Support your local camera store

[Bobthearch]

Donald B wrote:
what a rip off the stores are.

I wonder if store owners feel the same way about their lousy landlords and the lousy rent they have to pay.

Many of my purchases, especially obscure or uncommon or specialized hobby-related items come from small independent stores. They just don't happen to be local.

 

[Bobthearch]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

If the store cannot price match, then yes, that is a problem.

The reason they cannot price match is because they have higher overhead costs by providing hands on try outs by consumers.

B&H, Adorama, and Best Buy also have physical locations, high rent overheads, and allow customers to physically fondle merchandise before purchasing.

 

[mamallama]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

If the store cannot price match, then yes, that is a problem.

The reason they cannot price match is because they have higher overhead costs by providing hands on try outs by consumers.

Agreed. If an online seller and a physical location both sell the same thing and you as a consumer value seeing that item in person and possibly using it, then the physical location is offering you a service that you should gladly pay for. If you won't pay for that service, then taking advantage of it with no intention of purchasing from the business providing you a valuable service then you are just a bad person.

Consumers that do this is partly to blame. It's like killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

 

[Interpol]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

Most local retailers understand that they have the competitive edge on big box and online retailers when it comes to service. What many haven’t realized, however, is that they also need to compete on price.

I am more than willing to pay a little more over online prices to buy locally, but when locals refuse to budge from MSRP - sorry. Most of the time the $ savings is worth more than the advice. Me simply entering your store is no guarantee that I will be spending my money with you, unless you give me great service AND a competitive price. Capitalism at work.

 

[JustUs7]

Own you own store, everyone owned there own premise in the 80s and beyond ,today everyone wants the big house and the expensive car first they have it all backwards.

Don

 

[mamallama]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

If the store cannot price match, then yes, that is a problem.

The reason they cannot price match is because they have higher overhead costs by providing hands on try outs by consumers.

B&H, Adorama, and Best Buy also have physical locations, high rent overheads, and allow customers to physically fondle merchandise before purchasing.

It's a matter of what volume being supported by online sales. It is dubious how much longer Best Buy can continue the practice. Stores like Fry's long ago stopped the practice but they still cannot survive the onslaught of the internet.

 

[Interpol]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

If the store cannot price match, then yes, that is a problem.

The reason they cannot price match is because they have higher overhead costs by providing hands on try outs by consumers.

Agreed. If an online seller and a physical location both sell the same thing and you as a consumer value seeing that item in person and possibly using it, then the physical location is offering you a service that you should gladly pay for. If you won't pay for that service, then taking advantage of it with no intention of purchasing from the business providing you a valuable service then you are just a bad person.

You don’t appear to understand how retail sales work.

Not every person who walks through the door of a business is going to walk out having made a purchase. In fact, a large chunk of the operating cost of any business is simply to entice potential customers to visit their storefront or website. The onus is on the business to incentivize customers to buy from them through convenience, good service, and competitive pricing - if you cannot provide all 3 of these, your business WILL eventually fail.

Honestly, does anyone care if you think they’re a bad person? The sense of satisfaction that they’ve saved some money via smart comparison shopping would make most people not care what your opinion is of them.

 

[Interpol]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

If the store cannot price match, then yes, that is a problem.

The reason they cannot price match is because they have higher overhead costs by providing hands on try outs by consumers.

B&H, Adorama, and Best Buy also have physical locations, high rent overheads, and allow customers to physically fondle merchandise before purchasing.

It's a matter of what volume being supported by online sales. It is dubious how much longer Best Buy can continue the practice. Stores like Fry's long ago stopped the practice but they still cannot survive the onslaught of the internet.

Fry’s has been circling the drain for years now not because of online competition, but because of poor business management and destroying relationships with manufacturers and creditors to the point where they are operating on a pure consignment model now, that has led to rows and rows of empty shelves in the stores that are still open.

Comparatively speaking, Best Buy is doing quite well as a consumer electronics retailer. They have survived other companies like CompUSA, Incredible Universe, Circuit City, Goodguys, and Radio Shack by being more forward looking and leveraging their online sales strategy with their brick and mortar locations, which gives them the best of both worlds in retail.

 

[Thomas A Anderson]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

If the store cannot price match, then yes, that is a problem.

The reason they cannot price match is because they have higher overhead costs by providing hands on try outs by consumers.

