Using a Flash on Fash Moving Targets (Toddlers!)

[Zoba132]

Hi everyone!

So based on the previous thread, I picked GODOX TT350f and has been playing around it for a week now. I spend time reading and watching Flash tutorials: TTL, when to use manual mode, Flash Power lever, use Shutter speed to properly expose the background, etc etc.

I'm working on all of those, but on stationary targets. The reason I got the flash to being with, was to help me taking pictures of my kids in-door. In order to avoid blurry pictures. as they moving a LOT, I mostly set my shutter speed to be around 250-500 in day light.

But as Shutter speed used to expose the background when using flash - at least on the tutorials I have seen - I'm not sure how to apply all that when I actually NEED a specific shutter speed. Also, Above 250x, mean I will be starting to see black bar.

So I guess what I'm looking for is couple of guidelines how to turn those stationary photography flash tips, into situations where shutter speed is important for me (or perhaps a link for something that talk about those object).

Thanks!

 

[LynniePad]

Pan like, clicking half-way the shutter speed for focus and then move around? Is there a difference if the object moves and the camera is static vs if the object is static and the camera is moving? both will cause "motion blur"?

Again, you are over-complicating the scenario.

Just follow the movement of the toddler and take the shot; the flash will be effective in stopping the toddler motion, but the background will be blurred.

No flash used, but here’s an extreme example of successful panning. The plane was moving at 400km/h and was passing quite close. Without panning, there would be no chance of getting the subject in frame. Shooting continuous mode at 10 frames/sec.

Can you see why I used a relatively slow shutter speed of 1/400sec.?

 

[Bob]

The flash itself will prevent any motion blur.

 

[leorimkus]

I agree with what most have said here:

• Bounce the flash so you get better light from it.
• Shoot at your sync speed.
• Practice

In addition: shoot in TTL mode, and lock your ISO down. If your Fuji is anything like my Nikon, if you are in AutoISO it will up the ISO before it adds power to the flash, so instead of a photo where the flash did the heavy lifting with respect to the light, you'll get a high-ISO shot and the flash acts like fill.

Good luck and happy shooting!

Actually I would advise to raise ISO to 800-1600. That would increase effective flash power. TT350 isn't too powerfull, especially if bounced. If properly exposed noise wouldn't be an issue.

I never use auto ISO with flash. It's too unpredictable, you never know what the ballance between flash and ambient light will be.

 

[LordKOTL]

I agree with what most have said here:

• Bounce the flash so you get better light from it.
• Shoot at your sync speed.
• Practice

In addition: shoot in TTL mode, and lock your ISO down. If your Fuji is anything like my Nikon, if you are in AutoISO it will up the ISO before it adds power to the flash, so instead of a photo where the flash did the heavy lifting with respect to the light, you'll get a high-ISO shot and the flash acts like fill.

Good luck and happy shooting!

Actually I would advise to raise ISO to 800-1600. That would increase effective flash power. TT350 isn't too powerfull, especially if bounced. If properly exposed noise wouldn't be an issue.

I never use auto ISO with flash. It's too unpredictable, you never know what the ballance between flash and ambient light will be.

When I said "Lock the ISO down", I meant to ensure that you're not in AutoISO. Depending on what I'm shooting, or how fast I want the flash pulse I will use ISOs over base, but it will be locked down to a specific iso number, not floating like in AutoISO. I'd also use flash exposure compensation as-needed. You might get into a situation where you up the ISO but the lightness doesn't change higher, or you get blown highlights.

Overall I think we're saying the same thing. :-D

Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[LordKOTL]

Your options are almost limitless, unless you have a strongly colored wall.

Amen. OK, all you bounce flash gurus, WHAT DO YOU DO if the walls and ceiling are green, or too far away, or varying in distance?

Looping back, I'd try to improvise. It might be possible to use WB to alter the color cast enough so that your subject doesn't look green. Gelling could be an option...if you have gels handy of course. Is there something else white/grey you could bounce off of? Hell, I've heard stories of photogs using someone wearing a white T-shirt as a reflector for their flashes.

I think being able to think outside the box helps.

 

[User4286416121]

Can you see why I used a relatively slow shutter speed of 1/400sec.?

Very nice!

Answer: used a "slow" shutter speed to get the prop blur. Had to pan to keep the rest steady. Nicely done. Not easy. And requires good technique/(great technique) and good focus speed.

