Using bulb flash on an A7 R

[Misterpeter]

Hi out there! I really miss using bulb flash on the Sony. I haven’t yet found a way to do it. Anyone have any advice or help (apart from giving up!) ? Thanks in advance Peter

 

[ActionPhotoPassion]

What is bulb with flash?

Probably using bulb with a LED continue light you meant as I don't see any speedlight lighting for instance a full 1sec or more exposure?

Or you mean bracketing with flash maybe?

 

[lehill]

Hi out there! I really miss using bulb flash on the Sony. I haven’t yet found a way to do it. Anyone have any advice or help (apart from giving up!) ? Thanks in advance Peter

I don't understand either. Bare bulb flash? Flashbulbs?

Flash can't be used with electronic shutter or silent mode. But the A7R doesn't seem to have this capability.

Using flash while in bulb mode? I don't have an A7R, but I tried it with two of my Sony cameras, and it works as expected. Flash fires at shutter press, shutter doesn't close until I release the shutter button.

I suppose we need some more details.

 

[Misterpeter]

Hello there! I actually meant neither of those. I am talking about the old-fashioned blue (for use with colour film) flashbulbs that produced all the light - like an electronic flash does - to ‘expose’ a picture, back then on film, of course. I use them for roomy interiors like in churches or exhibitions, where their long period of light emission has a couple of advantages. Firstly, they put out a large amount of light over a long period, giving massive ‘filling’ of large areas. Secondly, the pictures lack the harsh, dark shadows thrown from instantaneous flashes that give those flash pictures a ‘cardboard cutout’ look, even when the bulb-flash is mounted atop the camera as a single flash… and, since the reflectors are quite large, even camera-mounted, there is no question of ‘red-eye. Add to that, the fun and interest - especially with groups of children for kindergarten group photos - and you have a winning combination that keeps the kids focussed on what is going on

I realise that all of this can be ‘cured’ or solved with modern systems like mine, but the cure relies on multiple, expensive flashguns and complicated setups, not to mention the calculations.

Peter

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

You would get more and better responses if you posted in the Studio and Lighting Techniques forum, but:

I actually meant neither of those. I am talking about the old-fashioned blue (for use with colour film) flashbulbs that produced all the light - like an electronic flash does - to ‘expose’ a picture, back then on film, of course.

To really work correctly, old-type flashbulbs require the camera to have (most commonly, AFAIK) 'M-sync'. I am not aware of any digital camera that has M-sync or any other flashbulb-appropriate mode; they all (or at least, all with focal-plane mechanical shutters, such as all A7R-series cameras) have X-sync, for use with regular electronic (AFAIK typically xenon-tube) flashes. I suppose if the shutter speed is slow enough (and you don't have it set for rear-curtain sync), then it may not matter. I don't know how slow the shutter speed must be for that to be the case. You could experiment.

There's also the issue of the flash trigger voltage being safe for the camera, or not. Back in the day you could buy a Wein Safe Sync, attach it to the camera, and attach the flash to it. Apparently a couple of versions remain available (e.g. at B&H).

I use them for roomy interiors like in churches or exhibitions, where their long period of light emission has a couple of advantages. Firstly, they put out a large amount of light over a long period, giving massive ‘filling’ of large areas. Secondly, the pictures lack the harsh, dark shadows thrown from instantaneous flashes that give those flash pictures a ‘cardboard cutout’ look, even when the bulb-flash is mounted atop the camera as a single flash.

None of that is true. What matters is the reflectors, lenses (if any), and light modifiers around the flash; and the position and direction of the flash relative to the subject(s). The time period has zero to do with 'filling' or anything like that. The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second, or about 3.0x10^8 m/s. It sounds like a 'bare bulb' electronic flash, or something like a Godox AD200 with the bare bulb head, would work equally well or better.

Add to that, the fun and interest - especially with groups of children for kindergarten group photos - and you have a winning combination that keeps the kids focussed on what is going on

Then go all out and get some really old-school flash powder!