Agreed. If an online seller and a physical location both sell the same thing and you as a consumer value seeing that item in person and possibly using it, then the physical location is offering you a service that you should gladly pay for. If you won't pay for that service, then taking advantage of it with no intention of purchasing from the business providing you a valuable service then you are just a bad person.

You don’t appear to understand how retail sales work.

You don't seem to understand what I said. I didn't say walking through the door implied a purchase. I said that walking through the door with NO INTENTION of purchasing from that store, which implies your intent from the beginning is to use the store as a showroom and then purchase from an online retailer.

So if I walked into a store wanting to see a camera in person but was unwilling to pay anything more for that service than a price I found online, then I'm effectively stealing from that store. I used a service and had no intention of compensating them for their sale that will now be going to someone else who would not provide that service. Of course, there's only so far one can go....but here's the trick: I know how much the store in charging before I even go in usually. And let's say I don't know. Even if I don't know the price, I know how much that service is worth before I walk in the door. So if B&H has a camera for $4,000 then I can say with confidence that I'm willing to pay a percentage of the total for the service my local store provides, say a 5% premium. So as long as they'll sell it to me for $4,200 then I'm good.

Not every person who walks through the door of a business is going to walk out having made a purchase.

You misinterpreted what I was saying.

In fact, a large chunk of the operating cost of any business is simply to entice potential customers to visit their storefront or website. The onus is on the business to incentivize customers to buy from them through convenience, good service, and competitive pricing - if you cannot provide all 3 of these, your business WILL eventually fail.

Thank you for pointing out the paaaainfully obvious. You're arguing a point I wasn't making.

Honestly, does anyone care if you think they’re a bad person?

I don't give a flying leap. I was just stating that, as a fact, if your intent from the beginning is to go to a local shop to take advantage of their services with the INTENTION FROM THE VERY BEGINNING to then purchase from someone else, then you're a part of the problem as any thief is.

I didn't say "if you walk in a store and they treat you like garbage and overcharge for their products and services and you don't buy from them then you're a bad person." I'm afraid you took my statement on a incorrect tangent.

The sense of satisfaction that they’ve saved some money via smart comparison shopping would make most people not care what your opinion is of them.

Most horrible people don't have any shame or concern for the existence, much less the opinions, of others. That's lack of concern for who they hurt is exactly what makes them horrible.

 

[Interpol]

You don't seem to understand what I said. I didn't say walking through the door implied a purchase. I said that walking through the door with NO INTENTION of purchasing from that store, which implies your intent from the beginning is to use the store as a showroom and then purchase from an online retailer.

Fair enough. Do you have any hard numbers that back up your implication that this activity is affecting the bottom line of most local businesses in a significant way?

Also, please explain how you would be able to tell the difference between a customer who enters a store to browse a product, ask questions, etc. and leaves without buying anything and one who enters a store with no intention of buying anything to browse a product, ask questions, etc., leaves, and goes home and buys the product online.

My point is, it’s the business owner’s responsibility to earn a customer’s business. If people are coming into your store to fiddle with a product before heading home to buy it online, the only thing you can do about it is to ask why people are doing that and adjust your business model accordingly - because if you don’t, you are going to suffer more than the customer you just lost.

 

[Thomas A Anderson]

You don't seem to understand what I said. I didn't say walking through the door implied a purchase. I said that walking through the door with NO INTENTION of purchasing from that store, which implies your intent from the beginning is to use the store as a showroom and then purchase from an online retailer.

Fair enough. Do you have any hard numbers that back up your implication that this activity is affecting the bottom line of most local businesses in a significant way?

Yes! It so happens that a purchase of $0 yields $0 profit. Beyond that if you just took a look at Amazon’s financial reports or Jeff Bezos’s net worth you’ll be able to quickly understand that brick and mortar stores have lost huge portions of their market share over the last 2 decades.

Also, please explain how you would be able to tell the difference between a customer who enters a store to browse a product, ask questions, etc. and leaves without buying anything and one who enters a store with no intention of buying anything to browse a product, ask questions, etc., leaves, and goes home and buys the product online.

The difference is simply in the sales numbers at the end of the year. Nobody has suggested retailers could spot a leech as they enter the store nor has there been a suggestion that if they could do such a thing they should or could take actions to deny that person service. For better or worse, good customer service means taking abuse but hoping the customer is there in good faith.

My point is, it’s the business owner’s responsibility to earn a customer’s business.

