wide shots. Here is a full resolution crop out of your 2 wide angle shots.



I did some tests myself and it is the most apparent on objects that are far away from the camera.

I've had my V3 for 2 weeks now and I have yet to come into a situation where the camera has selected F8 in sunlight. It's usually somewhere around 3.2. I like this camera alot.

-Chris

 

[stan ames]

I have to agree with Don and Chris. When I looked at Meryl's original images the difference was broadly the same as other tests but the subject matter was not as finely detailed as in the other comparisons so it was only obvious in some areas.

We have now seen three sets of comparisons that show exactly the same effect. Not an "earth shattering" problem but enough to make it worth avoiding if you need good resolution.

Until today, I had not seen my V3 select f8 on auto but this morning it did, twice, on two landscape shots it selected 1/250th @ f8.

Like Chris, I like it a lot and at f4 and wider the detail is great.

Stan
Live, learn & pass it on

This is a diagonal slice and recombination of two shots. One side
is f4 and the other is f8.



Which side is which? If the stated 'problem' exists it should
require no effort to distinguish them based on the sharpness.

I don't think it is that apparent and, as such, the so-called
aperture 'problem' is NOT significant to the use of the V3 in any
circumstance.

First of all please forgive me for posting your images. I think the
photos you posted demonstrate the effect well. It's not very
apparent in your split screen of the tele pictures in part because
they are reduced but I think it is very apparent in the wide shots.
Here is a full resolution crop out of your 2 wide angle shots.



I did some tests myself and it is the most apparent on objects that
are far away from the camera.

I've had my V3 for 2 weeks now and I have yet to come into a
situation where the camera has selected F8 in sunlight. It's
usually somewhere around 3.2. I like this camera alot.

-Chris

 

[Meryl Arbing]

As long as people have enough information,I am confident that they can make up thier own minds. As you say, I don't consider the results serious enough to lose sleep over and certainly not enough to warrant returning the camera.

It is like one of those optical illusions, once somebody tells you where to look, you see it everywhere. I doubt is anyone would have noticed had it not become a tempest in a teacup.

We have now seen three sets of comparisons that show exactly the
same effect. Not an "earth shattering" problem but enough to make
it worth avoiding if you need good resolution.

Until today, I had not seen my V3 select f8 on auto but this
morning it did, twice, on two landscape shots it selected 1/250th @
f8.

Like Chris, I like it a lot and at f4 and wider the detail is great.

Stan
Live, learn & pass it on

This is a diagonal slice and recombination of two shots. One side
is f4 and the other is f8.



Which side is which? If the stated 'problem' exists it should
require no effort to distinguish them based on the sharpness.

I don't think it is that apparent and, as such, the so-called
aperture 'problem' is NOT significant to the use of the V3 in any
circumstance.

First of all please forgive me for posting your images. I think the
photos you posted demonstrate the effect well. It's not very
apparent in your split screen of the tele pictures in part because
they are reduced but I think it is very apparent in the wide shots.
Here is a full resolution crop out of your 2 wide angle shots.



I did some tests myself and it is the most apparent on objects that
are far away from the camera.

I've had my V3 for 2 weeks now and I have yet to come into a
situation where the camera has selected F8 in sunlight. It's
usually somewhere around 3.2. I like this camera alot.

-Chris

--

 

[Meryl Arbing]

You are correct. But is one side GREAT and the other side AWWFULLL!! or is there simply a noticible difference..side by side?

The lower left is the f8. It lacks contrast/sharpness slightly.

This is a diagonal slice and recombination of two shots. One side
is f4 and the other is f8.

--
Don Erway
http://www.pbase.com/derway/kona_underwater_g2

 

[Meryl Arbing]

I am pleased that you took the time to examine the shots. If, as you say, this is the effect that was getting people so upset then it is nothing. It is no wonder that people were having a hard time reproducing it.

Part of what defines something as a 'problem' is the amount of trouble that somebody has to go to in order to find it. Large Format photographers have to deal with diffraction issues all the time but they understand that, at normal viewing distances, the issue is not that earth shattering. of course there are always those people who will walk right up to a gallery print and get as close as they can. "Grain sniffers" they call them. Every piture, no matter what camera has taken it (digital or film) will display some sort of issue if you enlarge or magnify it enough. Look closely at magazine or newspaper photos and you will see the dots used to form the image.

