Unfair rules in Photo Contests - NO HDR!?

[Bart Hickman]

By using hdr/layers/combining exposures you are unable to create your
work of art in a single creative process to put it most simply. Yes
all photographs, including film, need to have contrast/density
balanced after being recorded - but normal minor adjustments.

So all I need is a camera that can interactively show me my HDR preview to meet your requirement of doing it in a single creative process. Someday technology will produce cameras with the needed dynamic range to do this. Will it be okay then?

Anyway, your definition of "single creative process" seems arbitrary to me. I visualize the final result when I take the picture(s). I'm only combining them to help others see my vision. How's that different from any other art? Did Ansel Adams perform a single creative process when he did the extensive post-processing that he did?

I say HDR shots should succeed or fail on the merit of the final result. If it looks too cartoony or painterly, then it'll fail.

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

 

[Rob Kircher]

... That's what I want to say every time I hear someone say
something is unfair. Since when is life fair.

If you don't like the rules register a complaint but not on the basis
of fairness you'll just sound like a little kid.

If the organizers don't see it your way find another competition.

If you can't find another one then create your own.

BUT don't go around whining that the rule aren't fair. They are the
rules and if you don't like it find a legitimate reason to have them
changed or don't participate.

You are 100% right. Whining about it not being fair is definitely
not the way to go. I chose the wrong words I guess. Life isn't
fair. I'm just trying to see why the rules are the way they are.
All I see is that people frown upon HDR for reasons I don't
understand. Maybe I am just too open to the concept.

It's pretty clear to me. The use of filterers is about getting the final image right in the camera. The use of HDR is about getting the image right on a computer. Yes I understand that you have to bracket you exposures well to create a good HDR but you are still creating the final image on a computer.

--



Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.rrkphotos.com
http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

 

[coreyh]

It's pretty clear to me. The use of filterers is about getting the
final image right in the camera. The use of HDR is about getting the
image right on a computer. Yes I understand that you have to
bracket you exposures well to create a good HDR but you are still
creating the final image on a computer.

And when cameras in the forseeable future can do HDR, is that okay? It is coming, that I can guarantee 100%. We don't need anymore megapixels, we need lower noise and higher dynamic range and that is what we will get.

--
Canon 10D
Canon EF 50mm F1.8 MKII
Sigma 10-20mm EX DC

 

[E300]

So many Photo Contests I am interested in entering do not allow
HDR/Multiple exposure images!

So? submit an image that meets the particular contest guidelines.

What is up with that? If your going to allow professional
photographers to take photos with Grad ND filters, then your really
making the contest uneven. I can't afford $500 dollars in Filters
and holders right now and the only way I can accomplish the same
thing is with HDR or multiple eposures.

Did the rules say you HAD to use a $500 filter? If you cannot get the results from the equipment you have then go out and practice.

No, the contest is NOT uneven - the same rules apply fto all participants.

To me this is a very ignorant attitude to have.

Why? The rules are the rules and just because you don't agree with then they are unfair?

Photo manipulation on the other hand, to the extent of adding
elements or removing elements from the picture... eg adding an eagle
to a sunset. I agree that should not be allowed.

Even things up for us amateurs and let us use the tools on PP that
are equal to using the tools in the field.

PP is NOT the same as getting it right in-camera. You might end up with a similar result, but it is not the same.

This is more for conversation than anything. What does everyone else
think?

From your comments, dare I say it, troll. Well, yes I do dare and yes, Troll.

Ok, your Profile says "Proffesional Pilot" (note spelling as is from your profile) - I think it is unfair that just because I cannot even fly a piper, that I should be allowed to jump into a 747 and fly it. Just because I know where the autopilot button is does not make me a pilot, much the same as Just because I know how to manipulate images does not make me a photographer.

In the case of Flying, the CAA (or equivalent) make the rules everyone has to follow, just as the contest organisers make the rules that everyone has to follow.

Get over it, and learn how to take a photo within the rules or don't enter. Your whinging like a baby will not get them to bend the rules just because you don't know how to acheive what you want without the crutch of photochop.

 

[Rob Kircher]

It's pretty clear to me. The use of filterers is about getting the
final image right in the camera. The use of HDR is about getting the
image right on a computer. Yes I understand that you have to
bracket you exposures well to create a good HDR but you are still
creating the final image on a computer.

And when cameras in the forseeable future can do HDR, is that okay?
It is coming, that I can guarantee 100%. We don't need anymore
megapixels, we need lower noise and higher dynamic range and that is
what we will get.