Again, painfully obvious. AND it is the moral responsibility of the customer not to enter into a store with the intent of wasting the time of an employee or consuming a valuable service at no cost (ie the very existence of that location). It’s like a return policy: if you buy a camera with the intention of using it and then returning it for a full refund then you’re just a terrible person or at least a leach on society.

If people are coming into your store to fiddle with a product before heading home to buy it online, the only thing you can do about it is to ask why people are doing that and adjust your business model accordingly - because if you don’t, you are going to suffer more than the customer you just lost.

And if people are simply inherently immoral and will never pay for a valuable service if it means a single dollar more out of their pocket then physical locations are simply screwed.

 

[mamallama]

I suspect a real challenge for local stores is potential customers taking up staff time in getting recommendations and getting to try out stuff and then going home and ordering what the store recommended on line to save a few dollars. I guess those customers think they are getting the best of both worlds - knowledgeable advice from the local store and good prices from the on-line store.

If the store cannot price match, then yes, that is a problem.

The reason they cannot price match is because they have higher overhead costs by providing hands on try outs by consumers.

B&H, Adorama, and Best Buy also have physical locations, high rent overheads, and allow customers to physically fondle merchandise before purchasing.

It's a matter of what volume being supported by online sales. It is dubious how much longer Best Buy can continue the practice. Stores like Fry's long ago stopped the practice but they still cannot survive the onslaught of the internet.

Fry’s has been circling the drain for years now not because of online competition, but because of poor business management and destroying relationships with manufacturers and creditors to the point where they are operating on a pure consignment model now, that has led to rows and rows of empty shelves in the stores that are still open.

Comparatively speaking, Best Buy is doing quite well as a consumer electronics retailer. They have survived other companies like CompUSA, Incredible Universe, Circuit City, Goodguys, and Radio Shack by being more forward looking and leveraging their online sales strategy with their brick and mortar locations, which gives them the best of both worlds in retail.

Yet Best Buy has been reducing the number and types of cameras they power up for customers to play with and blocking the access to the SD card slot to prevent customers from bringing their own cards to take sample pictures to compare. Last holiday season my trips to Best Buy found the camera department almost empty while the rest of the store was crowded.

 

[Interpol]

And if people are simply inherently immoral and will never pay for a valuable service if it means a single dollar more out of their pocket then physical locations are simply screwed.

You’re assuming that local businesses are unable to compete with the big boxes and online players. I don’t believe that’s true. The big boys may have a competitive advantage on pricing due to their buying power and consumer reach, but the local businesses have the advantage of better and more personalized customer service as well as the ability to provide instant gratification. Thus, the only battleground left is price.

Most people shop more on price considerations than convenience or customer service. If physical locations cannot compete on all three levels (and they already have the advantage on two) regardless of what kind of customers walk through their door, they deserve to be screwed. Sorry, but that’s the truth. Because God knows, you won’t be able to change the attitudes of these leeches you’re talking about. They’re still going to visit these local shops and take advantage of them every chance they get, so why not come up with incentives to get them to buy from you instead of online? What’s the alternative, putting up a sign that says “do not enter unless you have the good faith intention to buy something”?

 

[Interpol]

Yet Best Buy has been reducing the number and types of cameras they power up for customers to play with and blocking the access to the SD card slot to prevent customers from bringing their own cards to take sample pictures to compare. Last holiday season my trips to Best Buy found the camera department almost empty while the rest of the store was crowded.

This is not the case with the Best Buy locations near me.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

What’s a camera store?

 

[mamallama]

What’s a camera store?

That's a good question. Is a big box corporate store with a big online presence that sell cameras a camera store?

 

[Thomas A Anderson]

And if people are simply inherently immoral and will never pay for a valuable service if it means a single dollar more out of their pocket then physical locations are simply screwed.

You’re assuming that local businesses are unable to compete with the big boxes and online players. I don’t believe that’s true.

Where have I made any such assumption? Did I state an opinion on where the consumer market is headed? My only position is to advocate for consumers not being jerks by abusing retail stores.

The big boys may have a competitive advantage on pricing due to their buying power and consumer reach, but the local businesses have the advantage of better and more personalized customer service as well as the ability to provide instant gratification. Thus, the only battleground left is price.

And consumers have to have just a little bit of integrity to value service. Look at Amazon’s growth and see that most people care about a dime more than local jobs or the local tax base.

