The Long Slow Process of Learning and Applying New Applications

[Maxxum Fan]

The way in which you (and some other here) share your view appears to be quite arrogant, offensive, not to say hateful. If that is the way you communicate to people that allow you to use their work for free, then you should not be surprised to be ignored.

It ain't arrogant or offensive it's feedback that's it. Didn't shout at anyone on the street man so chill

Keep with your unaware, 5 year old "no it isn't!" logic.

Man up a bit no room for snowflakes who can't handle some software critique

 

[His Dudeness]

The way in which you (and some other here) share your view appears to be quite arrogant, offensive, not to say hateful. If that is the way you communicate to people that allow you to use their work for free, then you should not be surprised to be ignored.

It ain't arrogant or offensive it's feedback that's it. Didn't shout at anyone on the street man so chill

If you bother to read the posts by the devs about Darktable you'll see many comments asking about UI, and the devs just argue against them.

It is totally fine that the devs argue against critique. First of all, keep in mind that these devs don't work for you or any of these complaining users. So, if you or one of these users want's something to be changed, you may ask politely and avoid to be demanding. Skilled devs do things for reason. It is typical for open source and also in case of darktable the devs are also users. This gives even more weight to their decisions.

These devs are arrogant and refuse to listen to users I ain't alone

There is feedback from user complaining about this or that (like too many module, too many parameters or whatever). However, a lot of it lacks substance. In contrast to devs, most users don't have enough overview to anticipate and asses the implications that come with changing something.

Let's take the removal of modules as an example: It is technically easy to remove modules, but (among other problems) it has consequences for all existing edits that use these modules. To deal with this you need to introduce additional migration concepts. A lot of work for little benefit. Currently, users can simply deactivate the modules they don't need and backward compatibility is well maintained. Totally reasnonable and extremely simple. For sure, you can find different solutions, but it must be worth the effort.

Just because it may be slightly challenging for beginners to decide which modules to keep, it gives additional freedom to advanced users. I am using darktable for many years now and I have been a beginner for quite a short time. So spending most of the time ni a program as an advanced user, I prefer this program to focus on advanced users and not on beginners.

Lol dude you are alone on that seems you can't handle anyone being critical of this doomed project. People don't like it end of. It's got no appeal and a tiny user base who refuse to get with modern UI

I simply challenged your critique. Seems like your critique cannot stand a discussion. I think otherwise you would come up with arguments.

It's not what open source software should be

It is not up to you to decide this. The devs and contributors rule.

Yeah they do that's why very few people will use this bad software

 

[LegacyGT]

The way in which you (and some other here) share your view appears to be quite arrogant, offensive, not to say hateful. If that is the way you communicate to people that allow you to use their work for free, then you should not be surprised to be ignored.

It ain't arrogant or offensive it's feedback that's it. Didn't shout at anyone on the street man so chill

If you bother to read the posts by the devs about Darktable you'll see many comments asking about UI, and the devs just argue against them.

It is totally fine that the devs argue against critique. First of all, keep in mind that these devs don't work for you or any of these complaining users. So, if you or one of these users want's something to be changed, you may ask politely and avoid to be demanding. Skilled devs do things for reason. It is typical for open source and also in case of darktable the devs are also users. This gives even more weight to their decisions.

These devs are arrogant and refuse to listen to users I ain't alone

There is feedback from user complaining about this or that (like too many module, too many parameters or whatever). However, a lot of it lacks substance. In contrast to devs, most users don't have enough overview to anticipate and asses the implications that come with changing something.

Let's take the removal of modules as an example: It is technically easy to remove modules, but (among other problems) it has consequences for all existing edits that use these modules. To deal with this you need to introduce additional migration concepts. A lot of work for little benefit. Currently, users can simply deactivate the modules they don't need and backward compatibility is well maintained. Totally reasnonable and extremely simple. For sure, you can find different solutions, but it must be worth the effort.

Just because it may be slightly challenging for beginners to decide which modules to keep, it gives additional freedom to advanced users. I am using darktable for many years now and I have been a beginner for quite a short time. So spending most of the time ni a program as an advanced user, I prefer this program to focus on advanced users and not on beginners.

Lol dude you are alone on that seems you can't handle anyone being critical of this doomed project. People don't like it end of. It's got no appeal and a tiny user base who refuse to get with modern UI

I simply challenged your critique. Seems like your critique cannot stand a discussion. I think otherwise you would come up with arguments.

It's not what open source software should be

It is not up to you to decide this. The devs and contributors rule.

