Tripods and macro..

[mwildt]

Hi,

I have a really old Cullmann tripod. It have served me well but it also have this anoying feature. With my 20D and 100mm macro I point the camera to the subject. Get the framing just right and then I lock the head. As soon as I let go the camera/lens droops a tiny bit changing the framing. Ahh, I figured it's the tripods fault, or more likely the tripod head.

At my office a friend have a Manfrotto 3001 with a 486 ball head. Very nice and he offered I could try it out. I really like the quality and it does seem a bit more sturdier than mine. So last night I tried it out.

Dooh, exact same issue as with my own setup. I frame the picture. Lock the ballhead and then see the framing drop just a bit. I then investigated this a bit further and it seems like there is flex in the tripod mount on the camera. Both tripod/heads uses mounting plates for quick release.

I know the 20D is metal body, and I know the 100mm Canon macro is a bit on the heavy side, but I wasn't expected to see flex. It aint much but it really bugs me. In the future I hope to get a 100-400mm so with a heavier setup this would just get worse (though it may get offset by that lens having the mount point and not the camera).

Am I expecting too much ? or is this just a place where you 'rough' set the framing and then use a different head to adjust with after the head is 'locked' ?

Ideally I would have bought a 055 Manfrotto with a ball head (w/quick release) but now I am waiting a bit.

Michael

 

[janaco]

Sounds familiar. I own the same tripod combination (055 pro, 486 Ball with RC2). I do not own the Canon 100mm but the Sigma 105mm, but thats not the difference.

What we see as "framing change" is a very small movement of the whole setup of about 0.5mm or so. This is quite normal. Think of the heavy weight of the macro and body, bowing beyond the balance point of the construct, the maybe soft ground, the rubber-feet of the tripod and the rubber on the RC2-Plate. You can reduce the "play" by but the legs in a bigger angle and try to screw the RC2-Plate more tight as you usually did.

I learned to predict the "play" and am now correcting the frame if its not perfectly placed. The 486 Ball is easy to correct btw.

janaco
--
Canon EOS 33/300D/30D

 

[Christopher]

Yes, with cheaper ball heads you will get this effect. I think you tend to notice it more with macro because you are working around 1:1 and very small movements in the lens show up more. Here is a post I made about my search for a good macro tripod/head setup:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=18767794

The bottom line: get a Manfrotto geared head and put it on a solid tripod of your choice.

Chris

 

[mwildt]

Hi,

Thanks for commenting. Yes it was the 486 RC2 ball head.

Agree the 'framing change' is due to the flex in the cameras tripod mount or the rubber on the mount plate as you point out.

I found that Really Right Stuff have a mounting plate without rubber and it also seems to catch the front and back of the camera body (front/back assuming you're looking at the lcd on the body). Maybe that is what is needed to further reduce the 'drop'.

I only worked with this setup for a small time so you may be correct it can be anticipated to some degree, though I'm still quite annoided with this 'feature'. On my old setup adjusting the tripod head is a drag though.

How do you like the 055 tripod ? Is it CarbonFiber or Alu ?

Michael

Sounds familiar. I own the same tripod combination (055 pro, 486
Ball with RC2). I do not own the Canon 100mm but the Sigma 105mm,
but thats not the difference.
What we see as "framing change" is a very small movement of the
whole setup of about 0.5mm or so. This is quite normal. Think of
the heavy weight of the macro and body, bowing beyond the balance
point of the construct, the maybe soft ground, the rubber-feet of
the tripod and the rubber on the RC2-Plate. You can reduce the
"play" by but the legs in a bigger angle and try to screw the
RC2-Plate more tight as you usually did.
I learned to predict the "play" and am now correcting the frame if
its not perfectly placed. The 486 Ball is easy to correct btw.

janaco
--
Canon EOS 33/300D/30D

 

[mwildt]

Hi,

I think you are correct with the geared head. That would allow for better adjustments. How well does that head move in the initial setup of the shot ?

The 486 ball head is rocksolid in this setup. The movement is in the mounting plate to camera body only, not the ball head. I think the head can be blamed, by mistake, in these cases.

