Tech Tips by Chuck Westfall

[Badbatz]

And the 1DsIII hasn't been shipping yet for quite a year, IIRC.
Facts not your strong suit, eh?

Actually, it has for exactly one year but (to quote myself)

(1D3 is almost excatly the same camera body that was relesed a year
and a half ago)

Still, 18 months, one year or 11 1/2 months - it is a real, best of breed, camera...

 

[Badbatz]

What's amusing is that everyone keeps missing the point. I and
others like me are not in the 5D market. We're in the market for
something between the 5D MKII and the 1Ds MKIII.

Get a Nikon: man, cameras are tools why bother waiting...

You're right,
different needs, and so forth. I don't want a cinder block sized
camera like the 1Ds. Doing landscapes, hiking, and doing a lot of
other outdoor sports require a smaller and lighter camera, but with a
pro build and weather-sealing. If I was sitting in a studio, then
the 1Ds would be just fine.

I dunno... before my 5D become a nice underwater ornament , it had traveled with my all over the world, shooting in all weather conditions (including high seas on a smallish yacht) w/o a hitch (yeah, I did use rain covers of all sorts including plastic bags held by rubber bands...) and it held up for almost two years. With 1Ds3/1D3 I can shoot without rain covers: trust me, my 1Ds3 (and 1Ds2) spend more time outdoors than in a studio and heft - really - is not a big deal (but take it from a guy who used to schlep a 5x7 Arca-Swiss in the Andes.) And if you dream of a "baby" 1Ds3 for $3K - well, so do I but then I wake up...

 

[Garrett Lucas]

What's amusing is that everyone keeps missing the point. I and
others like me are not in the 5D market. We're in the market for
something between the 5D MKII and the 1Ds MKIII.

Get a Nikon: man, cameras are tools why bother waiting...

Well, because Nikon hasn't gotten the high MP's need for the detail in landscapes and so forth. But, I imagine they will fairly soon.

You're right,
different needs, and so forth. I don't want a cinder block sized
camera like the 1Ds. Doing landscapes, hiking, and doing a lot of
other outdoor sports require a smaller and lighter camera, but with a
pro build and weather-sealing. If I was sitting in a studio, then
the 1Ds would be just fine.

I dunno... before my 5D become a nice underwater ornament , it had
traveled with my all over the world, shooting in all weather
conditions (including high seas on a smallish yacht) w/o a hitch
(yeah, I did use rain covers of all sorts including plastic bags held
by rubber bands...) and it held up for almost two years. With
1Ds3/1D3 I can shoot without rain covers: trust me, my 1Ds3 (and
1Ds2) spend more time outdoors than in a studio and heft - really -
is not a big deal (but take it from a guy who used to schlep a 5x7
Arca-Swiss in the Andes.) And if you dream of a "baby" 1Ds3 for $3K

• well, so do I but then I wake up...

I don't get why people don't read what's written entirely. Never said I wanted a baby 1Ds3 for 3K. I've posted multiple times that I'm willing to pay another 2K (for a total of $4500-5000) and they can keep the high FPS.

I have a 5D right now as well, and I've had a 1D MKII in the past. It's not a good camera to put in a backpack for hiking expeditions or other active outdoors sports where weight considerations are primary. If you carried a 5x7 in the Andes, more power to you. I don't want to do that.

 

[AlanG]

Some can be trickled down cheaply, but a huge mirror
box/prism/viewfinder, for example, cost serious money. And don't
forget that 1Ds3 is an 18 month old camera (I start counting from the
release of 1D3, pretty much the same body) so I certainly hope that
5D2 has "a few" way more technologicaly advanced features. But if you
shoot with 1Ds3 and 5D, you know the difference...The gap has
narrowed a bit with 5D2 but has by no means closed.

I am familiar with the 1D series having owned a 1Ds and 1DII. But how do we explain that a 1DsIII costs more than a 1DIII plus a 5DII? (Consider that the only significant difference between the 1DsIII and the 1DIII is the sensor size.)