Yeah they do that's why very few people will use this bad software

Maxxum Fan is either a troll, or just someone who is a social bour who can't figure out why people don't immediately agree with him.

You can see him doing similar things here

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4486491?page=3

and here

Loading…

www.dpreview.com

and a few other place in the couple of days that he's been a member of DPreview.

Either way, I think you should just ignore him. He eventually goes away to spread his opinions elsewhere.

 

[Maxxum Fan]

The way in which you (and some other here) share your view appears to be quite arrogant, offensive, not to say hateful. If that is the way you communicate to people that allow you to use their work for free, then you should not be surprised to be ignored.

It ain't arrogant or offensive it's feedback that's it. Didn't shout at anyone on the street man so chill

If you bother to read the posts by the devs about Darktable you'll see many comments asking about UI, and the devs just argue against them.

It is totally fine that the devs argue against critique. First of all, keep in mind that these devs don't work for you or any of these complaining users. So, if you or one of these users want's something to be changed, you may ask politely and avoid to be demanding. Skilled devs do things for reason. It is typical for open source and also in case of darktable the devs are also users. This gives even more weight to their decisions.

These devs are arrogant and refuse to listen to users I ain't alone

There is feedback from user complaining about this or that (like too many module, too many parameters or whatever). However, a lot of it lacks substance. In contrast to devs, most users don't have enough overview to anticipate and asses the implications that come with changing something.

Let's take the removal of modules as an example: It is technically easy to remove modules, but (among other problems) it has consequences for all existing edits that use these modules. To deal with this you need to introduce additional migration concepts. A lot of work for little benefit. Currently, users can simply deactivate the modules they don't need and backward compatibility is well maintained. Totally reasnonable and extremely simple. For sure, you can find different solutions, but it must be worth the effort.

Just because it may be slightly challenging for beginners to decide which modules to keep, it gives additional freedom to advanced users. I am using darktable for many years now and I have been a beginner for quite a short time. So spending most of the time ni a program as an advanced user, I prefer this program to focus on advanced users and not on beginners.

Lol dude you are alone on that seems you can't handle anyone being critical of this doomed project. People don't like it end of. It's got no appeal and a tiny user base who refuse to get with modern UI

I simply challenged your critique. Seems like your critique cannot stand a discussion. I think otherwise you would come up with arguments.

It's not what open source software should be

It is not up to you to decide this. The devs and contributors rule.

Yeah they do that's why very few people will use this bad software

Maxxum Fan is either a troll, or just someone who is a social bour who can't figure out why people don't immediately agree with him.

You can see him doing similar things here

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4486491?page=3

and here

https://www.dpreview.com/samples/40...mm-f3-5-4-8-sample-gallery?comment=4847781454

and a few other place in the couple of days that he's been a member of DPreview.

Either way, I think you should just ignore him. He eventually goes away to spread his opinions elsewhere.

Do a google search on darktable and what people think of it, quite revealing so call them trolls too it's feedback devs need to listen to badly

 

[LegacyGT]

The way in which you (and some other here) share your view appears to be quite arrogant, offensive, not to say hateful. If that is the way you communicate to people that allow you to use their work for free, then you should not be surprised to be ignored.

It ain't arrogant or offensive it's feedback that's it. Didn't shout at anyone on the street man so chill

If you bother to read the posts by the devs about Darktable you'll see many comments asking about UI, and the devs just argue against them.

It is totally fine that the devs argue against critique. First of all, keep in mind that these devs don't work for you or any of these complaining users. So, if you or one of these users want's something to be changed, you may ask politely and avoid to be demanding. Skilled devs do things for reason. It is typical for open source and also in case of darktable the devs are also users. This gives even more weight to their decisions.

These devs are arrogant and refuse to listen to users I ain't alone

There is feedback from user complaining about this or that (like too many module, too many parameters or whatever). However, a lot of it lacks substance. In contrast to devs, most users don't have enough overview to anticipate and asses the implications that come with changing something.

Let's take the removal of modules as an example: It is technically easy to remove modules, but (among other problems) it has consequences for all existing edits that use these modules. To deal with this you need to introduce additional migration concepts. A lot of work for little benefit. Currently, users can simply deactivate the modules they don't need and backward compatibility is well maintained. Totally reasnonable and extremely simple. For sure, you can find different solutions, but it must be worth the effort.

Just because it may be slightly challenging for beginners to decide which modules to keep, it gives additional freedom to advanced users. I am using darktable for many years now and I have been a beginner for quite a short time. So spending most of the time ni a program as an advanced user, I prefer this program to focus on advanced users and not on beginners.