If somebody has to enlarge the image in order to see the problem then it is not worth worrying about because they have too much time on thier hands.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the solution...now maybe we can get on with taking pictures.

First of all please forgive me for posting your images. I think the

photos you posted demonstrate the effect well. It's not very
apparent in your split screen of the tele pictures in part because
they are reduced but I think it is very apparent in the wide shots.
Here is a full resolution crop out of your 2 wide angle shots.

I did some tests myself and it is the most apparent on objects that
are far away from the camera.

I've had my V3 for 2 weeks now and I have yet to come into a
situation where the camera has selected F8 in sunlight. It's
usually somewhere around 3.2. I like this camera alot.

-Chris

 

[stan ames]

Meryl

You have hit the nail on the head, AS LONG AS PEOPLE HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION! That's what dcresource and and the rest of us have been trying to facilitate. I must disagree about the importance of the issue. I was disappointed as soon as I saw the first f8 test images, but as soon as I saw the f8/f4 comparisons I went ahead and bought the camera.

The effect is relatively small but if you want to buy a 7Mp camera its seems likely that high resolution would be one of your interests. If that's the case you should be made aware of the limitations at small apertures.

It's not about "loosing sleep" it's about making informed decisions based on reliable data. It's not about "tempests in a teacup" it's about using this valuable forum to contribute carefully considered ideas and information. I'm disappointed that you feel it necessary to try to marginalise the efforts of other, well meaning, contributors and reviewers in this way.

Stan
Live, learn and pass it on

It is like one of those optical illusions, once somebody tells you
where to look, you see it everywhere. I doubt is anyone would have
noticed had it not become a tempest in a teacup.

I have to agree with Don and Chris. When I looked at Meryl's
original images the difference was broadly the same as other tests
but the subject matter was not as finely detailed as in the other
comparisons so it was only obvious in some areas.

We have now seen three sets of comparisons that show exactly the
same effect. Not an "earth shattering" problem but enough to make
it worth avoiding if you need good resolution.

Until today, I had not seen my V3 select f8 on auto but this
morning it did, twice, on two landscape shots it selected 1/250th @
f8.

Like Chris, I like it a lot and at f4 and wider the detail is great.

Stan
Live, learn & pass it on

 

[imbsysop]

I have to agree with Don and Chris. When I looked at Meryl's
original images the difference was broadly the same as other tests
but the subject matter was not as finely detailed as in the other
comparisons so it was only obvious in some areas.

We have now seen three sets of comparisons that show exactly the
same effect. Not an "earth shattering" problem but enough to make
it worth avoiding if you need good resolution.

Until today, I had not seen my V3 select f8 on auto but this
morning it did, twice, on two landscape shots it selected 1/250th @
f8.

the picture(s) on dcresource suggest thi smaal aperture thing happens in P mode nothing is said about auto mode as a lot of people seemd to understand ..

 

[stan ames]

imbsysop
Thanks for drawing attention to this point, I stand corrected.

I have not seen f8 selected in P mode as yet, but it has appeared infrequently in auto. I hope this clarifies any ambiguity.
Regards
Stan
Live, learn & pass it on

the picture(s) on dcresource suggest thi smaal aperture thing
happens in P mode nothing is said about auto mode as a lot of
people seemd to understand ..

--
Live, learn & pass it on

 

[Meryl Arbing]

I suppose it is a question of perspective. There was a lot of catastrophisation over this issue which I think we both agree that the "effect is relatively small"...probably too small to notice if the spotlight hadn't been turned upon it with such intensity. It was concerning that the issue was being presented as an insurmountable problem with no workaround. When small issues are magnified to huge proportions, then the exaggeration serves only to frighten people rather than inform them.

I tried to tell people at the very beginning of all of this that no camera was perfect and if that was what they expected then they were setting themselves up for a lot of disappointments. I respect the attempts of people to come to the truth of the matter and, I think that finally, we have achieved some perspective on the issue.

The effect does NOT render the V3 unusable or unsuitable.

Meryl
You have hit the nail on the head, AS LONG AS PEOPLE HAVE ENOUGH
INFORMATION! That's what dcresource and and the rest of us have
been trying to facilitate. I must disagree about the importance of
the issue. I was disappointed as soon as I saw the first f8 test
images, but as soon as I saw the f8/f4 comparisons I went ahead and
bought the camera.