--
Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com
Galleries:
http://www.photoshelter.com/usr-show/U0000PjmCIXEp.NI

 

[Ross Becker]

There's a huge number of good arguments here in this thread. However, how many of you have been involved in the manufacturing of high end products?
Let's look at some figures plucked out of the air.
Cost of the development of the 1Ds3 - $20M
Cost of the development of the 1D3 - $20M
Cost of the development of the 5DII - $15M
Cost of setting up the production line for the 1Ds3 - $2M
Cost of setting up the production line for the 1D3 - $2M
Cost of setting up the production line for the 5DII - $1M (much simpler camera)
Number of units sold to amortise the development cost of 1Ds3 - 5000
Number of units sold to amortise the development cost of 1D3 - 15,000
Number of units sold to amortise the development cost of 5DII - 250,000
Costs of parts for 1 unit of 1Ds3 - $1500
Costs of parts for 1 unit of 1D3 - $1000 (this sensor is much cheaper)
Costs of parts for 1 unit of 5DII - $1000 (same sensor cost as 1Ds3)
Total unit cost of 1Ds3 = $22M/5000=$4400+$1500=$5900 per unit
Total unit cost of 1D3 = $22M/15,000=$1467+$1000=$2467 per unit
Total unit cost of 5DII = $16M/250,000=$64+$1000=$1064 per unit

These figures are purely hypothetical but I'm sure are relative & makes very clear why the cameras are so differently priced - it's all to do with the projected sales volume.

--
Ross Becker
New Zealand

 

[bronxbombers]

is not a big deal (but take it from a guy who used to schlep a 5x7
Arca-Swiss in the Andes.) And if you dream of a "baby" 1Ds3 for $3K

• well, so do I but then I wake up...

why should it be such a shocking dream, nikon may have one in another 12 months

 

[bronxbombers]

but now that the 1ds shares sensor with the 5dmkii these numbers are all off and canon also USED to claim that it was the sensor that cost more than everything else combined plus more.

also it doesn't show that a slightly higher spec 5dmkii would've had to cost $2000 more.

also, since the 5dmkii uses almost the same everything that has existed before, moreso than the other bodies here the development cost should be lower (well there is the video, however that will be spread across all models shortly)

There's a huge number of good arguments here in this thread. However,
how many of you have been involved in the manufacturing of high end
products?
Let's look at some figures plucked out of the air.
Cost of the development of the 1Ds3 - $20M
Cost of the development of the 1D3 - $20M
Cost of the development of the 5DII - $15M
Cost of setting up the production line for the 1Ds3 - $2M
Cost of setting up the production line for the 1D3 - $2M
Cost of setting up the production line for the 5DII - $1M (much
simpler camera)
Number of units sold to amortise the development cost of 1Ds3 - 5000
Number of units sold to amortise the development cost of 1D3 - 15,000
Number of units sold to amortise the development cost of 5DII - 250,000
Costs of parts for 1 unit of 1Ds3 - $1500
Costs of parts for 1 unit of 1D3 - $1000 (this sensor is much cheaper)
Costs of parts for 1 unit of 5DII - $1000 (same sensor cost as 1Ds3)
Total unit cost of 1Ds3 = $22M/5000=$4400+$1500=$5900 per unit
Total unit cost of 1D3 = $22M/15,000=$1467+$1000=$2467 per unit
Total unit cost of 5DII = $16M/250,000=$64+$1000=$1064 per unit

These figures are purely hypothetical but I'm sure are relative &
makes very clear why the cameras are so differently priced - it's all
to do with the projected sales volume.

--
Ross Becker
New Zealand

 

[Trevor Allen]

agreed, also the A900 is getting very good reports, especially for the colour it produces, you can 2 A900'S & some change for a 1DS3 price, its got to change, its no good Canon just thinking it can protect its DS camara from its own products, otherwise people will buy Nikon & Sony. not everyone is committed Canon with a large investment in its lenses.