Lol dude you are alone on that seems you can't handle anyone being critical of this doomed project. People don't like it end of. It's got no appeal and a tiny user base who refuse to get with modern UI

I simply challenged your critique. Seems like your critique cannot stand a discussion. I think otherwise you would come up with arguments.

It's not what open source software should be

It is not up to you to decide this. The devs and contributors rule.

Yeah they do that's why very few people will use this bad software

Maxxum Fan is either a troll, or just someone who is a social bour who can't figure out why people don't immediately agree with him.

You can see him doing similar things here

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4486491?page=3

and here

https://www.dpreview.com/samples/40...mm-f3-5-4-8-sample-gallery?comment=4847781454

and a few other place in the couple of days that he's been a member of DPreview.

Either way, I think you should just ignore him. He eventually goes away to spread his opinions elsewhere.

Do a google search on darktable and what people think of it, quite revealing so call them trolls too it's feedback devs need to listen to badly

The question is what are you bringing to the table (in terms of forum discussion).

As far as I can see, multiple people on multiple forums/threads have complained that you like to provide strong opinions without actually backing any that up with really evidence. When challenged, it seems you like to hand-wave, dodge, and/or demand other people to do the work that you should have done yourself to help prove support your claim. In my case I did do a Google search to look at "what people thought" except I found an site you didn't like... and you again basically said "No that review didn't agree with me, it must be wrong... go look again"

Oh btw... you never did answer my question about what Fuji body you were using when you said you tried out the Fuji 16-80 lens. What was it? Can you link to some full resolution test photos?

 

[sabrina81]

On the one hand the new applications are a refreshing breeze of new refinements and utility, but on the other, a burden of time consuming Learning Curves, often with very rudimentary sparse documentation, supported by some Videos.

Rather than spend time learning new applications, I would be inclined -- I am inclined -- to focus on turning out better work with the old application.

Michelangelo (and other great classical artists) developed their skills by concentrating on the fundamentals of drawing, not by learning to use every variety of pencil.

Fully with you. Although in the SW world the tools we use are really different by design ... not just varieties of the same pencils. You know it VERY well!

I didn't say varieties of "the same pencils." New varieties of pencils would differ from the old ones "by design." You're drawing a distinction without a difference. You don't develop your artistic eye or your aesthetic judgment -- nor sharpen your skills in applying them -- by building a larger collection of tools.

A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used.

 

[Zeee]

I tried Capture One for the 3rd time. A capable editor with very good colour editing capabilities which I don’t really need. If I was a pro portrait, etc photographer I’d more than likely have it in my tool box. At 100 ISO there is little difference between it and LR/DXO of which I own both.

I was never a big fan of Colorchecker Passport because I did not find some colour saturation not pleasing. I decided to dust it off, created new profiles and made daylight my default at import. I’m going to use that for a month and then flip back to my preferred Camera profiles and see what happens. I have to say even when I tried it years ago and this month I find the skin tones are pleasing.

I had issues with Topaz AI Clear and I suspect it was due to my iMac not having enough VRAM. I got a new one, downloaded it again and now it is DeNoise AI with Clear. I’m getting better results. I also purchased Sharpen AI primarily for the Stabilize feature.

 

[irv00]

I didn't say varieties of "the same pencils." New varieties of pencils would differ from the old ones "by design." You're drawing a distinction without a difference. You don't develop your artistic eye or your aesthetic judgment -- nor sharpen your skills in applying them -- by building a larger collection of tools.

A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used.

That type of honest, simple and useful advice is not welcome by most people here - they look for artistry in the tools they use.

That’s why the jump from tool to tool, never happy with the results of their own work. But it’s not the tool.

 

[flyinglentris]

I didn't say varieties of "the same pencils." New varieties of pencils would differ from the old ones "by design." You're drawing a distinction without a difference. You don't develop your artistic eye or your aesthetic judgment -- nor sharpen your skills in applying them -- by building a larger collection of tools.

A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used.

That type of honest, simple and useful advice is not welcome by most people here - they look for artistry in the tools they use.

That’s why the jump from tool to tool, never happy with the results of their own work. But it’s not the tool.

Actually, I am jumping to new tools because it has been over a decade since I invested in new software tools and at this time, there are some good ones that have matured and are available for cheap that improve on my ancient CS4 Adobe Suite stuff.

