Technical inaccuracy in Foveon press release?

[Bob Williams]

Gary, the posts talking about black and white resolution are
referring to the resolution capable with a CCD that is not
color masked or using the Bayer interpolation, not to the
B&W modes of the present cameras. The effects of
removing the color from a capture that has already been thru the
Bayer interpolation is a zero gain, but is pleasing with some
images anyway.

Peter, that makes a lot of sense, that colors can throw off the end
result, but then why do so many people (including in this thread)
say that you'd get the full uninterpolated resolution with B&W
mode? I suppose the real proof would be try to construct a
resolution test. Is there any place I can download and print a
resolution test pattern? (Hmm, actually, shouldn't I be able to
programmatically create one?!)

I don't really remember seeing a serious claim that b&w mode on
Mosaic cameras would capture more detail. I would suspect that in
some cases when you get colour fringing artifacts from mosaic, the
image may "appear" better because it lacks the obvious colour
frining. Its still there, just less visible with the obvious colour
effects removed.

For example; Some cameras produce coloured moire in their res chart
photos, now if you desaturate that shot, it looks better since you
know it should be black and white. The absence of any colour makes
it look better and more in line with expectations, but it is not
sharper.



Download this clip and convert to greyscale and see how much better
it "looks". Its is certainly no sharper from converting to
greyscale.

I also think if there were an algorithm that could produce a better
B&W resolution, it would be mixed with the Chroma info from the
current algorithm to produce the best of both worlds.

Peter

 

[digital100]

the new chip is just like going from a single chip video camera to a 3 chip video camera.

A single chip DIGITAL video camera can produce a 720 x 480 image size but like a standard digital still camera it uses only ONE chip to grab all the image information.

A 3 chip digital video camera including the high end ones used by TV stations produces a 720 x 480 image size also but the image information is coming from 3 chips.. red, blue and green just like the new foveon chip

the 3 chips or 3 colors mixed produce a much finer and better looking image that has more resolution with in the same image size as the single chip cameras.

this is why your single chip vhs, svhs or digital camera never looks as good as a pro video camera..its the same image size but has less information with in the image.

A 6 MP camera like the D60 or D100 can shoot a great image but the camera has to do a lot or processing to the image to make it come out right by filling in pixels as needed to make a good image just like a single chip video camera.

A foveon chip is like a 3 chip video camera it grabs 3 times or more of image information and produces a image that needs no extra work from the camera to fill in pixels as it has so many more to work with so you end up with a image that is full of much detail and much better color.

up sizing a image..

when editing video or a still image a 3 chip video image can be resized or cropped and resized up much larger then a single chip cameras image and still look good.
this holds true for a 3 layer foveon chip image.

if you take a 7.5 mg raw D60 image and a 7.5mb raw foveon chip shot image they are both the same size just like a one chip and a three chip video camera image.

The Foveon shot image will have three times or more of color and image information with in the same 7.5 file size just like a 3 chip video camera has over a single chip.

now when you up size both images to a large print size like 20 x 30 they both will look good but the Foveon shot image still has 3 times as much image info so it will look better and will be able to go up to larger sizes much better.

this is why Foveon is moving into the video world also as their one chip can do what takes 3 chips to do and do it better and faster!

In http://www.foveon.com/press_X3_business.html , Foveon claims that:

"By capturing three colors at every pixel instead of just one,
Foveon X3 based cameras have measured information for all three
colors. This results in high quality photographs with fewer numbers
of pixels because the pixels are based on real measurements. Fewer
pixels results in smaller file sizes allowing digital camera users
to send a higher quality photograph more quickly through e-mail. It
also means that more digital photos can be stored on a digital
camera storage card."

Now can someone help me wrap my head around the concept of smaller
file sizes through the use of the Foveon sensor?

The way I understand it, for a given pixel in an image, you have
(three times the colour depth) bits per pixel. An image captured
by the Foveon sensor would have each of the three colour values per
pixel. An image captured with a standard CCD would have
information for each pixel composed of values measured by separate
R, G, and B sensors. So if all of the sensors were the same size,
the standard CCD would have to be three times as dense, but for
each pixel, there is still the same number of bits for each of R,
G, and B.

Kevin

 

[DavidMillier]

This is a useful analogy but please note that the foveon would only contain x3 the information of a bayer if the chips were the same pixel count.

The 6MP bayers have 6 million CFA masked light sensors which are processed to produce 6 million full colour image pixels.

The foveon has around 10 million colour specific light sensors which are used to produce 3.4 million full colour image pixels.

The current foveon therefore has less than approximately x2 the information collecters of a 6MP bayer.

Hopefully, the lack of a bayer CFA and subsequent processing means the foveon will live up to the twice as sharp and detailed hype and will give quality equivalent to or possibly slightly better than the 6MP bayers.

If it does, the quicker they can produce a 6MP foveon the better!

A single chip DIGITAL video camera can produce a 720 x 480 image
size but like a standard digital still camera it uses only ONE chip
to grab all the image information.

A 3 chip digital video camera including the high end ones used by
TV stations produces a 720 x 480 image size also but the image
information is coming from 3 chips.. red, blue and green just like
the new foveon chip

the 3 chips or 3 colors mixed produce a much finer and better
looking image that has more resolution with in the same image size
as the single chip cameras.

this is why your single chip vhs, svhs or digital camera never
looks as good as a pro video camera..its the same image size but
has less information with in the image.

A 6 MP camera like the D60 or D100 can shoot a great image but the
camera has to do a lot or processing to the image to make it come
out right by filling in pixels as needed to make a good image just
like a single chip video camera.

A foveon chip is like a 3 chip video camera it grabs 3 times or
more of image information and produces a image that needs no extra
work from the camera to fill in pixels as it has so many more to
work with so you end up with a image that is full of much detail
and much better color.

up sizing a image..
when editing video or a still image a 3 chip video image can be
resized or cropped and resized up much larger then a single chip
cameras image and still look good.
this holds true for a 3 layer foveon chip image.

if you take a 7.5 mg raw D60 image and a 7.5mb raw foveon chip shot
image they are both the same size just like a one chip and a three
chip video camera image.
The Foveon shot image will have three times or more of color and
image information with in the same 7.5 file size just like a 3 chip
video camera has over a single chip.

now when you up size both images to a large print size like 20 x 30
they both will look good but the Foveon shot image still has 3
times as much image info so it will look better and will be able to
go up to larger sizes much better.

this is why Foveon is moving into the video world also as their one
chip can do what takes 3 chips to do and do it better and faster!

In http://www.foveon.com/press_X3_business.html , Foveon claims that:

"By capturing three colors at every pixel instead of just one,
Foveon X3 based cameras have measured information for all three
colors. This results in high quality photographs with fewer numbers
of pixels because the pixels are based on real measurements. Fewer
pixels results in smaller file sizes allowing digital camera users
to send a higher quality photograph more quickly through e-mail. It
also means that more digital photos can be stored on a digital
camera storage card."

Now can someone help me wrap my head around the concept of smaller
file sizes through the use of the Foveon sensor?

The way I understand it, for a given pixel in an image, you have
(three times the colour depth) bits per pixel. An image captured
by the Foveon sensor would have each of the three colour values per
pixel. An image captured with a standard CCD would have
information for each pixel composed of values measured by separate
R, G, and B sensors. So if all of the sensors were the same size,
the standard CCD would have to be three times as dense, but for
each pixel, there is still the same number of bits for each of R,
G, and B.

Kevin

 

[Mark H]

Foveon will resolve about 2x the "spatial" resolution in the red and blue channel. This will make a significant difference, making the Foveon 3.4MP significantly better than a Bayer 6MP.

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