I realise that all of this can be ‘cured’ or solved with modern systems like mine, but the cure relies on multiple, expensive flashguns and complicated setups, not to mention the calculations.

I don't think there's anything that a single flashbulb can do that a single bare-bulb electronic flash cannot do about equally.

 

[Misterpeter]

Thanks for your input! However, I must admit to not carrying a trailer-full of ‘light-modifiers’ and flashes with me into a church or exhibition, taking up a 21 square feet of floor space to take a photo - especially as I move around to take photos. Hey, I’m on holiday, not on a professional shoot with all expenses paid and the annoying public kept away from the area…

I would also disagree with the assumption that the duration of the light output is irrelevant to the total amount of light received on the photographic medium chosen. What else do you do when you alter the shutter speed? Of course the intensity of the light and the distance from the subject are also key factors.

OK, so the power of the flash is, I’m sure we all agree, is relevant, as are the reflector and where placed and the direction pointed. Wit a bulb flash, these last factors are less hugely critical than with an electronic flash of any kind. Shutter speeds of less than 1/30th are a must, especially as the flash takes time from releasing the shutter to being triggered and to evolve to the maximum output and then to ‘die out’. Hence on older SLRs the added FP (focal plane) flash synch which fires differently to the x setting to allow for this. Any speed less than 1/30th is possible, by the way, giving a lot more room to manoeuvre for creativity and influence on the results you are after.

Bulbs vary in size, output, construction and colour depending on requirements and calculations according to guide number are always necessary if you don’t have a flash meter and some spare bulbs for testing… the bulbs cost anything from ‘pennies’ to a number of Euros/Pounds/Dollars each, depending on luck and not forgetting postage from (mostly) the USA, where they can still be found for a price.



here are a few pics of possible setups. The white bulbs are originally for B/W and the blue for daylight film, with automatic white balance more-or-less irrelevant these digital days. The small white bulb next to the blue ‘FP’ one is ‘flink’ one - closer to electronic flash duration.






This one is for serious business! A Dutch-made PF 100 E monster




White ‘flink’ bulb and blue 25b ‘Press’ FP.




simple tiny bulb for fit-flash or small, close groups




This is what I would love to do, but is a no-NO! due to current damage issues. I will have to use flash cables with remote triggers, due to the different flash hot-shoe design , but am still working on that one!

 

[Architeuthis]

Thanks for your input! However, I must admit to not carrying a trailer-full of ‘light-modifiers’ and flashes with me into a church or exhibition, taking up a 21 square feet of floor space to take a photo - especially as I move around to take photos. Hey, I’m on holiday, not on a professional shoot with all expenses paid and the annoying public kept away from the area…

I would also disagree with the assumption that the duration of the light output is irrelevant to the total amount of light received on the photographic medium chosen. What else do you do when you alter the shutter speed? Of course the intensity of the light and the distance from the subject are also key factors.
OK, so the power of the flash is, I’m sure we all agree, is relevant, as are the reflector and where placed and the direction pointed. Wit a bulb flash, these last factors are less hugely critical than with an electronic flash of any kind. Shutter speeds of less than 1/30th are a must, especially as the flash takes time from releasing the shutter to being triggered and to evolve to the maximum output and then to ‘die out’. Hence on older SLRs the added FP (focal plane) flash synch which fires differently to the x setting to allow for this. Any speed less than 1/30th is possible, by the way, giving a lot more room to manoeuvre for creativity and influence on the results you are after.

Bulbs vary in size, output, construction and colour depending on requirements and calculations according to guide number are always necessary if you don’t have a flash meter and some spare bulbs for testing… the bulbs cost anything from ‘pennies’ to a number of Euros/Pounds/Dollars each, depending on luck and not forgetting postage from (mostly) the USA, where they can still be found for a price.

here are a few pics of possible setups. The white bulbs are originally for B/W and the blue for daylight film, with automatic white balance more-or-less irrelevant these digital days. The small white bulb next to the blue ‘FP’ one is ‘flink’ one - closer to electronic flash duration.