Seriously, some of us are not jumping around like some fools do, collecting this camera and that and then discarding them to go after some other camera, always switching so they can gab it up in the Open Talk Forum and thump their chests. Instead, it's a simple matter of the time being right and we appreciate hearing the rhetoric and personal experiences of those who have tried the new stuff and have valid comments.

When your pencil breaks or your pen runs out of ink, its time for a replacement.

 

[sabrina81]

That’s why the jump from tool to tool, never happy with the results of their own work. But it’s not the tool.

Exactly. A good test for whether one is overly "tool-centric" is this simple edit, which required only the basic tools that Photoshop and Elements have provided for decades, long before the CS series was developed:

If you couldn't look at the original (left) and envision the outcome (right), even the fanciest tools can't get you there. I think this is the single biggest handicap I see on DPR: the inability to "see" the potential in an unedited image so that you have a clear result in mind as you edit. And I'm afraid this handicap is enabled by the fascination with the latest and greatest new tools. As you said, it's not the tool.

 

[irv00]

I didn't say varieties of "the same pencils." New varieties of pencils would differ from the old ones "by design." You're drawing a distinction without a difference. You don't develop your artistic eye or your aesthetic judgment -- nor sharpen your skills in applying them -- by building a larger collection of tools.

A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used.

That type of honest, simple and useful advice is not welcome by most people here - they look for artistry in the tools they use.

That’s why the jump from tool to tool, never happy with the results of their own work. But it’s not the tool.

Actually, I am jumping to new tools because it has been over a decade since I invested in new software tools and at this time, there are some good ones that have matured and are available for cheap that improve on my ancient CS4 Adobe Suite stuff.

Seriously, some of us are not jumping around like some fools do, collecting this camera and that and then discarding them to go after some other camera, always switching so they can gab it up in the Open Talk Forum and thump their chests. Instead, it's a simple matter of the time being right and we appreciate hearing the rhetoric and personal experiences of those who have tried the new stuff and have valid comments.

When your pencil breaks or your pen runs out of ink, its time for a replacement.

Well, I was not referring to anyone in particular.

 

[bastibe]

I recently did a big comparison of RAW processors as well, although for a slightly different reason: faced with choice, I tend to become overwhelmed, and can't stop thinking "what if". What am I missing, by limiting my knowledge to one tool? What if my pictures could turn out better, with less effort?

And the only antidote I know is to try them all. So I did, and you may read about it over here: https://bastibe.de/2020-05-01-raw-developer-comparison.html

I took a bit of a different approach than most comparisons I have read: I simply can not deeply learn a dozen tools with the required depth to wield them well. So instead, I will edit a few pictures with clear defects with only, say, the highlight recovery tools, and see how the results compare. Which does explicitly not evaluate "features" or workflows, but at least is somewhat objective.

I tried the "just play around" approach as well, but the only thing that did for me was make me even more confused, and blur the differences between tools even further. They are all capable of editing an image after all.

The conclusion of this experiment was successful; I can again sleep at night without worrying about image editing software. And happily use Darktable as I used to, safe in the knowledge that it is perfectly adequate for my uses. And I did learn a few new techniques on the way.

What I found in terms of processing, however, was extremely surprising: most RAW editors show obvious and severe artifacts and aberrations. Never mind detail rendering, denoising, and color rendering. I'm talking about magenta fringes on every burned highlight, huge rings around a sunset, colors bleeding from a subject to the background.

The best in terms of these aberrations, was without a doubt Lightroom, a program I don't enjoy using for as of yet badly understood reasons. And, surprisingly, my venerable Darktable actually fares very well in this regard, no doubt partly due to my familiarity with it.

Perhaps it is my background as a scientist and software developer, but Darktable simply fits my way of thinking very well. It allows me to reason about an image in signal processing terms, which is familiar and comfortable to me.

And thankfully, there are so many approaches available out there, from scientific Darktable, to the very polished and "designed" Capture One, the workflow-optimized Lightroom, to the magic AI automation of Luminar. Everyone ought to be able to find a tool that fits their preferences in that enormous list.

 

[HiddenMan]

By the way, yes, I'm sorry that I am responding to your message, but I also discovered new applications in quarantine. The most surprising thing for me was how heavy and clumsy the “machine” I used, and now it’s much easier (I'm talking about Adobe). So there is the benefit and benefit of new knowledge and quarantine.

 

[Mika Y.]

Lol dude you are alone on that seems you can't handle anyone being critical of this doomed project. People don't like it end of. It's got no appeal and a tiny user base who refuse to get with modern UI

Even though your style and comparatively new profile reminds me of a certain member with a tendency of burning through new accounts and focusing on being provocative, I'm sure you can provide us actual statistics about the number of active DT users over time, rather than just presenting opinions as facts?