Also important for helicopter pictures. Want the rotors moving otherwise it looks like a cut out...

 

[LynniePad]

Can you see why I used a relatively slow shutter speed of 1/400sec.?

Very nice!

Answer: used a "slow" shutter speed to get the prop blur. Had to pan to keep the rest steady. Nicely done. Not easy. And requires good technique/(great technique) and good focus speed.

I can reveal that there were about 400 shots in the Spitfire series. Other photographers in the group used even slower SS with some success.

 

[Zoba132]

e.

When I said "Lock the ISO down", I meant to ensure that you're not in AutoISO. Depending on what I'm shooting, or how fast I want the flash pulse I will use ISOs over base, but it will be locked down to a specific iso number, not floating like in AutoISO. I'd also use flash exposure compensation as-needed. You might get into a situation where you up the ISO but the lightness doesn't change higher, or you get blown highlights.

Overall I think we're saying the same thing. :-D

Good luck and happy shooting!

Is there a reason not to always use the lowest ISO possible with a flash? or only when flash exposure compensation is not enough to give you a good results? Also - I think someone mentioned (I could be wrong) that ISO effect flash re-cycle time? (maybe because the Camera takes more time to process a picture?)

 

[JustUs7]

Sometimes iso helps with ambient light. With iso too low, the flash power goes up to compensate and can look harsh. Honestly, I set iso to 640 for flash because that’s where photonstophotos shows my last sensor performance peak before it starts to head south. 640 isn’t far off iso 100 in dynamic range for my camera.

 

[LordKOTL]

e.

When I said "Lock the ISO down", I meant to ensure that you're not in AutoISO. Depending on what I'm shooting, or how fast I want the flash pulse I will use ISOs over base, but it will be locked down to a specific iso number, not floating like in AutoISO. I'd also use flash exposure compensation as-needed. You might get into a situation where you up the ISO but the lightness doesn't change higher, or you get blown highlights.

Overall I think we're saying the same thing. :-D

Good luck and happy shooting!

Is there a reason not to always use the lowest ISO possible with a flash? or only when flash exposure compensation is not enough to give you a good results? Also - I think someone mentioned (I could be wrong) that ISO effect flash re-cycle time? (maybe because the Camera takes more time to process a picture?)

There are a couple of reasons that I can come up with:

1. You don't have enough flash power: hypothetically let's say that you can't open the aperture up more, and increasing the shutter will create enough of a background distraction. But, you want the image lighter overall, so upping the ISO will do that.
2. You want a faster flash pulse and/or a faster flash recycle. Your numbers will vary, but if I'm using Godox AD200 (I use this pocketstrobe as an example because it gives a readout of flash pulse time), I know that at max power the flash pule time is ~1/250 of a second, and the recycle time is ~1/2 seconds. If I'm using minimum flash power the flash pules is something like ~1/32000 of a second (I don't have it handy right now to get exact values), and the recycle time is faster than my camera can machine gun out photos. If I'm taking a photo of something that ~1/250 of a second would blur, I can up the ISO and lower the power and get a faster flash pulse, or if I want to rapid-fire flash shots.
   
   Naturally, your flash will have different powers and times than the pocketstrobe I mentioned, but the net affect is similar. Everything else being equal (aperture, Scene illuminance, shutter speed, subject), the lower the ISO the more power the flash uses per pop, which means a longer flash pulse and a longer recharge time because the capacitor is drained. The higher the ISO the less power per pop, meaning faster flash pulse and quicker recharge time.

I believe in a lot of more modern cameras the difference in quality between base ISO and 1-2 stops up on the iso is negligible in most circumstances. You may want to start your experimenting at base iso, but if you need more overall lightness or a quicker flash pulse and you can't do it via aperture, shutter, or the flash itself raising the ISO is definitely a way to do it.

 

[LordKOTL]

Sometimes iso helps with ambient light. With iso too low, the flash power goes up to compensate and can look harsh. Honestly, I set iso to 640 for flash because that’s where photonstophotos shows my last sensor performance peak before it starts to head south. 640 isn’t far off iso 100 in dynamic range for my camera.

Exactly. It could be said that you have enough headroom to go from base (100?) to 640 with negligible impact on image quality. If dragging the shutter or a wider aperture isn't an option I'll up the ISO if I want to balance ambient with flash a bit better.