Looks quite nostalgic...

You know you can use a small electronic flash with a blue filter (provided with the flash), to get at least the same (normally better), results?

Much cheaper and better for environment...

e.g. https://www.galaxus.at/de/s1/produc...33UXlqIeyEBz_YF8XoeviGX-zp8kLMtsaAkR0EALw_wcB

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

Thanks for your input!

You're welcome.

However, I must admit to not carrying a trailer-full of ‘light-modifiers’ and flashes with me into a church or exhibition, taking up a 21 square feet of floor space to take a photo - especially as I move around to take photos. Hey, I’m on holiday, not on a professional shoot with all expenses paid and the annoying public kept away from the area…

Seeing the photos you posted of what you're using now, I think you could find an electronic flash rig that would provide similar results without requiring a trailer full of anything. Let's examine what you have.

You mentioned avoiding red-eye. The key to that is having the flash away from the lens axis. Your rig has, what, about 1 ft / 30 cm from the center of the flashbulb to the lens axis? Just use a bracket to put an electronic flash in a similar position. You mentioned soft shadows. That flash has a reflector that must be about 8 inches / 20 cm in diameter behind the bulb. A bare-bulb electronic flash with a similar reflector will provide similarly-soft shadows.

Sure, if you use a built-in flash on any camera, you have issues. Even a regular shoe-mount flash, at least when mounted in the camera-top shoe and pointed straight forward, will only partially mitigate them. But an electronic bare-bulb flash with a big reflector mounted on a bracket a foot away from the lens gets you what you want. I'm not too familiar with the options in this segment, but you might look at an electronic flash like a Godox Lux Master Retro, Godox Lux Senior Retro, or Quantum Qflash paired with a flash bracket from a company like Vello, Stroboframe, or Custom Brackets.

I would also disagree with the assumption that the duration of the light output is irrelevant to the total amount of light received on the photographic medium chosen. What else do you do when you alter the shutter speed?

Intensity and duration of light output received by the camera affect exposure. But electronic flashes put out their light fast enough, with an extremely high intensity, that with any 'regular' shutter such as on any A7R-series, shutter speed up to their maximum sync speed, it doesn't matter. Flash bulbs are slower, but probably (there was a range back in the day) fast enough that it doesn't matter too much in 'typical' shutter speed ranges--well sort of because those were slower.

OK, so the power of the flash is, I’m sure we all agree, is relevant, as are the reflector and where placed and the direction pointed. Wit a bulb flash, these last factors are less hugely critical than with an electronic flash of any kind. Shutter speeds of less than 1/30th are a must, especially as the flash takes time from releasing the shutter to being triggered and to evolve to the maximum output and then to ‘die out’. Hence on older SLRs the added FP (focal plane) flash synch which fires differently to the x setting to allow for this.

Right, like M-sync instead of X-sync, as I mentioned. And if you don't have M-sync (or whatever is appropriate for the particular flashbulb, then you have to use first-curtain X-sync and a fairly slow shutter speed. That's not ideal, not least because subjects can react to it.

Any speed less than 1/30th is possible, by the way, giving a lot more room to manoeuvre for creativity and influence on the results you are after.

You can use slower shutter speeds with an electronic flash, and create effects by changing front first-curtain to second-curtain sync.

Bulbs vary in size, output, construction and colour depending on requirements

Same as electronic flashes. You can gel them to change the color. The power might range from maybe say 6 Joules per flash maximum for a built-in flash to 60 for a typical full-size shoe-mount flash to up to 600 or so for a battery-powered monolight to considerably more for studio-type flashes.

You are welcome to light with whatever you like, and you can probably work up a rig to use flashbulbs with an A7R-series digital camera. I'm just saying: be aware of what that does and does not get you, and the reasonable alternatives.