Unsharp shots of moon with A7RV - what am I doing wrong?

[ErikBrouwer]

Hi all,

Like many, every time when I see a nice clear moon outside I can not resist taking the camera out, putting it on a tripod and get some shots.

With my previous camera, A7R4a, I got some nice results using the 100-400GM and 1.4TC.

Fast forward to today, where I purchased an A7RV and tried to do the same. But I simply can not get the camera to focus properly on the moon, the focus is always just a bit off. Of the 200 shots I took last night, only 2 or 3 are actually sharp and the rest is a blurry mess.

I used SS between 1/400 and 1/1600, to eliminate any blurriness. I tried AF-A and AF-S. I used different focus areas, big and small. Using single shot with 10sec timer, and three shots with 10sec timer. Nothing works. I am at a loss here, what can I do? Of all the 4- and 16- PixelShift shots I took, NONE are sharp.

My normal procedures for the A7R4 just don't seem to work anymore. And sadly I must admit that fits a trend, as I have missed quite a few shots with the A7RV that I think I would have had no problem with using the A7R4.

In short: how do this autofocus AI and I become friends? What am I missing?

Thanks for your help,

Erik

 

[Nielk Mike]

Hi all,

Like many, every time when I see a nice clear moon outside I can not resist taking the camera out, putting it on a tripod and get some shots.

With my previous camera, A7R4a, I got some nice results using the 100-400GM and 1.4TC.

Fast forward to today, where I purchased an A7RV and tried to do the same. But I simply can not get the camera to focus properly on the moon, the focus is always just a bit off. Of the 200 shots I took last night, only 2 or 3 are actually sharp and the rest is a blurry mess.

I used SS between 1/400 and 1/1600, to eliminate any blurriness. I tried AF-A and AF-S. I used different focus areas, big and small. Using single shot with 10sec timer, and three shots with 10sec timer. Nothing works. I am at a loss here, what can I do? Of all the 4- and 16- PixelShift shots I took, NONE are sharp.

My normal procedures for the A7R4 just don't seem to work anymore. And sadly I must admit that fits a trend, as I have missed quite a few shots with the A7RV that I think I would have had no problem with using the A7R4.

In short: how do this autofocus AI and I become friends? What am I missing?

Thanks for your help,

Erik

1. There is all kind of stuff between you and the moon that can cause blur.

2. Use a tripod.

3. Use MF.

4. Don't watch the image @100%. Scale down to normal viewing size.

5. Share sample images

 

[ErikBrouwer]

Thanks for your response!

Although my message may give you that impression, I am not a novice nor an idiot. ;-)

1. There is all kind of stuff between you and the moon that can cause blur.

I understand that, I have been doing this for a few years. ;-)

2. Use a tripod.

I do, as stated.

3. Use MF.

Frankly, a useless suggestion with this setup. The MF control is way too sensitive, for me at least, at these distances to make any proper focus selection.

4. Don't watch the image @100%. Scale down to normal viewing size.

I want full sharpness at full size, and the facts that 2 of the 200 pictures were sharp and that I have hundreds of sharp A7R4 pictures on my HD with this very same lens, indicate that it is possible.

5. Share sample images

Here you go. I am curious to know what you think.
In the mean time, I am still trying to get my head around the fact that when a 4000EUR camera and a 2000EUR lens confirm focus on an almost static subject shot from tripod, I still may get unsharp pictures...

Here a picture of the sharpness I have come to expect from this lens on the A7R4. Jupiter, its moons and our moon shot on the same night, merged in one shot. Notice the sharpness and detail in the craters of the moon at the edge of its visible surface, and the fact that I am even able to see Jupiters rings and moons!

And this is the best that the A7R5 is giving me ATM. Mediocre at best, especially when compared to the first picture.

And this is unfortunately what most results look like.

 

[Swiebertje]

Something must be really off with that particular (a7rv) copy. I have gotten much better moon pictures than these using subpar equipment (ancient dslr's and some of the very first mirrorless coupled with mirrorlenses).

 

[Nielk Mike]

Something must be really off with that particular (a7rv) copy. I have gotten much better moon pictures than these using subpar equipment (ancient dslr's and some of the very first mirrorless coupled with mirrorlenses).

Trying to use AF may or may not work. There isn't much contrast to work with. So MF is what I would use. There is also always a good chance of vibration. And not sure why f16 or f14. Anyhow, I don't think it is the camera.

 

[ahaslett]

I have the 100-400 GM and A7Riv but no teleconverter. Did you have IS on when on a tripod? I always shoot the moon handheld, but I use my OM1.

Shooting the full moon means you have little shadow detail except on the edges.

Lens test shot (one if my standard tests for teles)

I would have expected something a little more like the above in all your shots. 200 is base ISO for the OM1 and I shot with spot metering and the lens plus TC stopped down a tiny bit.

MF on the 100-400 is useless, the action is just wrong. I use MF a lot and the GM is my worst lens.