Michael

Yes, with cheaper ball heads you will get this effect. I think you
tend to notice it more with macro because you are working around
1:1 and very small movements in the lens show up more. Here is a
post I made about my search for a good macro tripod/head setup:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=18767794

The bottom line: get a Manfrotto geared head and put it on a solid
tripod of your choice.

Chris

 

[S_Egbert]

I don't have a macro lens yet but I have this same problem with my 30D+grip.

There it visible flex in the base of the grip when trying to get the framing just right, whether close up or telephoto, and of course worse with heavier lenses.

I am thinking about getting an L-bracket from Kirk Ent. They have one that attaches to the strap mount and looks like it may help stiffen things up a bit. The base part is also a lot longer than the RC2 plate so may also be helpful.

I am using the 488RC2 head now so would have to replace the QR adapter with one for the Arca type plates.

Anyone have experience with the Kirk L-bracket? http://www.kirkphoto.com/lbracketsc.html

Steve
--
kumi Ori Ki Va Orech...

 

[janaco]

How do you like the 055 tripod ? Is it CarbonFiber or Alu ?

I really like the 055 ProB - but only the "Pro" because one can take out the center-column and put it back in horizontal orientation. So you can get nearer to the ground which is very important for "wildlife-macro" The 055 is Alu and you can find many offers together with the Monopod 681 B - but you have to buy the ballhead separately.

Read http://www.manfrotto.com/Jahia/op/preview/cache/offonce/pid/2277?livid=68%7C69&idx=71 for details.
--
Canon EOS 33/300D/30D

 

[S_Egbert]

The 486 ball head is rocksolid in this setup. The movement is in
the mounting plate to camera body only, not the ball head. I think
the head can be blamed, by mistake, in these cases.

Agreed. I can't detect any flex in the head itself (488), but in the body, grip, and plate mount points, yes.

Steve
--
kumi Ori Ki Va Orech...

 

[janaco]

A weak point might be the center-up-down-column too which has to be screwed very tight to eliminate movement. But if one thinks of using the screws the tripod gets more and more solid

And btw.: sorry, I own the 488, not the 486 Ball. The difference are ca. 20g of weight, 200g of additional possible Camera weight and the missing 360°-Scale on the 486.
--
Canon EOS 33/300D/30D

 

[mwildt]

Hi,

I can imagine with a grip there would be significantly more flex. I'm actually surprised there isn't two or more holes in the camera bottom so a matching dowel can help with the connection stability. Guess the 'old' threaded tripod mount is seen as too much of a legacy to improve on.

The L bracket looks promissing. I like the idea that it also ties into the strap mount. That ought to reduce the flex, especially on a camera with grip. Bummer that Really Right Stuff doesn't do this too. Both vendors provide very nice stuff though.

Michael

I don't have a macro lens yet but I have this same problem with my
30D+grip.
There it visible flex in the base of the grip when trying to get
the framing just right, whether close up or telephoto, and of
course worse with heavier lenses.
I am thinking about getting an L-bracket from Kirk Ent. They have
one that attaches to the strap mount and looks like it may help
stiffen things up a bit. The base part is also a lot longer than
the RC2 plate so may also be helpful.
I am using the 488RC2 head now so would have to replace the QR
adapter with one for the Arca type plates.
Anyone have experience with the Kirk L-bracket?
http://www.kirkphoto.com/lbracketsc.html

Steve
--
kumi Ori Ki Va Orech...

 

[Christopher]

the geared head is controlled by three knobs, each of which has a kind of collar. Turning the collars disengages each axis, allowing for rapid/rough positioning. Turning the knobs themselves gives the finer adjustment. It takes a little getting used to, but works really well for composition once you get the hang of it.

Chris

 

[janaco]

I can imagine with a grip there would be significantly more flex.
I'm actually surprised there isn't two or more holes in the camera
bottom so a matching dowel can help with the connection stability.
Guess the 'old' threaded tripod mount is seen as too much of a
legacy to improve on.

Thats why heavier lenses have tripod mounts ;-)



--
Canon EOS 33/300D/30D

 

[S_Egbert]

The L bracket looks promissing. I like the idea that it also ties
into the strap mount. That ought to reduce the flex, especially on
a camera with grip. Bummer that Really Right Stuff doesn't do this
too. Both vendors provide very nice stuff though.