Yes only because we're talking about one skill instead of two.

In other words any photoshop other than the most basic color/contrast correction, cropping, and sharpening take an added skill set that many photographers don't have or want to have.

The skill that is being contested is you abilities with you camera not your abilities w/ your computer.

--



Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.rrkphotos.com
http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

 

[jahazard]

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't believe they are the "same" thing. An ND filter controls the amount of light the camera records. Some areas of the sensor receive more light, some receive less, in hopes of getting something the photographer feels is "balanced" ( I am open to correction, but I believe that is the basic idea, and that's what my neutral grad does).

Composting several images is a little bit different. The light has already been recorded. You are not manipulating what is coming in to the camera, you are manipulating what was recorded.

When HDR images are processed, I think that the highlights, shadows and all are being manipulated across the entire image - This is different than what a grad filter does to an image being captured. Both are image manipulation, dealing with shadows and high lights, but they go about it quite differently.

Also, when viewing HDR images on screen, they have to be "tone mapped", because monitors don't have the ability to display the incredible range of HDR. Ever try looking at an image in photomatix before its been tone mapped? Try printing one of your HDR images that has not been tone mapped. So, you not only merging the different exposures, after they are merged, you have another step to go through with the tone mapping.

I have nothing against HDR, really - I photoshop as much - probably more than the next person. But post processing and filtering your image before capture are different, and they require different skill sets. ND filters are an accepted tool in traditional photography, and you'll always run in to a wall when you challenge or question tradition. Is it manipulation? Sure, just of a different sort.

Image manipulation does not bother me too much, as long as the artist is up front about what's going on behind closed doors (if asked). I think HDR will eventually become "accepted" I think, but all this stuff is still so new, it will take a while for convention to soak it in.

My 50 cents anyhow...

Cheers!

Exactly my point as well. Everyone see's HDR as some manipulation of
photos. Imo, it is just a different way to get more dynamic range...
exactly the same as the use of grad filters.

 

[coreyh]

So many Photo Contests I am interested in entering do not allow
HDR/Multiple exposure images!

So? submit an image that meets the particular contest guidelines.

What is up with that? If your going to allow professional
photographers to take photos with Grad ND filters, then your really
making the contest uneven. I can't afford $500 dollars in Filters
and holders right now and the only way I can accomplish the same
thing is with HDR or multiple eposures.

Did the rules say you HAD to use a $500 filter? If you cannot get the
results from the equipment you have then go out and practice.

No, the contest is NOT uneven - the same rules apply fto all
participants.

To me this is a very ignorant attitude to have.

Why? The rules are the rules and just because you don't agree with
then they are unfair?

Photo manipulation on the other hand, to the extent of adding
elements or removing elements from the picture... eg adding an eagle
to a sunset. I agree that should not be allowed.

Even things up for us amateurs and let us use the tools on PP that
are equal to using the tools in the field.

PP is NOT the same as getting it right in-camera. You might end up
with a similar result, but it is not the same.

Why is that? If you shoot raw, then you HAVE to post process. I guess everyone who shoots raw doesn't get it done "RIGHT" in-camera.

This is more for conversation than anything. What does everyone else
think?

From your comments, dare I say it, troll. Well, yes I do dare and
yes, Troll.

I'm not a troll, thanks. I have been on the forums for many years with no trolling.

Ok, your Profile says "Proffesional Pilot" (note spelling as is from
your profile) - I think it is unfair that just because I cannot even
fly a piper, that I should be allowed to jump into a 747 and fly it.
Just because I know where the autopilot button is does not make me a
pilot, much the same as Just because I know how to manipulate images
does not make me a photographer.

Your saying that because I use HDR as a tool, I'm not a photographer? I need clarification, because I don't understand that comment.

In the case of Flying, the CAA (or equivalent) make the rules
everyone has to follow, just as the contest organisers make the rules
that everyone has to follow.

I am not entering that contest.

Get over it, and learn how to take a photo within the rules or don't
enter. Your whinging like a baby will not get them to bend the rules
just because you don't know how to acheive what you want without the
crutch of photochop.

Is autofocus a crutch? Spot metering? Face detection? Filters? Tripod?

I use all available tools to me. Does that make me a poor photographer?

--
Canon 10D
Canon EF 50mm F1.8 MKII
Sigma 10-20mm EX DC

 

[coreyh]

It's pretty clear to me. The use of filterers is about getting the
final image right in the camera. The use of HDR is about getting the
image right on a computer. Yes I understand that you have to
bracket you exposures well to create a good HDR but you are still
creating the final image on a computer.