Does the A7Rv have an electronic in body focus limiter (like the OM1)?

Otherwise maybe there is an AF algorithm problem with the A7Rv.

Sorry not to be more help.

Andrew

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
Please feel free to edit any images that I post

 

[ErikBrouwer]

Something must be really off with that particular (a7rv) copy. I have gotten much better moon pictures than these using subpar equipment (ancient dslr's and some of the very first mirrorless coupled with mirrorlenses).

Trying to use AF may or may not work. There isn't much contrast to work with. So MF is what I would use. There is also always a good chance of vibration. And not sure why f16 or f14. Anyhow,

AF may-or-may-not work? Seriously!? On a 4000EUR camera in a situation where its predecessor did remarkably well with the very same lens?

I don't think it is the camera.

That was clear from your first reply tbh, as much as I appreciate you investing the time to reply here, still you offer no meaningful suggestion in helping me discover what I do wrong.

Like the other poster says, MF is totally useless on the 100-400 GM on these distances.

The thing that is bugging me the most here, to be honest is not actually that AF is having difficulties. I can work with equipment limitations. It is that it confirms with green boxes that is has reached peak focus, where the results clearly show it hasn't. It makes me wonder how intelligent is that camera, really?

 

[ErikBrouwer]

I have the 100-400 GM and A7Riv but no teleconverter. Did you have IS on when on a tripod? I always shoot the moon handheld, but I use my OM1.

I tried with OSS on lens switched on and off, with no meaningful difference. Would you suggest switching in-body IS off as well?

Next night with a clear moon, I am also going to disable the AI Autofocus subject detection altogether, see if that does anything.

 

[Nielk Mike]

Something must be really off with that particular (a7rv) copy. I have gotten much better moon pictures than these using subpar equipment (ancient dslr's and some of the very first mirrorless coupled with mirrorlenses).

Trying to use AF may or may not work. There isn't much contrast to work with. So MF is what I would use. There is also always a good chance of vibration. And not sure why f16 or f14. Anyhow,

AF may-or-may-not work? Seriously!? On a 4000EUR camera in a situation where its predecessor did remarkably well with the very same lens?

Yes, seriously.

I don't think it is the camera.

That was clear from your first reply tbh, as much as I appreciate you investing the time to reply here, still you offer no meaningful suggestion in helping me discover what I do wrong.

If it takes sharp images on earth, it will in space - if there is enough contrast to work with.

 

[ErikBrouwer]

If it takes sharp images on earth, it will in space - if there is enough contrast to work with.

That's my problem: it doesn't. And I can actually think of very few scenarios were there is more contrast than between the sharp edge of a full moon, and deep black space behind it.

My trick with the A7R4 with a full moon, where there is of course very little detail on the surface to focus on, was to use a focus box (L or M) and to put it over the edge of the moon while focussing. Always worked.

 

[Swiebertje]

I tried with OSS on lens switched on and off, with no meaningful difference. Would you suggest switching in-body IS off as well?

Next night with a clear moon, I am also going to disable the AI Autofocus subject detection altogether, see if that does anything.

Honestly I cant imagine for someone with your experience to go so wrong with such high grade equipment and as you have made clear allready the lens did totally fine in combination with the a7riv and you yourself also did fine when using that combo. The a7rv is somewhat different than its predecessor but not that much, you should be doing great with that camera. As suggested by @ahaslett I also suspect something to be off with your a7rv, your captures should have been tacksharp in combination with that lens. The only way to truly find out for yourself is to compare it with another copy, preferably in the store where you bought the camera.

p.s.

Some months ago I pre-ordered the a6700, picked it up from Kamera-express once it hit their store, and I had to return it right away as it malfunctioned after a single day's use. The store swapped it for another copy after I reproduced the defect in the store but would have also swapped it if it happened after a few weeks.

 

[Lichtspiel]

Are you using magnification when you auto-focus? I always do, it auto-focuses perfectly, and even with a cheap lens (Tamron 70-300) the results are alright, considering everything.

 

[Nielk Mike]

I tried with OSS on lens switched on and off, with no meaningful difference. Would you suggest switching in-body IS off as well?

Next night with a clear moon, I am also going to disable the AI Autofocus subject detection altogether, see if that does anything.

Honestly I cant imagine for someone with your experience to go so wrong with such high grade equipment and as you have made clear allready the lens did totally fine in combination with the a7riv and you yourself also did fine when using that combo. The a7rv is somewhat different than its predecessor but not that much, you should be doing great with that camera. As suggested by @ahaslett I also suspect something to be off with your a7rv, your captures should have been tacksharp in combination with that lens. The only way to truly find out for yourself is to compare it with another copy, preferably in the store where you bought the camera.

p.s.

Some months ago I pre-ordered the a6700, picked it up from Kamera-express once it hit their store, and I had to return it right away as it malfunctioned after a single day's use. The store swapped it for another copy after I reproduced the defect in the store but would have also swapped it if it happened after a few weeks.