I looked at RRS also for their lever type QR adapter which I like on the Bogen head I have. But their lever adapter has to be used with their QR plates so I have to go with the Kirk screw type adapter as they don't make a lever type. Maybe the screw type is better anyway, as most of the high end stuff uses it.

Steve

--
kumi Ori Ki Va Orech...

 

[Tony Brooks]

There is a tripod mount available for the 100mm macro, B & H have them for $143.95.

That would take the attachment away from the 'problem' camera mount, but you may still have to eliminate any rubber to avoid tiny amounts of flex.

There are also dedicated macro brackets with micro-adjusting slides in two planes (and Asian knock-offs on eBay). Might help.
--
Regards,
Tony Brooks



'The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched...but are felt in the heart.' - Helen Keller

 

[CanonMacro]

Ball heads are no good for macro, so don't even consider.

For controllability, you will require the ability to adjust each axis or movement independently. I've been shooting macro now for 10 years and have used various tripods and heads over this period. I now have a setup that I'm 99% happy with (I'll never be 100%), although it may look/sound a bit Heath-Robinson to some.

Shooting macro means that your camera could be pointing in any direction and at any angle to get the framing that you want for the shot, so throw away your spirit levels. One key adjustment for macro (IMHO) is to be able to rotate the camera/lens around the lens axis so a must-have is the Canon B(B) tripod mount. This, though, does not allow 360° rotation as the pentaprism housing and grip get in the way. I keep a Kenko 12mm extension tube permanently on the back of my 100mm macro lens and this provides enough distance between the tripod mount and camera to enable 360° rotation.

The next important adjustment is to be able to move the camera towards/away from the subject to fine-tune framing and focus. For this, I use a Manfrotto 454 micropositioning slide, although other suitable options exist, including the Novoflex Castel-Mini. As I keep a vertical grip permanently attached to my 20D, there is a gap to be filled between the tripod mount and the micropositioning slide that I now fill with a Mamiya cylindrical spacer originally intended to allow the use of a Polaroid back on a Mamiya MF camera on a tripod (previously I used a Manfrotto 234 Tilt Top kept permanently straight). In order to facilitate construction and breakdown of the assembly, I have a Manfrotto 200Pl QR plate on the bottom of the tripod mount/Mamiya spacer and a Manfrotto 323 QR adapter on the top of the micropositioning slide. Between the 323 and the micropositioning slide is a thin packer (I've used very thin plywood, but modelling plastic card would be just as suitable), as the bottom of the 323 is not flat.

As the above arrangement provides quite a range of movements, the actual tripod head need not be as complex. The tripod head that I use is an old Manfrotto 128 video head (a similar model, the 128LP is, I believe, still available). The micropositioning slide is firmly bolted to the top of the 128, which provides rotation about the tripod centre column axis and tilt. Both of these are very smooth operation and lock solidly.

The above may sound complex, but I've developed it over a number of yeas and, mounted onto a sturdy tripod (I use a shortened Manfrotto 055) provides a very flexible and adaptable photographic platform.

Jon

--
CanonMacro

 

[mwildt]

Hi

Thanks to you and Tony for the collar suggestion. I found it online but no pictures of how it mounts. Any chance you could post a shot of your setup ?

Thanks
Michael

Ball heads are no good for macro, so don't even consider.

For controllability, you will require the ability to adjust each
axis or movement independently. I've been shooting macro now for
10 years and have used various tripods and heads over this period.
I now have a setup that I'm 99% happy with (I'll never be 100%),
although it may look/sound a bit Heath-Robinson to some.

Shooting macro means that your camera could be pointing in any
direction and at any angle to get the framing that you want for the
shot, so throw away your spirit levels. One key adjustment for
macro (IMHO) is to be able to rotate the camera/lens around the
lens axis so a must-have is the Canon B(B) tripod mount. This,
though, does not allow 360° rotation as the pentaprism housing and
grip get in the way. I keep a Kenko 12mm extension tube
permanently on the back of my 100mm macro lens and this provides
enough distance between the tripod mount and camera to enable 360°
rotation.