Most people shop more on price considerations than convenience or customer service. If physical locations cannot compete on all three levels (and they already have the advantage on two) regardless of what kind of customers walk through their door, they deserve to be screwed.

Then we as consumers deserve to only see pictures and reviews of products we wish to buy.

Sorry, but that’s the truth.

Who in the actual frack is disagreeing?

Because God knows, you won’t be able to change the attitudes of these leeches you’re talking about.

Which is why China and Amazon (Jeff, not his employees) are doing so well.

They’re still going to visit these local shops and take advantage of them every chance they get, so why not come up with incentives to get them to buy from you instead of online?

Which they are. Competition is competition.

What’s the alternative, putting up a sign that says “do not enter unless you have the good faith intention to buy something”?

I don’t understand what you’re taking umbrage with. Do you think consumers are incapable of being thoughtless, shortsighted, self-centered jerks? They can’t act to betray their own long term self interest? Or does money or legality imply it’s therefore right or good? Yes, consumers can do anything that is legal. Yes, business have to deal with reality. But the economy does not imply any action in that realm is good and moral so long as it is legal. And people being jerks is something businesses have dealt with since the first rock got traded for a stick the day after we came out of the trees.

You’re inventing a world view that literally nobody has. I guess because you just want to disagree with someone? Carry on in my absence.

 

[Thomas A Anderson]

Yet Best Buy has been reducing the number and types of cameras they power up for customers to play with and blocking the access to the SD card slot to prevent customers from bringing their own cards to take sample pictures to compare. Last holiday season my trips to Best Buy found the camera department almost empty while the rest of the store was crowded.

This is not the case with the Best Buy locations near me.

Then it’s in the minority.

 

[Interpol]

Where have I made any such assumption? Did I state an opinion on where the consumer market is headed? My only position is to advocate for consumers not being jerks by abusing retail stores.

Yeah well, good luck with that.

And consumers have to have just a little bit of integrity to value service. Look at Amazon’s growth and see that most people care about a dime more than local jobs or the local tax base.

I don't disagree. I just have no idea how one would enforce such an attitude. Do you?

I don’t understand what you’re taking umbrage with. Do you think consumers are incapable of being thoughtless, shortsighted, self-centered jerks?

Not at all. I'm saying that business owners have absolutely no control over who walks into their store or what intentions they may have. If someone comes in intending to use a storefront as a showroom only, there is a reason why they're doing that - and most of the time, it's because they can get a better price online. So why not give them a better reason to buy from you instead of from Amazon by offering a competitive price? That doesn't mean you have to match online prices, but you can come close enough to make a customer understand that you can pay a little more and take it home with you today instead of waiting. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Most if not all of the local camera stores I visit won't budge on their prices - it's MSRP or nothing, even if I ask if there's any wiggle room. It's perfectly within their rights to charge whatever they want for they're selling just as it's perfectly within my rights to decide if it's worth paying more than what the competition charges.

You’re inventing a world view that literally nobody has. I guess because you just want to disagree with someone? Carry on in my absence.

Will do. It's probably better that you bow out of this discussion now before you burst a blood vessel.

Then it’s in the minority.

Sure, whatever you say.

 

[Street_Photography]

I would love to support my local camera store.

If only there was one.

There used to be two within 40 minutes of me, but both are long gone.

Exactly! The time to support local camera stores has long passed in the west. Amazon helped kill them and eBay helped kill the used stores.

I am usually in Asia where camera stores still exist and it is always a pleasure to visit a new one that cares about the art of photography and good gear (apparently Tokyo has some real gems still, which is a major reason I want to visit).

I have no idea why Amazon don't operate here, as the competition is terrible (like Lazada, Shopee and Ali Express), but am delighted they don't operate here. Its annoying buying other things online but buying cameras and lenses in person is the only way to do it imo.

It's awesome being able to feel and compare different cameras and test used lenses. I have 2 stores nearby, one I bought a new lens at recently and was able to test it first. The other was a stylish used shop with some amazing old models and cool rare stuff. Visiting that place is like how others appreciate museums and art galleries. Same for teaware, everything else I am happy to buy online.

Last time I bought a new camera online I couldn't use Amazon as they didn't have a way to do the manufacturers cashback sale, but that was a few years ago, maybe they fixed that. Felt good to order online from a specialist camera store which only had about 5 shops, I knew there would be customer service.