Trevor

 

[clarksbrother]

but now that the 1ds shares sensor with the 5dmkii these numbers are
all off and canon also USED to claim that it was the sensor that cost
more than everything else combined plus more.

As stated before, it does NOT share the same sensor. (In many respects the 5D Mark II has an improved sensor)

also it doesn't show that a slightly higher spec 5dmkii would've had
to cost $2000 more.

Maybe not but also keep in mind, Canon didn't necessarily know what the sales figures were going to be for this camera (or that they were going to be this large). Given the demand for this camera, I would expect deep price cuts within 1 years time. They'll remain at the present levels for a bit to capitalize on the initial rush.

also, since the 5dmkii uses almost the same everything that has
existed before, moreso than the other bodies here the development
cost should be lower (well there is the video, however that will be
spread across all models shortly)

I disagree again, while a lot of the technology is based on previous models, it is most certainly not the same. For example, take Live View and movie recording as you have pointed out. Movie recording on a camera that has Live View is just a firmware issue. HOWEVER, that being said there is much more to it actually working properly than that. These sensors generate large amounts of heat when in these modes. These sensors have to be optimized for proper heat dissipation and that is a monumental challenge in terms of design and engineering to get this to work. That's why the 1Ds Mark III will never have video. The heat generated between the sensor and the recording medium would be too great and cause issues. Also - don't forget the Dev cost of Digic 4. Thats a new chipset unique in this camera (so far)

 

[Badbatz]

why should it be such a shocking dream, nikon may have one in another
12 months

Well, come back whn they have it...

 

[bronxbombers]

why should it be such a shocking dream, nikon may have one in another
12 months

Well, come back whn they have it...

and canon could've had it now, they DO have the tech, they AF and shutter/mirror they have had for years and years.

a few hundred dollars more for the 1dmkiin af module/cpu and a faster shutter/mirror.
say $3100-3300 instead of $2700?
split the line 7D and 3D as per early rumours.

if think lots are just frustrated that they came so close to a do it all cam in a small bdy and everyone knows they have the tech and they didn't split the 5D line.

anyway they obviosuly don't give a care to and we are stuck (unless decide to go through a messy switch) or have to either scrape up more $$ and deal with a giant body that we do not at all want or live with slow fps/shutter/mirror and perhaps less than ideal AF (i'm still hopinh it will turn out to be better than i fear and perhaps it will).

 

[bronxbombers]

but now that the 1ds shares sensor with the 5dmkii these numbers are
all off and canon also USED to claim that it was the sensor that cost
more than everything else combined plus more.

As stated before, it does NOT share the same sensor. (In many
respects the 5D Mark II has an improved sensor)

but the base silicon is the same, not sure, but imagine they are using the exact sme piece of silicon in both cams so that should help to lower the 1dsmkiii cost.

also, since the 5dmkii uses almost the same everything that has
existed before, moreso than the other bodies here the development
cost should be lower (well there is the video, however that will be
spread across all models shortly)

I disagree again, while a lot of the technology is based on previous
models, it is most certainly not the same. For example, take Live
View and movie recording as you have pointed out. Movie recording on
a camera that has Live View is just a firmware issue. HOWEVER, that
being said there is much more to it actually working properly than
that. These sensors generate large amounts of heat when in these
modes. These sensors have to be optimized for proper heat dissipation
and that is a monumental challenge in terms of design and engineering
to get this to work. That's why the 1Ds Mark III will never have
video. The heat generated between the sensor and the recording medium
would be too great and cause issues. Also - don't forget the Dev cost
of Digic 4. Thats a new chipset unique in this camera (so far)

digic 4 is in the 50D and that will sell more than any of these
and it will be in the new 1 series
and video
so those costs will be spread across many bodies

they did use the exact same AF module and shutter and mirror and the motors for those. I guess they did make a new prism though.

anyway i was trying to say the 5d was overpriced it's more the 1dsmkiiii that is