And when cameras in the forseeable future can do HDR, is that okay?
It is coming, that I can guarantee 100%. We don't need anymore
megapixels, we need lower noise and higher dynamic range and that is
what we will get.

Yes only because we're talking about one skill instead of two.

In other words any photoshop other than the most basic color/contrast
correction, cropping, and sharpening take an added skill set that
many photographers don't have or want to have.

The skill that is being contested is you abilities with you camera
not your abilities w/ your computer.

FALSE! 100%. Your saying, that because I take pictures and combine them in Photomatix, that I'm creating a fake image? Your saying that my abilities for shooting pictures is lesser than someone who doesn't shoot hdr? WOW!

It's okay for the camera to do it, but it isn't okay for me to do it? Huh?

--



Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.rrkphotos.com
http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

--
Canon 10D
Canon EF 50mm F1.8 MKII
Sigma 10-20mm EX DC

 

[coreyh]

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't believe they are the
"same" thing. An ND filter controls the amount of light the camera
records. Some areas of the sensor receive more light, some receive
less, in hopes of getting something the photographer feels is
"balanced" ( I am open to correction, but I believe that is the basic
idea, and that's what my neutral grad does).

Composting several images is a little bit different. The light has
already been recorded. You are not manipulating what is coming in to
the camera, you are manipulating what was recorded.

When HDR images are processed, I think that the highlights, shadows
and all are being manipulated across the entire image - This is
different than what a grad filter does to an image being captured.
Both are image manipulation, dealing with shadows and high lights,
but they go about it quite differently.

Also, when viewing HDR images on screen, they have to be "tone
mapped", because monitors don't have the ability to display the
incredible range of HDR. Ever try looking at an image in photomatix
before its been tone mapped? Try printing one of your HDR images
that has not been tone mapped. So, you not only merging the
different exposures, after they are merged, you have another step to
go through with the tone mapping.

I have nothing against HDR, really - I photoshop as much - probably
more than the next person. But post processing and filtering your
image before capture are different, and they require different skill
sets. ND filters are an accepted tool in traditional photography,
and you'll always run in to a wall when you challenge or question
tradition. Is it manipulation? Sure, just of a different sort.

Image manipulation does not bother me too much, as long as the artist
is up front about what's going on behind closed doors (if asked). I
think HDR will eventually become "accepted" I think, but all this
stuff is still so new, it will take a while for convention to soak it
in.

My 50 cents anyhow...

Cheers!

Great post! Very well said, although I will stick with my guns. What do you think about taking 2 pictures and masking them to create one? That is more along the lines of what a ND filter does I guess.

Exactly my point as well. Everyone see's HDR as some manipulation of
photos. Imo, it is just a different way to get more dynamic range...
exactly the same as the use of grad filters.

--
Canon 10D
Canon EF 50mm F1.8 MKII
Sigma 10-20mm EX DC

 

[Rob Kircher]

It's pretty clear to me. The use of filterers is about getting the
final image right in the camera. The use of HDR is about getting the
image right on a computer. Yes I understand that you have to
bracket you exposures well to create a good HDR but you are still
creating the final image on a computer.

And when cameras in the forseeable future can do HDR, is that okay?
It is coming, that I can guarantee 100%. We don't need anymore
megapixels, we need lower noise and higher dynamic range and that is
what we will get.

Yes only because we're talking about one skill instead of two.

In other words any photoshop other than the most basic color/contrast
correction, cropping, and sharpening take an added skill set that
many photographers don't have or want to have.

The skill that is being contested is you abilities with you camera
not your abilities w/ your computer.

FALSE! 100%. Your saying, that because I take pictures and combine
them in Photomatix, that I'm creating a fake image? Your saying that
my abilities for shooting pictures is lesser than someone who doesn't
shoot hdr? WOW!

Thats not at all what I said. I said you used two skill sets to create your image where as what is being contested is one skill set.

It's okay for the camera to do it, but it isn't okay for me to do it?
Huh?

No, whats being contested is your ability to do it with the camera not the camera and computers.

--



Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.rrkphotos.com
http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

 

[coreyh]

It's okay for the camera to do it, but it isn't okay for me to do it?
Huh?

No, whats being contested is your ability to do it with the camera
not the camera and computers.

Have you ever shot HDR? For myself, I know I put as much care and attention towards the final result as one would for creating an image with filters. It's just 2 ways of acheiving the same results. One is frowned upon because it isn't traditional.