As for the DT being doomed, the actual statistics about commits do not look like it's a particularly doomed and stalling project:

https://www.openhub.net/p/darktable

 

[hobo]

I didn't say varieties of "the same pencils." New varieties of pencils would differ from the old ones "by design." You're drawing a distinction without a difference. You don't develop your artistic eye or your aesthetic judgment -- nor sharpen your skills in applying them -- by building a larger collection of tools.

A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used.

That type of honest, simple and useful advice is not welcome by most people here - they look for artistry in the tools they use.

That’s why the jump from tool to tool, never happy with the results of their own work. But it’s not the tool.

We are talking about different things, for me. If you did your homework somewhere in the past and know well what and how to do - perfect. If you can keep all your SW tools under control after all the updates, upgrades, camera and workflow changes and migrations from OS to OS - even better. Simply no need to jump from tool to tool, sure thing.

All the SW tools are different in terms of functionality, features, performance, UI, learning curve, documentation quality, price, already known bugs and other stuff. See the subject of the topic: The Long Slow Process of Learning and Applying New Applications. Would be great to know more about it from the forum members.

PS ... And big Yes - "A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used." . No doubt. Simply nothing to discuss. How can it help us - in reality?

 

[flyinglentris]

By the way, yes, I'm sorry that I am responding to your message, but I also discovered new applications in quarantine. The most surprising thing for me was how heavy and clumsy the “machine” I used, and now it’s much easier (I'm talking about Adobe). So there is the benefit and benefit of new knowledge and quarantine.

The two biggest NEW features of the new Software Editing Tools which I take particular note of are 1) The Non-destructive Edit and Adjustment features which go beyond RAW and 2) the incorporation of DAM (Document Access Management) features. Both of these, of course, enhance Workflows.

Members who argue that, like most things, the photographer's vision, makes for good results, no matter what the camera or the software, have their correctness. But, hey, stop and think for a minute about managing your correctness. Time is an essential that is most importantly manageable. And the new NDE and DAM features of newer applications are welcome features for me. An expansion of Mask and Layer capabilities is also notable in the new tools and are defacto, the means of NDE in some apps.. I've always been a huge fan of Layers, but members might be surprised to understand all of my reasons. Selection Tools are also big on my list of goodies that I look for in new applications.

Of course, cross-application or multi-application workflows have their pitfalls, often at the expense of NDE. I did open a thread a while back to explore member thoughts on Multi-Application Workflows. And where more than one applications offers DAM features, a choice has to made regarding which to use. For me, it looks like Capture One Pro will become the HUB of my multi-application workflow with Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher being the follow-on, possibly supplemented by something else, even Canon's Utilities or the old horse, Adobe CS4 and things like GIMP.

 

[sabrina81]

PS ... And big Yes - "A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used." . No doubt. Simply nothing to discuss. How can it help us - in reality?

By reminding us that the degree to which we develop aesthetic vision (the ability to "see" what could be) determines the degree to which we can produce beautiful images.

 

[sabrina81]

Members who argue that, like most things, the photographer's vision, makes for good results, no matter what the camera or the software, ...

I'm not sure who you're referring to here, but I do want to stress that I didn't take that position in my earlier posts.

 

[hobo]

PS ... And big Yes - "A top professional editor (think Gry Garness, Natalia Taffarel, Erik Johnsson -- pros of that caliber) could use an obsolete version of Photoshop Elements and far outperform everyone on this forum, regardless of what software we used." . No doubt. Simply nothing to discuss. How can it help us - in reality?

By reminding us that the degree to which we develop aesthetic vision (the ability to "see" what could be) determines the degree to which we can produce beautiful images.

Well, going back to your list of pros above: I am 200% sure that they all have top editing skills, many years of learning, field experience and practice, their own understanding of what is good and not-so-good, strong focus on the results and many other competencies of top professionals in any area. Am I wrong?

Developing an aesthetic vision is a long process, for me, good it or bad. And nothing is guaranteed. A really broad topic - and definitely not software-related.

 

[sabrina81]

Developing an aesthetic vision is a long process, for me, good it or bad. And nothing is guaranteed. A really broad topic - and definitely not software-related.

I disagree. I think they're related in this sense: The time spent climbing the learning curve of new software is time not spent developing aesthetic judgment. My point is simply that those who continually seek the latest and and most sophisticated software probably aren't becoming better editors in the process.