If his camera with that lens is able to capture only on shot on earth that ins in focus at infinity, then it is not the camera. Using AF, the camera may focus beyond infinity (something Fuji does often - but Fuji has a focus distance limiter to prevent that).

The moon is at infinity. So if focus is set to infinity using an earthly object, the moon should be in focus, right? Using the dsitance scale in the EVF, one could even be able to tell when the lens is set to infinty focus.

 

[wpstl]

Hi all,

Like many, every time when I see a nice clear moon outside I can not resist taking the camera out, putting it on a tripod and get some shots.

With my previous camera, A7R4a, I got some nice results using the 100-400GM and 1.4TC.

Fast forward to today, where I purchased an A7RV and tried to do the same. But I simply can not get the camera to focus properly on the moon, the focus is always just a bit off. Of the 200 shots I took last night, only 2 or 3 are actually sharp and the rest is a blurry mess.

I used SS between 1/400 and 1/1600, to eliminate any blurriness. I tried AF-A and AF-S. I used different focus areas, big and small. Using single shot with 10sec timer, and three shots with 10sec timer. Nothing works. I am at a loss here, what can I do? Of all the 4- and 16- PixelShift shots I took, NONE are sharp.

My normal procedures for the A7R4 just don't seem to work anymore. And sadly I must admit that fits a trend, as I have missed quite a few shots with the A7RV that I think I would have had no problem with using the A7R4.

In short: how do this autofocus AI and I become friends? What am I missing?

Thanks for your help,

Erik

Turn IBIS off while on the tripod to see if that helps; it's not needed for the settings necessary to capture a full moon.

Also, f/14 isn't needed for an object at that distance. Is diffraction playing a small role????

I would take them handheld at 5.6 or 8. The moon is bright enough to handle it.

 

[ahaslett]

Are you using magnification when you auto-focus? I always do, it auto-focuses perfectly, and even with a cheap lens (Tamron 70-300) the results are alright, considering everything.

I always use magnification. You always get critical focus with lenses like the CV 50/2 APO with linear action and a big throw. I tried many times to get critical focus with the GM and it was never anywhere close to AF. I focus all my lenses in MF for landscape and the GM is the worst.

Andrew

 

[ErikBrouwer]

If his camera with that lens is able to capture only on shot on earth that ins in focus at infinity, then it is not the camera. Using AF, the camera may focus beyond infinity (something Fuji does often - but Fuji has a focus distance limiter to prevent that).

The moon is at infinity. So if focus is set to infinity using an earthly object, the moon should be in focus, right? Using the dsitance scale in the EVF, one could even be able to tell when the lens is set to infinty focus.

If I move the focus to infinity, the moon becomes blurry. The moon is actually in focus a tiny bit before it hits infinity. This was also the case on the A7R4 by the way. The focus distance limiter is an interesting option, I will look into that.

I haven't been shooting other far away subjects with this camera/lens combo by the way, I have only done some birding on birds within 20-30m, with about 20-30% keeper shots, but with the low light and rainy days I find it hard to judge the camera just on those shots..

 

[ErikBrouwer]

Turn IBIS off while on the tripod to see if that helps; it's not needed for the settings necessary to capture a full moon.

Also, f/14 isn't needed for an object at that distance. Is diffraction playing a small role????

I would take them handheld at 5.6 or 8. The moon is bright enough to handle it.

My experience is that with the TC and 100-400, going above F11 significantly improves the sharpness and reduces fringing, of which especially the TC suffers quite a lot.

 

[Nielk Mike]

If his camera with that lens is able to capture only on shot on earth that ins in focus at infinity, then it is not the camera. Using AF, the camera may focus beyond infinity (something Fuji does often - but Fuji has a focus distance limiter to prevent that).

The moon is at infinity. So if focus is set to infinity using an earthly object, the moon should be in focus, right? Using the dsitance scale in the EVF, one could even be able to tell when the lens is set to infinty focus.

If I move the focus to infinity, the moon becomes blurry. The moon is actually in focus a tiny bit before it hits infinity. This was also the case on the A7R4 by the way. The focus distance limiter is an interesting option, I will look into that.

Sony doens't have that limiter. And Fuji needed it badly.

I haven't been shooting other far away subjects with this camera/lens combo by the way, I have only done some birding on birds within 20-30m, with about 20-30% keeper shots, but with the low light and rainy days I find it hard to judge the camera just on those shots..

 

[JohnnyJag]

F16 will give you diffraction. F8.0 should be good

Shutter speed is too slow (the Moon is a moving object).

 

[ErikBrouwer]

F16 will give you diffraction. F8.0 should be good

Shutter speed is too slow (the Moon is a moving object).

I have shot tack sharp images at 1/50th at this focal length with the A7R4. (see the image with Jupiter, for example)

With some of the responses here in mind, and the results of another session where I had much less keepers than I was used to with the A7R4, I have reported to my camera dealership to talk about an exchange. Will report back on how that works out.