 

[E300]

Why is that? If you shoot raw, then you HAVE to post process. I
guess everyone who shoots raw doesn't get it done "RIGHT" in-camera.

The Question of RAW was never raised until now. If you shot film, would you present an un-processed negative for your PHOTO contest - I thought not.

This is more for conversation than anything. What does everyone else
think?

From your comments, dare I say it, troll. Well, yes I do dare and
yes, Troll.

I'm not a troll, thanks. I have been on the forums for many years
with no trolling.

Regardless of your posting history, the very questions asked is trollish.

Your saying that because I use HDR as a tool, I'm not a photographer?
I need clarification, because I don't understand that comment.

Nope not at all - If you use HDR in the context of your question you are a cheat - nothing more.

In the case of Flying, the CAA (or equivalent) make the rules
everyone has to follow, just as the contest organisers make the rules
that everyone has to follow.

I am not entering that contest.

So, your post asking about being allowed to use HDR when the rules say no in a contest you are not going to enter anyway is irrelevent or trollish.

Get over it, and learn how to take a photo within the rules or don't
enter. Your whinging like a baby will not get them to bend the rules
just because you don't know how to acheive what you want without the
crutch of photochop.

Is autofocus a crutch? Spot metering? Face detection? Filters?
Tripod?

I use all available tools to me. Does that make me a poor photographer?

I have no Idea - I have not seen your images - but that is irrelevent. It is the images that are presented for a contest to be judged that matters.

You also asked about HDR or using An ND filter.

HDR is image manipulation, using an ND is NOT. HDR IS Post-processing or changing the captured image, where using an ND is pre-processing. Pre-processing not manipulating the captured image, but manipulating the image to be captured. You could also say that using a flash, a reflector, a model, a stylist and a backdrop are also pre-processing - you might spend hours to set up a shot, but once it is captured you don't change it per-se.

 

[Rob Kircher]

It's okay for the camera to do it, but it isn't okay for me to do it?
Huh?

No, whats being contested is your ability to do it with the camera
not the camera and computers.

Have you ever shot HDR?

Of course I have and to be honest I get more satisfaction out of doing it the traditional way and I'm a computer geek.

For myself, I know I put as much care and
attention towards the final result as one would for creating an image
with filters. It's just 2 ways of acheiving the same results. One
is frowned upon because it isn't traditional.

Actually its not being frowned upon but it does goes back to what's being contested and YES the traditional methods are what is at contest here.

One day that very well may change and I know for certain that there are contest that promote the new age of digital creation and manipulation. I'll just assume you haven't found any in your area.

--



Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.rrkphotos.com
http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

 

[jahazard]

The concept is similar yes, but the process is quite different, again - you are dealing with actual capture of the light in one case, and then manipulating what was captured with the other. So, to me - its different.

Like, in one case, you control what the camera DOES. In the other, you affect what the camera DID. That's why its called post processing, and that's why I believe many people have an issue with it.

Using a camera to obtain an image, is different from: using a computer to affect what the camera captured, and is also different from using the computer in tandem with a camera to create something that only possible using both. The last one is the new wave in photography, and is going to be debated to death over and over...

I think that many equate it to "cheating" - doing this after capture somehow infers the lack of the knowledge and/or skill to capture the same thing in camera. And, in some cases, this may be the truth. But its not my place to assign this label to any person or their work. And in the end, to me all that matters is if the final image moves me or not.

In the case of this particular contest, I'd just articulate my opinion to them, and move on to another contest.

Great post! Very well said, although I will stick with my guns.
What do you think about taking 2 pictures and masking them to create
one? That is more along the lines of what a ND filter does I guess.

 

[coreyh]

Why is that? If you shoot raw, then you HAVE to post process. I
guess everyone who shoots raw doesn't get it done "RIGHT" in-camera.

The Question of RAW was never raised until now. If you shot film,
would you present an un-processed negative for your PHOTO contest - I
thought not.

Umm... no.

This is more for conversation than anything. What does everyone else
think?

From your comments, dare I say it, troll. Well, yes I do dare and
yes, Troll.

I'm not a troll, thanks. I have been on the forums for many years
with no trolling.

Regardless of your posting history, the very questions asked is
trollish.

Why is it trollish? What are you talking about me being a troll?

Your saying that because I use HDR as a tool, I'm not a photographer?
I need clarification, because I don't understand that comment.

Nope not at all - If you use HDR in the context of your question you
are a cheat - nothing more.