The effect is relatively small but if you want to buy a 7Mp camera
its seems likely that high resolution would be one of your
interests. If that's the case you should be made aware of the
limitations at small apertures.

It's not about "loosing sleep" it's about making informed decisions
based on reliable data. It's not about "tempests in a teacup" it's
about using this valuable forum to contribute carefully considered
ideas and information. I'm disappointed that you feel it necessary
to try to marginalise the efforts of other, well meaning,
contributors and reviewers in this way.

Stan
Live, learn and pass it on

 

[Wallace Ross]

I had an opertunity to do some tests outdoors today and yes there is more defraction at f8 than f4 (roughly the calculated optimum aperature assuming about 450 line pairs). I took all the pictures in program mode with a tripod ect.... Now that I've done that I can stop waisting anymore of my time and just shoot some more pictures. Every time I wanted f8 I had to force the camera to select that aperature. I also had to look at the images pretty hard to find the difference.

Overall I am very happy with my V3 so far.
Maybe after I scan all my slides I will sell my film scanner

Hi,
anyone can list a few scenarios where the Sony V3 will use f4 for
its program mode?

anyone notice any visible difference in their samples
photos?...other than dcresouce...

thanks

 

[Meryl Arbing]

That is probably the most sensible suggestions I have heard.

This weekend here in Toronto, they are having the 100th anniversary of our Santa Claus parade. It should be a good photo op and I will be there...outside with my V3 and my Contax film cameras.

Overall I am very happy with my V3 so far.
Maybe after I scan all my slides I will sell my film scanner

Hi,
anyone can list a few scenarios where the Sony V3 will use f4 for
its program mode?

anyone notice any visible difference in their samples
photos?...other than dcresouce...

thanks

 

[GaryW]

Meryl Arbing wrote:
....

I tried to tell people at the very beginning of all of this that no
camera was perfect and if that was what they expected then they

I've been looking at similar cameras, and none of them are perfect. If you go to the Canon group, the "similar" G6 is having it's own issues with blurriness in certain situations.

There is no one perfect camera. Either they're too big, too much F-stop, too slow, too whatever.... you find one that is perfect for one or maybe even most of your desired features, and there will be something else that is less than desirable. Oh well. I guess the thing to do is to decide that if you're picking on very small flaws, are they REALLY that bad? If so, what do you get? I'd like to know what the perfect camera is, but I'm not lugging around a dSLR and a big bag of stuff. Count me out.

were setting themselves up for a lot of disappointments. I respect
the attempts of people to come to the truth of the matter and, I
think that finally, we have achieved some perspective on the issue.

The effect does NOT render the V3 unusable or unsuitable.

You're right, the effect is very subtle. Even with the effect it hardly ruins the picture. LOOK HOW MUCH YOU GUYS HAVE TO ZOOM IN! You'd never see this in a 3MP camera because it'd never have the resolution in the first place to digitally zoom that far. So, on the off chance you use P mode and it chooses F8 without your knowledge it probably isn't the end of the world (as long as it isn't always choosing F8).

I always set my aperture as low as possible anyway, coz I take a lot of low-light photos. I am in quite a quandry trying to decide what might be best, but this F8 issue just seems like a non-issue in my decision-making (based on the fact that people have posted that it rarely chooses F8 on purpose).

--
Gary W.

 

[Wallace Ross]

Just to let you know how subtle this is I choose the image where it was the most dramatic f8 1/60 vs f3.5 1/320 and applied USM in photoshop with a setting of .5 pixels and 75% and I couldn't tell them apart anymore. It is interesting to note that the 7 Mpixel jpeg files tend to be 5 to 10% smaller when the aperature is f8. And no I'm not planning on doing a study on this. I just don't want other people, who have bought this camera too, to feel like I did for a bit like maybe I had rushed into it and made a mistake. I just wish I had more time to go out taking pictures.

This weekend here in Toronto, they are having the 100th anniversary
of our Santa Claus parade. It should be a good photo op and I will
be there...outside with my V3 and my Contax film cameras.

Overall I am very happy with my V3 so far.
Maybe after I scan all my slides I will sell my film scanner

Hi,
anyone can list a few scenarios where the Sony V3 will use f4 for
its program mode?

anyone notice any visible difference in their samples
photos?...other than dcresouce...

thanks