Personally, I'm usually trying to kill the ambient and I'm bouncing or modifying the flash in a way that won't make it too harsh, so in my case I'll up the ISO if I need a quicker recycle, a faster flash pulse, or if the flash just isn't getting the power I need to illuminate things.

 

[skyglider]

I'm working on all of those, but on stationary targets. The reason I got the flash to being with, was to help me taking pictures of my kids in-door. In order to avoid blurry pictures. as they moving a LOT, I mostly set my shutter speed to be around 250-500 in day light.

Zoba132,

Along with learning the technique of using flash to get sharp pictures of your moving kids, maybe try the following too:

Your X-T20 has an electronic viewfinder. So it's conducive for shooting video. Or you can use the back LCD screen. Try shooting 4K video of your kids. Extract stills that meet your goal from the video. Now you will have video of your kids plus select stills from the video.

4K video is 3840 x 2160 resolution. You can crop stills up to 10x8 inch for prints. With print set for 270 ppi, you can crop 2700 x 2160 and print 10x8 prints with no loss of resolution. For 7x5 prints at 300ppi, you can crop 2100x1500 for 7x5 inch prints with no loss of resolution.

I shoot video with my FZ1000 and extract stills from the video. The pictures are excellent. For instance, in Hokkaido, Japan my wife was catching cuttlefish from a tank in a fish market. I shot video of her doing that and extracted a lot of really nice stills. Plus I had the video of her doing it.

Sky

 

[Zoba132]

Thank you for the detailed answer. So the reason ISO effect recycle time, is that if that flash need to work "harder" (which means, strong flash light) to output a picture, the recycle time of the flash would be slower. If the amount of flash is rather small, the recycle speed would be better.

By going down with ISO all the way down, I force the flash to work harder.

Makes sense, thanks you

Right now, I mostly use the "Up to 800 ISO" mode on bright days, and "Up to 1600 ISO" mode when it's darker (mostly because changing ISO is a bit of hassle on the X-T20 as there is no dedicated dial for that). I would sometimes go "Up to 3200 ISO", but this gets grainy for my taste, and I assume you don't need to go that low with Flash. So I will stick with "Up to 800 ISO", see which ISO the camera pick, I wonder if it's smart enough to tell it's a dark scene, BUT - there's a flash, and set it somewhere near 800 rather then 200.

Thanks again!

 

[Zoba132]

Zoba132,

Along with learning the technique of using flash to get sharp pictures of your moving kids, maybe try the following too:

Your X-T20 has an electronic viewfinder. So it's conducive for shooting video. Or you can use the back LCD screen. Try shooting 4K video of your kids. Extract stills that meet your goal from the video. Now you will have video of your kids plus select stills from the video.

4K video is 3840 x 2160 resolution. You can crop stills up to 10x8 inch for prints. With print set for 270 ppi, you can crop 2700 x 2160 and print 10x8 prints with no loss of resolution. For 7x5 prints at 300ppi, you can crop 2100x1500 for 7x5 inch prints with no loss of resolution.

I shoot video with my FZ1000 and extract stills from the video. The pictures are excellent. For instance, in Hokkaido, Japan my wife was catching cuttlefish from a tank in a fish market. I shot video of her doing that and extracted a lot of really nice stills. Plus I had the video of her doing it.

Sky

Interesting enough, I always prefer to use my PHONE when taking videos. I find the videos taken with the Camera very shaky. It's like Image Stabilization is much worse on my Camera, then it's on my phone. Is it a Lens feature? Stabilization?

Also, how do you extract pictures out of videos at the end? editing program externally?

 

[skyglider]

Zoba132,

Along with learning the technique of using flash to get sharp pictures of your moving kids, maybe try the following too:

Your X-T20 has an electronic viewfinder. So it's conducive for shooting video. Or you can use the back LCD screen. Try shooting 4K video of your kids. Extract stills that meet your goal from the video. Now you will have video of your kids plus select stills from the video.

4K video is 3840 x 2160 resolution. You can crop stills up to 10x8 inch for prints. With print set for 270 ppi, you can crop 2700 x 2160 and print 10x8 prints with no loss of resolution. For 7x5 prints at 300ppi, you can crop 2100x1500 for 7x5 inch prints with no loss of resolution.