HDR is cheating? Only if I enter the contest, which I'm not. I'm just debating the ethics behind it, which is obviously above your head and hense why you keep calling me a troll.

In the case of Flying, the CAA (or equivalent) make the rules
everyone has to follow, just as the contest organisers make the rules
that everyone has to follow.

I am not entering that contest.

So, your post asking about being allowed to use HDR when the rules
say no in a contest you are not going to enter anyway is irrelevent
or trollish.

I guestion something so I'm a troll. Another valid point.

Get over it, and learn how to take a photo within the rules or don't
enter. Your whinging like a baby will not get them to bend the rules
just because you don't know how to acheive what you want without the
crutch of photochop.

Is autofocus a crutch? Spot metering? Face detection? Filters?
Tripod?

I use all available tools to me. Does that make me a poor photographer?

I have no Idea - I have not seen your images - but that is
irrelevent. It is the images that are presented for a contest to be
judged that matters.

You also asked about HDR or using An ND filter.

HDR is image manipulation, using an ND is NOT. HDR IS
Post-processing or changing the captured image, where using an ND is
pre-processing. Pre-processing not manipulating the captured image,
but manipulating the image to be captured. You could also say that
using a flash, a reflector, a model, a stylist and a backdrop are
also pre-processing - you might spend hours to set up a shot, but
once it is captured you don't change it per-se.

If HDR creates an identical image to that of ND grad filters, then why is it wrong? I'm just seeing the final vision in reverse to someone using filters, that is all.

--
Canon 10D
Canon EF 50mm F1.8 MKII
Sigma 10-20mm EX DC

 

[E300]

If HDR creates an identical image to that of ND grad filters, then
why is it wrong? I'm just seeing the final vision in reverse to
someone using filters, that is all.

since you are obviously incapable of thinking - and understanding what has been said I will spell it out for you right here.

There is nothing wrong with HDR v's using a GND, EXCEPT THE CONTEXT OF YOUR QUESTION.

Your Question was why is it not allowed - a lot of people have answered that question you are incapable of listening. The reasons are:

1 the rules say so.
2 Post processing is not the same as pre-processing, regardless of the results.
3 It is a photo competion not a photoshop competition.

Get over yourself and listen to the answers when you ask a question.

This just once again re-enforces my point - go back under your bridge.

I am out of here -

I guess the old adage holds true If you argue with an idiot long enough onlookers won't be able to tell the difference. Goodbye, before people mistake me.

 

[coreyh]

since you are obviously incapable of thinking - and understanding
what has been said I will spell it out for you right here.

Obviously, your incapable of having a conversation without slamming the other person or calling them a troll.

There is nothing wrong with HDR v's using a GND, EXCEPT THE CONTEXT
OF YOUR QUESTION.

Your Question was why is it not allowed - a lot of people have
answered that question you are incapable of listening. The reasons
are:

1 the rules say so.
2 Post processing is not the same as pre-processing, regardless of
the results.
3 It is a photo competion not a photoshop competition.

Get over yourself and listen to the answers when you ask a question.

This thread is about why it isn't aloud. You missed the point man. I know what the rules are and I understand the difference between post/pre processing and I know I'm not entering a photoshop competition.

This just once again re-enforces my point - go back under your bridge.

Did you just call me a troll again? LOL! Are you incapable of having a debate without getting upset?

I am out of here -
I guess the old adage holds true If you argue with an idiot long
enough onlookers won't be able to tell the difference. Goodbye,
before people mistake me.

I think your too late.

--
Canon 10D
Canon EF 50mm F1.8 MKII
Sigma 10-20mm EX DC

 

[Franka T.L.]

Competitions, of all thing are not mean to be open. Rules are there to govern a set way of how entries are made. Everything is sort of , relative .

I simply do not see why such rule can be unfair. Every one are subjected to the same rule and isn;t it then unfair to had such category as B&W, Portrait, and HDR of all thing as it limit the photographer in subject and choice of expression / technique.

The rule of no HDR is pretty much similar. It just reflect what the competition wants in that category of entries and sort to made the entries level on technical ground.

--

• Franka -

 

[Dave Largent]

any photoshop other than the most basic color/contrast
correction, cropping, and sharpening take an added skill set that
many photographers don't have or want to have.

The skill that is being contested is your abilities with your camera
not your abilities w/ your computer.

It's a "photo contest" so I agree with limitiing it to the most basic
corrections. It's not a graphic arts contest to show off your
special effects capabilities.

 

[jrahadi]

I agree
Thanks Rob for the nice insight