The next important adjustment is to be able to move the camera
towards/away from the subject to fine-tune framing and focus. For
this, I use a Manfrotto 454 micropositioning slide, although other
suitable options exist, including the Novoflex Castel-Mini. As I
keep a vertical grip permanently attached to my 20D, there is a gap
to be filled between the tripod mount and the micropositioning
slide that I now fill with a Mamiya cylindrical spacer originally
intended to allow the use of a Polaroid back on a Mamiya MF camera
on a tripod (previously I used a Manfrotto 234 Tilt Top kept
permanently straight). In order to facilitate construction and
breakdown of the assembly, I have a Manfrotto 200Pl QR plate on the
bottom of the tripod mount/Mamiya spacer and a Manfrotto 323 QR
adapter on the top of the micropositioning slide. Between the 323
and the micropositioning slide is a thin packer (I've used very
thin plywood, but modelling plastic card would be just as
suitable), as the bottom of the 323 is not flat.

As the above arrangement provides quite a range of movements, the
actual tripod head need not be as complex. The tripod head that I
use is an old Manfrotto 128 video head (a similar model, the 128LP
is, I believe, still available). The micropositioning slide is
firmly bolted to the top of the 128, which provides rotation about
the tripod centre column axis and tilt. Both of these are very
smooth operation and lock solidly.

The above may sound complex, but I've developed it over a number of
yeas and, mounted onto a sturdy tripod (I use a shortened Manfrotto
055) provides a very flexible and adaptable photographic platform.

Jon

--
CanonMacro

 

[CanonMacro]

The Canon B(B) consists of two pieces. The first is a wide ring that clips around the lens with four small pawls around it. This ring stays permanently on the back of the lens. The tripod mount bayonets onto this ring and is then locked by tightening a thumb screw. The lens is then mounted onto the camera and the tripod mount attached to the tripod head. To rotate the camera/lens, the thumb screw is loosened and the lens rotated within the mount.

I'm not as savvy with the internet as with the camera, so I've not yet worked out how to upload pictures to dpreview. I'll send you it by e-mail.

Jon

--
CanonMacro

 

[mwildt]

The Canon B(B) consists of two pieces. The first is a wide ring
that clips around the lens with four small pawls around it. This
ring stays permanently on the back of the lens. The tripod mount
bayonets onto this ring and is then locked by tightening a thumb
screw. The lens is then mounted onto the camera and the tripod
mount attached to the tripod head. To rotate the camera/lens, the
thumb screw is loosened and the lens rotated within the mount.

I'm not as savvy with the internet as with the camera, so I've not
yet worked out how to upload pictures to dpreview. I'll send you
it by e-mail.

Much appreciated. I assume you feel this design works ok.

I think the way Dpreview works is that you post a picture on an external server, like, smugmug, and then just paste the link to that location in the post.

Thanks
Michael

Jon

--
CanonMacro

 

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks to you and Tony for the collar suggestion. I found it online
but no pictures of how it mounts. Any chance you could post a shot
of your setup ?

Sorry, I don't have pictures, I can usually find more interesting things to photograph than my gear!!

I use tripod mounts on my 70-200 L and Sigma 50-500 (which is aptly nicknamed Bigma). They work just great.

The collar fixes around your lens and the foot attaches to your tripod head. (I use a Manfrotto 3-way). Thus the lens is what's actually mounted to the tripod; the camera just 'hangs off the back of the lens'.

Unlocking the collar allows you to rotate the lens/camera for portrait/landscape orientation, so there's no undoing/resetting the head.

I leave the mounts permanently attached to the lenses, it takes up a little more room in the bag, but saves time setting up.
--
Regards,
Tony Brooks



'The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or touched...but are felt in the heart.' - Helen Keller

 

[John down under]

I use a junior geared head where I need fine control. I can easily adjust incrementally in all three axes by slightly turing each knob until the framing is right. It's much easier than unlocking and locking a ball head each time you want to tweak the framing slightly and hoping the position is then going to be right.

--
Cheers from John from Adelaide, South Australia
John Harvey Photography http://johnharvey.com.au
Canon 20D & Fuji F10