I shoot video with my FZ1000 and extract stills from the video. The pictures are excellent. For instance, in Hokkaido, Japan my wife was catching cuttlefish from a tank in a fish market. I shot video of her doing that and extracted a lot of really nice stills. Plus I had the video of her doing it.

Sky

Interesting enough, I always prefer to use my PHONE when taking videos. I find the videos taken with the Camera very shaky. It's like Image Stabilization is much worse on my Camera, then it's on my phone. Is it a Lens feature? Stabilization?

Also, how do you extract pictures out of videos at the end? editing program externally?

If your camera's image stabilization for video is not up to par, then taking 4K video using your phone will work.

To extract stills from 4K video, I use the VLC video player:

1. First create a folder to store your extracted still in.
   1. I made a folder in D:\VLC Snapshots.
2. Point VLC to store stills in that folder:
   1. TOOLS > PREFERENCES > VIDEO.
      1. In the Video Snapshots section, set the directory to D:\VLC Snapshots.
3. Play your 4K video. To stop on the frame you want:
   1. PAUSE.
   2. Tap the E key to advance frame-by-frame forward.
   3. To go backward, the only way is to move the circle on the progress bar backward a bit. Must hover on the progress bar to see the circle.
   4. After going backward a bit, tap the E key to go forward to the frame you want to save.
4. Now right click the video and go VIDEO > TAKE SNAPSHOT.
5. Done.
6. Now open "D:\VLC Snapshots" and the still you extracted will be there in 3840x2160 resolution.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how nice the extracted stills from 4K video (or even 1920x1080 video) can look.

Sky

 

[Zoba132]

Nice! Will try it, thank you!

 

[PhotoTeach2]

Picture your camera in a dark room pointed at some moving object, with the shutter open.
If you flash a light you will get a picture of that object while it was illuminated.
Outside the flash you won't record any light because there wasn't any.

If you do this outside, the difference is the darkened room. It's not dark. So you record everything that is going on... plus the flash of light.

So I'm still confused by that. Because now it makes sense why shutter speed doesn't matter on DARK room, because you only get a single picture - the moment the flash fire. So nothing gets blurred. But on most condition, you going to have some ambient light AND flash, so you going to have the same issue with blurry movement?

Ambient light is definitely a problem in sunlight, but seldom indoors.

A typical (ambient) indoor setting is about 1/30 @ f/2.8 @ ISO-400+ .... so a 1/180s @ ISO-100 would be "black" (at any f/stop) ... and the flash would be the "only" light.

Sunlight fill-flash is more problematic (and why i use a camera w/ "leaf" shutter).

Camera to Manual, ISO too. Take a picture but underexpose. Play with some settings like aperture to capture more or less light, and S to capture more light+motion.
Underexpose, so your S is too fast or the A is too high - or both.

This is your baseline picture. Any motion that is there on a slow shutterspeed will be recorded.

Keep the settings but now add flash to capture enough light. You will get a properly exposed picture.
But all the motion you had in your baseline image is still there. All the background-light that was dimly iluminated in your baseline image - it's still there.

Exactly. All the motion, is still there, even with the flash.

 

[LordKOTL]

...

So I'm still confused by that. Because now it makes sense why shutter speed doesn't matter on DARK room, because you only get a single picture - the moment the flash fire. So nothing gets blurred. But on most condition, you going to have some ambient light AND flash, so you going to have the same issue with blurry movement?

...

Exactly. All the motion, is still there, even with the flash.

I think this link might help you:

Tangents blog: Handheld at slow shutter speeds

The key takeaway I learned from that was that if you keep your subject sharp (and it usually is because the flash pulse will stop the motion), there are ways to mitigate a blurry background:

• If you're shooting with a wide aperture and are blurring the background anyway, motion blur on the background is lost in the background blur.
• Using a wide-angle lens to minimize any effects of camera shake
• Shoot against a background that won't show much camera shake blur.

Also, as a general rule you want your subjects to pop with respect to the background. Even a slight increase in lightness, contrast, or sharpness can make them stand out. If your subject is tack sharp and your background has slight camera shake, no one might notice and it might look better vs. everything tack sharp.

I hope this helped a bit. Good luck and happy shooting.

 

[Zoba132]

Thank you, it makes sense! Thank you!